Sell me on Analytics... then sell me on ours

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Analytics has nothing to do with Toronto's salary cap distribution
nobody could convince me saying one should disperse $40 million to 4 guys.
In fact taking an analytical approach would say you absolutely shouldn't do that, regardless of what the Dom from the athletic says.
 
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Colorado, the Hurricanes and Tampa have invested in them and they have likely some of the best front offices in the league.

Analytics are just a tool to help decision making, it's not a philosophy or a specific playing style of the game. too many people make broad assumptions about their use in sports (and especially hockey) which leads to a lot of straw men type arguments that get thrown around particularly against their use.

So, then are you concluding they are necessary but that ours is not effective as currently constructed?
 
If there ever was a team to prove analytics are limited it’s this team.

Hockey isn’t math, stats are instructive but also flawed in totality.
 
Analytics are a good supplement to a management and coaching staff that is well versed in hockey culture and playoff hockey to gain the edge.

But I often wonder if we’re seeing a Leafs game plan built to generate stats totals like number of passes attempted and % completed, total time with puck on stick and clock time in the offensive zone which results in good metrics while actually not particularly dangerous.

Sometimes you just need a chip and chase down the boards and a hard board battle and recovery but we curl back for the extra 3 steam boats and complete 2 extra touches of the puck which looks good on paper until that puck is turned over with momentum going the other way.

Imagine if the players and their agents somehow found out exactly what the Leafs are tracking / valuing with all their bean-counting?

Last year, Washington Capitals coach Barry Trotz accused some players of shooting on goal even with little to no chance of scoring, just so they could pad their stats. “We have businessmen” in this league, said Trotz to USA Today, “they will throw pucks from anywhere to get a better Corsi.”

This may very well be one of the biggest frustrations of modern day hockey coaching.
 
Those stats usually work on a full season if not more. They can't explain three games.
It's like playing dice. Just because you have maybe 10% more chance than the other, does not mean you won't loose here and there.

This being said, if you look at the line up, it is too top down heavy. It's the gamble they took, and that means less depth, so players are more tired, especially if the game gets physical. It's important to be able to rely on all your lines in the playoffs. If you have only one line, it is easy to stop. Normally they would have had two, but with Tavares out, it meant Matthews playing almost 30 minutes a game, which is insane when the optimum is usually 18-20 for a first line.

Also, stats are useless in games where there is a skin in the game. Like when faced with elimination, you can't rely on above average chances. You need something more. Like in the last game, the Habs played defense the last period, chipping the puck away asap. It's not good stat wise, but it worked. They are a decent team five on five as well generally, but poor in PP usually. So not having a lot of penalties helped them quite a bit. Also shots from the perimeter. Price is perfect with those, not so much in the slot or of course deviations.

Some of those things can be seen in stats, some don't. But it's not something that can be predicted really. Not sure how useful those stats are. I certainly would not use them to build a team that wants to compete in the playoffs. Could work for the regular season though. If they truly followed stats though, I think they would find the cheapest players that bring the most at all positions, taking into account special teams. So superstars would probably be out. They ask too much money for what they bring. A real moneyball team would have four good lines that simply rotate no matter what at about the same pace. I don't see any team doing that.
 
easy if the data isn't correlated to winning, it's just noise.

if the data is important... why couldn't we use it to close out the series?

Do you understand how correlation works before throwing the word around? Unless the correlation is perfect, it doesn't mean the two data pieces always happen together. Your second statement suggests you think if data is presently showing a strong correlation, then "it should always work". Clearly not how data works...
 
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Those stats usually work on a full season if not more. They can't explain three games.
It's like playing dice. Just because you have maybe 10% more chance than the other, does not mean you won't loose here and there.

This being said, if you look at the line up, it is too top down heavy. It's the gamble they took, and that means less depth, so players are more tired, especially if the game gets physical. It's important to be able to rely on all your lines in the playoffs. If you have only one line, it is easy to stop. Normally they would have had two, but with Tavares out, it meant Matthews playing almost 30 minutes a game, which is insane when the optimum is usually 18-20 for a first line.

Also, stats are useless in games where there is a skin in the game. Like when faced with elimination, you can't rely on above average chances. You need something more. Like in the last game, the Habs played defense the last period, chipping the puck away asap. It's not good stat wise, but it worked. They are a decent team five on five as well generally, but poor in PP usually. So not having a lot of penalties helped them quite a bit. Also shots from the perimeter. Price is perfect with those, not so much in the slot or of course deviations.

Some of those things can be seen in stats, some don't. But it's not something that can be predicted really. Not sure how useful those stats are. I certainly would not use them to build a team that wants to compete in the playoffs. Could work for the regular season though. If they truly followed stats though, I think they would find the cheapest players that bring the most at all positions, taking into account special teams. So superstars would probably be out. They ask too much money for what they bring. A real moneyball team would have four good lines that simply rotate no matter what at about the same pace. I don't see any team doing that.

Good post.

