Sens reduce capacity at Canadian Tire Centre

[ottawah]

What I know is that Phoenix is affecting nearly half of public servants by last count. That's a negative pressure on their disposable income, which is going to impact ticket sales.

It is not affecting half of public servants not even close. The number of cases is about half of what the public servants are, but many have multiple cases logged against themselves.

I work in Ottawa in the public service and know a good number (100's) of people working in it and no one I know has had an issue. Now obviously there are issues, but they seem to be mainly affecting people in shift work (which are 99% regional, not Ottawa), people on maternity/paternity/sick leave who are not likely going to game anyways.


You are very correct, however, in your comment on "disposable income". I just got my first raise in 4 years this month. It was worth 5%. And the raise before that was worth 4% for the previous 4 years. Federal servants in the past 10 years have been significantly behind the rest of the country in raises and account for 10% of all people (not just working people) in the entire region. When you consider a 66% employment participation rate that means 1 out of 6 working people are directly employed by the federal government in Ottawa, and with families with at least one public servant likely closer to 1 in 5 who before this month saw a 2% after tax raise over 8 years, that means "disposable income" in Ottawa compared to the rest of the country, inflation and game day costs, has been sinking dramatically. Its not a wonder that Attendance has taken a hit.

You can argue location (downtown attendance sucked before was great where it is now), Pheonix (which I personally do not see), but everyone I know who had cancelled season tickets through the years cite costs as the primary reason.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

I went to the home opener paid $20 for parking ( insane) and paid $28.50 for a Beer, Chicken strips, and Fries.

A bottle of Dasani water? $5.00 how about a regular sized pop? $5.50.

And Toronto is even worse... It's just pure greediness from all owners league wide.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I went to the home opener paid $20 for parking ( insane) and paid $28.50 for a Beer, Chicken strips, and Fries.

A bottle of Dasani water? $5.00 how about a regular sized pop? $5.50.

And Toronto is even worse... It's just pure greediness from all owners league wide.

I don't get why people complain about concession prices yet still purchase it

 

[OttawaSenators11]

I don't get why people complain about concession prices yet still purchase it

That's part of the problem for sure! If we all came together, those pricks would have no choice but to lower the prices.

 

[solidprospect]

I don't get why people complain about concession prices yet still purchase it

You have to park somewhere, you have to eat somewhere, and if you drink , good luck sneaking beer in with the security equal to an airport.

 

[Micklebot]

It is not affecting half of public servants not even close. The number of cases is about half of what the public servants are, but many have multiple cases logged against themselves.

I work in Ottawa in the public service and know a good number (100's) of people working in it and no one I know has had an issue. Now obviously there are issues, but they seem to be mainly affecting people in shift work (which are 99% regional, not Ottawa), people on maternity/paternity/sick leave who are not likely going to game anyways.


You are very correct, however, in your comment on "disposable income". I just got my first raise in 4 years this month. It was worth 5%. And the raise before that was worth 4% for the previous 4 years. Federal servants in the past 10 years have been significantly behind the rest of the country in raises and account for 10% of all people (not just working people) in the entire region. When you consider a 66% employment participation rate that means 1 out of 6 working people are directly employed by the federal government in Ottawa, and with families with at least one public servant likely closer to 1 in 5 who before this month saw a 2% after tax raise over 8 years, that means "disposable income" in Ottawa compared to the rest of the country, inflation and game day costs, has been sinking dramatically. Its not a wonder that Attendance has taken a hit.

You can argue location (downtown attendance sucked before was great where it is now), Pheonix (which I personally do not see), but everyone I know who had cancelled season tickets through the years cite costs as the primary reason.

