TSN: Senators lose 1st round pick in '24, '25 or '26 as penalty for Dadonov fiasco

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

That would be pretty dumb of the board...

Hey, one of our guys is being investigated by the league for gross negligence, should we probe the league to see how serious this is, or just ask the guy being investigated what's up?

Like asking OJ why Nicole isn't around...

Why would the board care? Dorion wasn't "their" guy. They were a transitory group put in place to get the thing sold off for the Melnyk family. They cared about getting the most for the sale of the team. They knew they wouldn't be around next year.

It was in their best interest to believe Dorion at his word and look away. As with Vegas, most people don't go into situations with the assumption that someone is lying. They take people at their word.

Plus, they weren't hockey people. If they heard something like, "Oh, the RCMP is investigating, and it may be a criminal case with significant fines..." that would have raised flags. That's serious.

But "It was something that happened on a trade call, and the penalty might be a draft pick"? Yeah, I don't think that raises alarm bells for lawyers and bankers who don't care about prospect pools.

 

[Micklebot]

Why would the board care? Dorion wasn't "their" guy. They were a transitory group put in place to get the thing sold off for the Melnyk family. They cared about getting the most for the sale of the team. They knew they wouldn't be around next year.

It was in their best interest to believe Dorion at his word and look away. As with Vegas, most people don't go into situations with the assumption that someone is lying. They take people at their word.

Plus, they weren't hockey people. If they heard something like, "Oh, the RCMP is investigating, and it may be a criminal case with significant fines..." that would have raised flags. That's serious.

But "It was something that happened on a trade call, and the penalty might be a draft pick"? Yeah, I don't think that raises alarm bells for lawyers and bankers who don't care about prospect pools.

Because they have a legal obligation to not misrepresent the facts during the sale process? The point is it's pretty negligent to rely on the word of the accused when disclosing how serious a transgression is.

If the board misrepresented the situation, they've opened themselves up to liability. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that a board Melnyk put together would be unconcerned with potential ramifications of their own unscrupulous conduct...

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Because they have a legal obligation to not misrepresent the facts during the sale process? The point is it's pretty negligent to rely on the word of the accused when disclosing how serious a transgression is.

If the board misrepresented the situation, they've opened themselves up to liability. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that a board Melnyk put together would be unconcerned with potential ramifications of their own unscrupulous conduct...

Again, in the real world of lawyers and bankers, this is not and was not a serious transgression. A serious transgression involves the CSA or SEC.

Andlauer essentially said it himself. He was told that there was an investigation but that it was "not of concern". Basically, it was minor. He then said that a 1st round pick was a concern "for him."

Both these things can be true.

For Galatioto bankers, a team potentially losing a draft pick wouldn't have moved the needle of concern. It's "minor". Not material to the transaction.

I get him being pissed. But it doesn't really sound like the league or sellers did anything wrong.

At the end of the day, I do expect it to be downgraded, just like it was for the Devils. We'll probably keep the 2026 1st but it'll be 32nd OA. Yesterday was just Andlauer kicking off that process.

 

[GCK]

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[Micklebot]

Again, in the real world of lawyers and bankers, this is not and was not a serious transgression. A serious transgression involves the CSA or SEC.

Andlauer essentially said it himself. He was told that there was an investigation but that it was "not of concern". Basically, it was minor. He then said that a 1st round pick was a concern "for him."

Both these things can be true.

For Galatioto bankers, a team potentially losing a draft pick wouldn't have moved the needle of concern. It's "minor". Not material to the transaction.

I get him being pissed. But it doesn't really sound like the league or sellers did anything wrong.

At the end of the day, I do expect it to be downgraded, just like it was for the Devils. Yesterday was just Andlauer kicking off that process.

So, again, what I'm taking issue with is the suggestion that they went to Dorion to figure out how serious it is, not that they determined it wasn't a big deal. You seem to think it's fine that they might have gone to the person being investigated to get an idea of how serious things were, I think anyone with even a shred of common sense would not. Should the Blackhawks have asked Brad Aldrich if the instigation into his actions were a big deal? 2 mil fine wouldn't impact their long term profits after all... so it was really immaterial, right?

 

[Tuna99]

This is 100% on Dorion but if Vegas had given the agent a heads up that they were about to trade him to Anaheim this could have been avoided but, alas, Vegas typically lets players find out they were traded via media. It was common know they were shopping him with a sweetener.

My guess is Dorion gambled that Vegas wouldn’t get traded Dadonov or Daddy would be traded to the other 20 teams not on his NTL and he took the chance things would work out - and they didn’t

 

[BondraTime]

This is 100% on Dorion but if Vegas had given the agent a heads up that they were about to trade him to Anaheim this could have been avoided but, alas, Vegas typically lets players find out they were traded via media. It was common know they were shopping him with a sweetener.

Like you said, 100% on Dorion and Ottawa by extension, and Vegas has zero obligation to do that.