The link I provided (hard to see in the new forum, so I don't blame you if you didn't notice it) suggests otherwise. Perhaps it's inaccurate, but that's what I was going off of, and based on anecdotal evidence of my own, my directorate for example has over 50% affected, myself and my wife are affected as well, none of which are shift workers, on mat/pat leave, or sick leave, I have no reason to doubt it, though perhaps the number includes pensioners and the compares it to currently working employees, idk..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-data-released-radio-canada-1.4259636

As of Aug. 8, there were 156,035 employees who had been waiting at least 30 days to have their pay complaint dealt with, ... one-half of the 313,734 public servants paid through Phoenix. It's also the first instance in which the scope of the Phoenix payroll issues has been laid clear in terms of people affected, rather than in terms of "transactions" or "cases.

 

[Micklebot]

You have to park somewhere, you have to eat somewhere, and if you drink , good luck sneaking beer in with the security equal to an airport.

I don't know, I can go 2.5 hours without needing to eat; I eat before the game and have no issues. I do typically get a drink though.

Parking, there are other options if you don't mind a short hike, but I typically park at the arena anyways.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I don't go to games because the home experience is mind blowingly better... 60 inch TV in HD... food much cheaper and better... much more comfortable chair... no lines, no commute

Going to sporting events is becoming outdated.

Agreed. Especially for older folks (mid 40s) like myself.

Hell, I haven't even been to the movie theater since The Core came out. Making close to an hour trek just to get as far west as Orleans (non game days) to catch a movie or go shopping....not worth it anymore. Just about anything can be done at home these days. We invest so much money into rent/mortgage, home electronics/entertainment, the cable package just to get Center Ice (videotron are the real crooks!)....there simply isn't the time, money nor energy to go out much anymore.

This is the way society in general is trending. We have more folks who work from home, even more kids home schooling via the internet, shopping from home....the home is the new hub of our lives.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Do you think they will flock? The sens once had a downtown arena and the attendance was not good, worst in the league in the last 35 years and that includes Pheonix .....

It will help, but flocking to the game? I do not think so.

Seriously? Do I need to explain why you're not making sense here

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Maybe, but I love the RedBlacks games. Sat/Sun party atmosphere, go down early hit the bars.

I just cannot have the same energy for an 7:30 Tuesday in February ....

I've had/has season tickets to both. I'd describe it as the RedBlacks are an event, the Sens are a game. Yes they are both "sports", but with the weather, venue and number of games its an entirely different experience.

Yeah and that's football. The sens can't make a hockey game be a football game

 

[ottawah]

The link I provided (hard to see in the new forum, so I don't blame you if you didn't notice it) suggests otherwise. Perhaps it's inaccurate, but that's what I was going off of, and based on anecdotal evidence of my own, my directorate for example has over 50% affected, myself and my wife are affected as well, none of which are shift workers, on mat/pat leave, or sick leave, I have no reason to doubt it, though perhaps the number includes pensioners and the compares it to currently working employees, idk..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-data-released-radio-canada-1.4259636

I'm wondering on the terminology in the report. Simply due to what they consider the number of cases vs the number of employees. That would indicate there is about one case per employee. That goes against what I hear on the ground which is the union telling us to ensure that we open up a new case with every discrepancy on every pay. As well, , I do tech support can literally talk to a hundred people a day, and hear the chit chat and know of no one with an issue.

Also if 70000 people in the city were not getting paid, restaurants, department stores, etc would be going out of business at a furious rate. I would say I've seen no drop off in that area.

And even if it was the case would it heavily affects thee Sens? I know a handful of season ticket holders, none are public servants. and I know a single public servant with Sens season tickets (high level EX). I know surprisingly few that even go to games. I am sure there are some, but the bigger majority are from the private sector where the pay is higher.

But better put, I have not heard a single person say they are not going to the Sens game based on Pheonix. I have heard dozens say they will not go because the cost is too high. And that was far less the case than it was ten years ago (and attendance would bear that out).

 

[JD1]

I'm wondering on the terminology in the report. Simply due to what they consider the number of cases vs the number of employees. That would indicate there is about one case per employee. That goes against what I hear on the ground which is the union telling us to ensure that we open up a new case with every discrepancy on every pay. As well, , I do tech support can literally talk to a hundred people a day, and hear the chit chat and know of no one with an issue.

Also if 70000 people in the city were not getting paid, restaurants, department stores, etc would be going out of business at a furious rate. I would say I've seen no drop off in that area.

And even if it was the case would it heavily affects thee Sens? I know a handful of season ticket holders, none are public servants. and I know a single public servant with Sens season tickets (high level EX). I know surprisingly few that even go to games. I am sure there are some, but the bigger majority are from the private sector where the pay is higher.

But better put, I have not heard a single person say they are not going to the Sens game based on Pheonix. I have heard dozens say they will not go because the cost is too high. And that was far less the case than it was ten years ago (and attendance would bear that out).

going to a Sens game is an expensive proposition. Ottawa suffers from a lack of a corporate base that buys tickets which is primarily why we have attendance challenges. I think the team does pretty well selling tickets to the average fan game to game but that only takes you so far.

Phoenix as an excuse is really grasping at straws. Yes people have pay issues. Those issues range from catastrophic to relatively simple and overpayments are an issue as well. it's not all just people not getting paid.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm wondering on the terminology in the report. Simply due to what they consider the number of cases vs the number of employees. That would indicate there is about one case per employee. That goes against what I hear on the ground which is the union telling us to ensure that we open up a new case with every discrepancy on every pay. As well, , I do tech support can literally talk to a hundred people a day, and hear the chit chat and know of no one with an issue.

Also if 70000 people in the city were not getting paid, restaurants, department stores, etc would be going out of business at a furious rate. I would say I've seen no drop off in that area.

And even if it was the case would it heavily affects thee Sens? I know a handful of season ticket holders, none are public servants. and I know a single public servant with Sens season tickets (high level EX). I know surprisingly few that even go to games. I am sure there are some, but the bigger majority are from the private sector where the pay is higher.

But better put, I have not heard a single person say they are not going to the Sens game based on Pheonix. I have heard dozens say they will not go because the cost is too high. And that was far less the case than it was ten years ago (and attendance would bear that out).

The numbers in the article are (and are for all of the system, not just Ottawa):
- 156,035 employees who have been waiting 30+ days for their case to be dealt with (this would include underpayment, overpayment, and non-payment)
- 228,000 oustanding cases, this could include multiple cases for the same employee.

Not sure where you got 70k not getting paid, but to say you've seen no drop off in department stores is a bit dubious, as many department stores have been trending down for years, and there are numerous factors involved, but beyond that, we're talking about a subset of the population, not the entirety of it. It can affect sales without crippling them you know.

Wrt your knowing public servants with season tickets; why does this matter? In a city with ~1 mil people and a season ticket base of 10k, you could probably expect maybe 1-2% of people you know to have season tickets. As for people outright saying they aren't going to games because of Phoenix, again, is this something you canvas people on? Even if you did, they'd probably just say 'too expensive' or 'can't afford it', but not being able to afford it could be in part a symptom of their messed up pay. I know thanks to my family's messed up pay, I've put off expenses and opted not to spend on things I've deemed too expensive. I don't specifically blame it on Phoenix, but you can be that's a factor.

 

[ottawah]

The numbers in the article are (and are for all of the system, not just Ottawa):
- 156,035 employees who have been waiting 30+ days for their case to be dealt with (this would include underpayment, overpayment, and non-payment)
- 228,000 oustanding cases, this could include multiple cases for the same employee.

Not sure where you got 70k not getting paid, but to say you've seen no drop off in department stores is a bit dubious, as many department stores have been trending down for years, and there are numerous factors involved, but beyond that, we're talking about a subset of the population, not the entirety of it. It can affect sales without crippling them you know.