Is it something that's good to do? Definitely

Is it contractually obligated? No

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

So, again, what I'm taking issue with is the suggestion that they went to Dorion to figure out how serious it is, not that they determined it wasn't a big deal. You seem to think it's fine that they might have gone to the person being investigated to get an idea of how serious things were, I think anyone with even a shred of common sense would not. Should the Blackhawks have asked Brad Aldrich if the instigation into his actions were a big deal? 2 mil fine wouldn't impact their long term profits after all... so it was really immaterial, right?

Even if Gary Bettman had told a banker, "We're investigating the GM, and we may penalize them by taking away a 1st round pick," the banker likely would have said, "That's it? Cool, that seems like a minor in-league thing. Come back to me if there's something serious."

Even if Dorion told the board, "Oh yeah, I didn't tell them about the NTL and we might lose a 1st." The bankers and lawyers would have been... "That doesn't seem that serious. Thanks for the heads up, but a draft pick is not material to this transaction."

What happened with Chicago and Aldrich is a completely different scale of offence. That was criminality. Evil. It cannot even be compared to this. Everyone should rightfully pile on the league and Bettman for how lightly that franchise got off.

But that's irrelevant in the discussion of whether the seller, or league, should have given Andlauer more context into what might have happened with Dorion on a trade call. "An investigation is taking place, but it's not serious", from a lawyer's perspective, was probably the exact right way to put it.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Punishment is pretty appropriate regardless.

Vegas can argue that they wasted their precious time dealing with Anaheim, and because of that they were f***ed due to the cap and not being able to move Dadonov, that likely cost them a spot in the playoffs and xxx amount of revenue.

There is a gigantic butterfly effect of costs that can be rightfully argued, if it were to go to a trial I'm sure you of all people would understand the lability Ottawa would likely be under.

Punishment is absolutely not appropriate, and most people agree with me. This should have been a large fine or maybe a 2nd round pick. And lol @ Vegas arguing that this potentially cost them the playoffs.

 

[Razor Face]

nah... losing a mid round pick that only has a .0003% chance of hitting wouldn't be much of a deterrent, would it? A 1st round pick is perfectly appropriate. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I also said fine Dorion. Go troll on the main boards if you don't have anything intelligent to contribute

 

[RC51]

easy fix. trade your 1st round pick to a team at 30-32 pick get some compensation for moving down, then offer the number 30-32 as nhl penalty, it's still a 1st rounder.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Would have been easier to do that if the NHL had been upfront about the investigation and potential consequences in the sale process.

I liked this post just for the new avatar.

 

[Cosmix]

Didn’t Friedman say that when the nhl provides their announcement, it will be crystal clear why the senators are being punished (juxtaposed against the pinto announcement which was super vague).

This one is just as vague

Below is the entire NHL release on the matter:

"ByNHL Public Relations
@PR_NHL
November 01, 2023

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NEW YORK – TORONTO – The National Hockey League today announced that the Ottawa Senators will forfeit a first-round draft pick for their role in the July 2021 trade of Player Evgenii Dadonov from the Senators to the Vegas Golden Knights and the subsequent, invalidated March 2022 Dadonov trade between the Golden Knights and the Anaheim Ducks.
Ottawa will forfeit its first-round draft pick in one of the 2024, 2025 or 2026 Drafts. The determination as to which pick will be forfeited will be made by Ottawa within 24 hours of the conclusion of the Draft Lottery for that year. The League will have no further comment on the matter."

First, the NHL suspends Pinto without transparency and details as to why. Now the NHL issues this loss of a number 1 draft pick without transparency and details as to why.

The NHL PR department is adopting "cover-up" strategies. Total BS!

View attachment 761198

Good riddance! He should never have been appointed GM.

 

[Micklebot]

Didn’t Friedman say that when the nhl provides their announcement, it will be crystal clear why the senators are being punished (juxtaposed against the pinto announcement which was super vague).

This one is just as vague

To be fair, it was crystal clear to Andlauer.

I'm not sure what benefit it does to drag the team and presumably Dorion through the mud by publicly detailing exactly how they f'd it up.

 

[starling]

I want to see that 73-page report actually.

 

[Cosmix]

Even if Gary Bettman had told a banker, "We're investigating the GM, and we may penalize them by taking away a 1st round pick," the banker likely would have said, "That's it? Cool, that seems like a minor in-league thing. Come back to me if there's something serious."

Even if Dorion told the board, "Oh yeah, I didn't tell them about the NTL and we might lose a 1st." The bankers and lawyers would have been... "That doesn't seem that serious. Thanks for the heads up, but a draft pick is not material to this transaction."

What happened with Chicago and Aldrich is a completely different scale of offence. That was criminality. Evil. It cannot even be compared to this. Everyone should rightfully pile on the league and Bettman for how lightly that franchise got off.

But that's irrelevant in the discussion of whether the seller, or league, should have given Andlauer more context into what might have happened with Dorion on a trade call. "An investigation is taking place, but it's not serious", from a lawyer's perspective, was probably the exact right way to put it.

The loss of a first round draft pick is serious for what might have been a miscommunication. But the NHL has decided that the public should not be given the details of what happened.

To be fair, it was crystal clear to Andlauer.

I'm not sure what benefit it does to drag the team and presumably Dorion through the mud by publicly detailing exactly how they f'd it up.