We if the article is right and 50% of public service employees are not getting properly paid, that translates to 70,000 in Ottawa. [/quote]

Wrt your knowing public servants with season tickets; why does this matter? In a city with ~1 mil people and a season ticket base of 10k, you could probably expect maybe 1-2% of people you know to have season tickets. As for people outright saying they aren't going to games because of Phoenix, again, is this something you canvas people on? Even if you did, they'd probably just say 'too expensive' or 'can't afford it', but not being able to afford it could be in part a symptom of their messed up pay. I know thanks to my family's messed up pay, I've put off expenses and opted not to spend on things I've deemed too expensive. I don't specifically blame it on Phoenix, but you can be that's a factor.[/QUOTE]


I know about 20 season ticket holders (total seats). 1 is a government employee. And I work in the government, so I should know more. In fact ten years ago I knew a number of them, but they have all dropped their seasons tickets over the last ten years, and price is always given as the reason.

The original post implied there were 70000 people with pay issues in town that could preclude them from buying tickets. I do not believe that, I think Phoenix is having a very minor effect on attendance. I believe a far bigger factor by far is the low pay increases over the last decade which are catching up on peoples budgets. And that is a very important distinction. If Phoenix was a big driver, you can expect all those people to come back. If it has been the lacklustre pay increases, then this is a trend that will could be exasperated by increasing ticket prices substantially with a new arena.

 

[Micklebot]

We if the article is right and 50% of public service employees are not getting properly paid, that translates to 70,000 in Ottawa.

I know about 20 season ticket holders (total seats). 1 is a government employee. And I work in the government, so I should know more. In fact ten years ago I knew a number of them, but they have all dropped their seasons tickets over the last ten years, and price is always given as the reason.

The original post implied there were 70000 people with pay issues in town that could preclude them from buying tickets. I do not believe that, I think Phoenix is having a very minor effect on attendance. I believe a far bigger factor by far is the low pay increases over the last decade which are catching up on peoples budgets. And that is a very important distinction. If Phoenix was a big driver, you can expect all those people to come back. If it has been the lacklustre pay increases, then this is a trend that will could be exasperated by increasing ticket prices substantially with a new arena.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Phoenix presented as the sole driver, just rather that it is one of many factors. I'm also not sure when season tickets are your focus here, as season ticket holders represents a small fraction of individuals who go to games, abeit those particular ones go to many games.

Price is a factor, PS wages not rising in line with private sector wages is a factor, crappy parking lots causing delays is a factor ect. If there was one single issue, it would be easy to fix, but it isn't, and nobody suggest it would be. The Phoenix system is certainly a factor in Public servants spending habits, I know this from personal experience as well as anecdotal, I don't know why it wouldn't affect discresionary spending like hockey tickets, so my assumption is that others in the city are like me, and it would. maybe I'm wrong, but logic would suggest otherwise.

 

[BonkTastic]

Hell, I haven't even been to the movie theater since The Core came out.

Come on. It was certainly a bad movie, sure, but not so bad that you never go back.

 

[JD1]

I'm not sure I've ever seen Phoenix presented as the sole driver, just rather that it is one of many factors. I'm also not sure when season tickets are your focus here, as season ticket holders represents a small fraction of individuals who go to games, abeit those particular ones go to many games.

Price is a factor, PS wages not rising in line with private sector wages is a factor, crappy parking lots causing delays is a factor ect. If there was one single issue, it would be easy to fix, but it isn't, and nobody suggest it would be. The Phoenix system is certainly a factor in Public servants spending habits, I know this from personal experience as well as anecdotal, I don't know why it wouldn't affect discresionary spending like hockey tickets, so my assumption is that others in the city are like me, and it would. maybe I'm wrong, but logic would suggest otherwise.

ps wages not rising in line with private sector wages? find me one study authored by someone other than a union leader that supports that statement. I'll show you many studies that show public sector compensation is quite a bit ahead of private sector compensation

how about all that retro pay you just got? any of that going to tickets?

I've read pretty much everything that's ever hit the media that is phoenix related. haven't read anything yet that leads me to believe the journalist that wrote the article understands the situation. for that matter....they get all these supposed experts from various walks of life to comment on the situation and it's evident that most of those folks don't understand what they are commenting on.

it's complicated for sure but the notion that there are thousands of people in ottawa not getting paid is simply not true. problems? issues? unanswered questions? sure. not getting paid at all? that's not really happening.

 

[Knave]

I'm wondering on the terminology in the report. Simply due to what they consider the number of cases vs the number of employees. That would indicate there is about one case per employee. That goes against what I hear on the ground which is the union telling us to ensure that we open up a new case with every discrepancy on every pay. As well, , I do tech support can literally talk to a hundred people a day, and hear the chit chat and know of no one with an issue.

Also if 70000 people in the city were not getting paid, restaurants, department stores, etc would be going out of business at a furious rate. I would say I've seen no drop off in that area.

And even if it was the case would it heavily affects thee Sens? I know a handful of season ticket holders, none are public servants. and I know a single public servant with Sens season tickets (high level EX). I know surprisingly few that even go to games. I am sure there are some, but the bigger majority are from the private sector where the pay is higher.

But better put, I have not heard a single person say they are not going to the Sens game based on Pheonix. I have heard dozens say they will not go because the cost is too high. And that was far less the case than it was ten years ago (and attendance would bear that out).

What is the first thing to go when you have to cut back your expenses? It's going to be stuff like the Senators and other discretionary spending items.

It's obviously not all Phoenix.

I think a big part is the lack of enthusiasm for the team throughout the city. We took the Penguins to game 7 and they won the cup... you wouldn't think it.

 

[NyQuil]

I think a big part is the lack of enthusiasm for the team throughout the city. We took the Penguins to game 7 and they won the cup... you wouldn't think it.

I think there's a degree of heartbreak and fatigue.

We threw everything we had at that playoff run and still came up short. With Methot and MacArthur gone, and different match-ups this year, people may be more cynical about our chances.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Just for comparison sake how much were tickets back in the pizza line days compared to what they are now

 

[thinkwild]

If we had a catastrophic hurricane, lost power across the city, and someone tried to sell water at the prices they do at hockey games, they would surely be charged with gouging. Pro hockey is a luxury event pushing the bounds of decency on pricing. Not something the average mortgaged family of four can be expected to do their duty for. The team has to make that value proposition. And when they do, they have been rewarded with great ticket sales.

We fans don’t owe sell-outs like the big markets, regardless of pricing and buzz. I don’t know how that became the minimum acceptable standard in this new era of flagging attendance and sky high prices in all sports leagues. Sure hope we don’t start applying that standard to movie theaters, restaurants, and bars.

Getting season ticket sales up to over 13,000, something I don’t think the Sens ever had, is surely critical to the teams long term success. Tarping might help create the scarcity needed, especially if moving into a new arena.

 

[JD1]

Just for comparison sake how much were tickets back in the pizza line days compared to what they are now

that was a long time ago and my memory might be a bit fuzzy but I recall paying 450 ish for a pair in the low ball for a final game in 07.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

But aren't most of the empty seats the cheapest ones in the arena?

 

[coladin]

But aren't most of the empty seats the cheapest ones in the arena?

Yes. It doesn't make sense . But it does a little bit listening to all the excuses. If there are so many excuses, and we have seen many, it is because the general malaise with regards to the team. I don't believe a new owner, a new arena, a "better game experience" will change that.

Only new fans will. The older jaded ones are lost. They can't even enjoy the last three games without finding something negative. Hopefully up and coming fans will decide to be a fan and start with those cheap, tarped seats. And then as they become bigger fans invest more.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Come on. It was certainly a bad movie, sure, but not so bad that you never go back.

Lol, I'm a sucker for disaster/end of the world movies. Actually liked The Core. Excellent lineup of (mostly) A-grade actors, too.

But yeah, it really isn't worth the drive and cost, when you can get the dvd for less than a movie ticket + snacks these days.