There should be an explanation as to why this level of punishment was applied. If Dorion was guilty of lying then that is on him.

easy fix. trade your 1st round pick to a team at 30-32 pick get some compensation for moving down, then offer the number 30-32 as nhl penalty, it's still a 1st rounder.

The team cannot do that; it must be an Ottawa Senator's first round draft pick.

 

[BondraTime]

To be fair, it was crystal clear to Andlauer.

I'm not sure what benefit it does to drag the team and presumably Dorion through the mud by publicly detailing exactly how they f'd it up.

Exactly.

It's black and white, the Sens screwed the pooch. There is no gray area, it wasn't a simple misunderstanding. It was negligence causing a very large ripple effect throughout the league. Punishment was without a doubt needed. Was it harsh? Absolutely, but it wasn't egregious by any means. It will hopefully/likely get bumped down a tad, but punishment was always likely, even a year ago I believed the Sens should/would be punished.

They aren't going to say exactly what was done, we already know for the most part what happened. We can colour in the rest ourselves, and it doesn't really matter what colour we use.

 

[Cosmix]

My guess is Dorion gambled that Vegas wouldn’t get traded Dadonov or Daddy would be traded to the other 20 teams not on his NTL and he took the chance things would work out - and they didn’t

I think Dorion was sloppy in his discussion, not lying, in the trade review call. Deliberately lying would be stupid.

Exactly.

It's black and white, the Sens screwed the pooch. There is no gray area, it wasn't a simple misunderstanding. It was negligence causing a very large ripple effect throughout the league.

They aren't going to say exactly what was done, we already know for the most part what happened. We can colour in the rest ourselves, and it doesn't really matter what colour we use.

No we do not know who said what and when. The details have not been released and the NHL has chosen to use a "cover-ip" PR strategy.

 

[Cosmix]

They very clearly had good reason to punish the team. They should release the 74 page report.

Andlauer never seemed to dispute the validity of the punishment. The argument was that punishing a new ownership group for something that did not take place under their watch doesn't make sense, and the league never disclosed the possibility that he would face such a steep punishment during the purchase of the team.

Realistically, unless they found that Melnyk played a part in the great Dadonov heist, Dorion should have been punished directly by the league. You can argue about how much punishment losing his job is when it was already telegraphed to happen, but some sort of suspension from the league or fine would likely be a greater deterrent to future GMs than the loss of a draft pick that they won't benefit from anyways.

The NHL is not punishing a new ownership group; it is punishing the franchise (team).

It's not farfetched to believe that the "board" – who did not care about the on-ice product or day-to-day goings on and were purely trying to maximize the sale price – were made aware of the investigation and asked Pierre Dorion if there was anything to it.

Dorion, being the liar he is, told them there was nothing to it, and he wasn't concerned.

The board then communicated that to Andlauer during due diligence. "There is an investigation, but it's not of concern."

It all comes down to Dorion.

The Board has a duty to ensure that the information they provided to potential new ownership groups is correct and complete in all material respects. If it fails to perform its duties responsibly, then it could be held accountable through a legal process.

 

[GCK]

The NHL is not punishing a new ownership group; it is punishing the franchise (team).

Really the NHL is punishing the fans more than anyone. Years of Melnyk/Dorion followed by making it more challenging for the new regime.

F**K Betteman

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

On the one hand, Simmer's done a lot to tank his reputation as a reliable source. On the other hand, it sure would explain why the punishment was so harsh and why Andlauer was so adamant about the team being solely responsible. Malice vs. incompetence.

Simmer said he was told something and it was probably in confidence, but whatever he already tweeted about it, so here it is. Burning bridges?

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

I guess Melnyks daughters were a chip off the old block after all

Them being minority owners going forward definitely won’t be awkward

 

[BondraTime]

I guess Melnyks daughters were a chip off the old block after all

Them being minority owners going forward definitely won’t be awkward

They're probably innocent in this, I doubt either had much of anything to do with it. They are like 20 years old.

They are set up to just profit off their ownership, if they want anything to do with the team they can pound sand for all I care

 

[SanderSen]

I look at Pinto and now this, and just have to wonder what the treatment would have been in an original six or big market coddled by the NHL. It is sooo convenient to "make an example" with the Senators.

Now any chance the Sens get the pick loss waived like Jersey did for cap manipulation and avoidance? Do not hold your breath.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

Again, in the real world of lawyers and bankers, this is not and was not a serious transgression. A serious transgression involves the CSA or SEC.

Andlauer essentially said it himself. He was told that there was an investigation but that it was "not of concern". Basically, it was minor. He then said that a 1st round pick was a concern "for him."

Both these things can be true.

For Galatioto bankers, a team potentially losing a draft pick wouldn't have moved the needle of concern. It's "minor". Not material to the transaction.

I get him being pissed. But it doesn't really sound like the league or sellers did anything wrong.

At the end of the day, I do expect it to be downgraded, just like it was for the Devils. We'll probably keep the 2026 1st but it'll be 32nd OA. Yesterday was just Andlauer kicking off that process.

If it was Melnyk that bought the team and not Andlauer, he would be suing the league, the previous owners, and pushing for a criminal investigation.