This is something that I said after last playoffs. Leafs needed scoring depth, and since the cap is staying the same and the BIG Four ain't going nowhere, Keefe needs to find ways to spread the offence. One of the ways is to split the Big Four in three lines. Their individual stats might hurt but the team should have more Wins. When play together Marner and AM might end up with 2 points each in a game, thats only 2 goals for the Leafs, but they are feeding off each other, if they are split up and still manage to get 2 points each in a game, it most likely mean the team scored more than 2 goals.
The other thing is let these 11mil plus players make the other players better(outperform their contracts) Bc it is a lot easier for players jumping from 20pts to 40 pts a season than from 80pts to 160pts.
 
The irony is Dubas went away from analytics to get plugs like Thornton and Simmonds to appease you anti analytics and they lay an absolute egg all season.

also Tampa, best team in the league, runs on analytics. Hopefully fits your narrative.
 
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Hockey analytics has a lot of blind spots. Sure you can figure out that, for example, the stretch pass is effective x% of the time, but can you tell me what else is happening on the ice to make it work? It just can't match the reliability of baseball's sabermetrics and probably won't until we have super sophisticated AI or something.
 
The irony is Dubas went away from analytics to get plugs like Thornton and Simmonds to appease you anti analytics and they lay an absolute egg all season.

also Tampa, best team in the league, runs on analytics. Hopefully fits your narrative.

The success of an executive is being able to execute the vision with the right pieces. The direction was correct but the player selection fizzled out.
 
When you have the sort of insurmountable wealth that the Leafs do, it would be gross incompetence not to accumulate and process as much information as possible in pursuit of a tactical advantage.

Whether the information our front office accumulates is useful or if our personnel is even intellectually capable or discerning it, I have no idea.
 
The irony is Dubas went away from analytics to get plugs like Thornton and Simmonds to appease you anti analytics and they lay an absolute egg all season.

also Tampa, best team in the league, runs on analytics. Hopefully fits your narrative.


Expecting “leadership” from a 41 year old lifetime loser who’s never won a big game in his life shows just how clueless this GM is.
 
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The primary value of analytics is that it allows unqualified and inexperienced little kids to compile mountains of irrelevant statistics and fool people into believing they actually know what they’re doing.
 
You're lying to yourself if you're trying to believe they mean anything at all. A failing salesman can try to sell you them but he'd just be bullshitting, cause they are bullshit.
 
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The primary value of analytics is that it allows unqualified and inexperienced little kids to compile mountains of irrelevant statistics and fool people into believing they actually know what they’re doing.

watch out for the guy who’s been here since Friday. Must of got the old account deleted.
 
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The irony is Dubas went away from analytics to get plugs like Thornton and Simmonds to appease you anti analytics and they lay an absolute egg all season.

also Tampa, best team in the league, runs on analytics. Hopefully fits your narrative.

Uh oh here it is. Lets blame Thornton and Simmonds again for us losing this series because we don't want to blame the guys who have those nice analytics yet don't produce. It's ok, not all analytics are good and useful. Dermott an analytics darling and he cost us a game. Sandin is another and he cost us a game. Galchenyuk is in the middle I guess. I guess that doesn't fit your narrative though, right? Some of you analytics people expect people to believe in these stats when you can't even admit when they are wrong and that these analytic darling players don't produce you just make excuses and try and blame 4th line players making league minimum and barely played. Get out of here with that nonsense. Also teams like Tampa don't just look for the perfect shot from the slot and will score goals anyway they can and most importantly their star players produce like star players.
 
Uh oh here it is. Lets blame Thornton and Simmonds again for us losing this series because we don't want to blame the guys who have those nice analytics yet don't produce. It's ok, not all analytics are good and useful. Dermott an analytics darling and he cost us a game. Sandin is another and he cost us a game. Galchenyuk is in the middle I guess. I guess that doesn't fit your narrative though, right? Some of you analytics people expect people to believe in these stats when you can't even admit when they are wrong and that these analytic darling players don't produce you just make excuses and try and blame 4th line players making league minimum and barely played. Get out of here with that nonsense. Also teams like Tampa don't just look for the perfect shot from the slot and will score goals anyway they can and most importantly their star players produce like star players.


You should apply to be a NHL GM. You got it all figured out.

30 of the 31 teams have an analytics department though so that might be a tad weird for ya
 
Also wow, hockey players make mistakes and it costs them hockey games? Shocker. I didn’t know that’s how teams lost.

Imagine defending Thornton and Simmonds to harp on Analytics. Imagine liking a sport and knowing nothing about it. Good times.
 
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Bottom line: he can't see the forest for the trees. He's using historical data, the future is fluid.
 
Tampa got swept by Columbus after having the best season ever and then won the cup the next year.

One season means literally nothing to the next.

bbb they ggggggot to the fffffinal before that.

cool, then got swept after a record season. Then won the cup.

welcome to sports
 
Good post.

This is something that I said after last playoffs. Leafs needed scoring depth, and since the cap is staying the same and the BIG Four ain't going nowhere, Keefe needs to find ways to spread the offence. One of the ways is to split the Big Four in three lines. Their individual stats might hurt but the team should have more Wins. When play together Marner and AM might end up with 2 points each in a game, thats only 2 goals for the Leafs, but they are feeding off each other, if they are split up and still manage to get 2 points each in a game, it most likely mean the team scored more than 2 goals.
The other thing is let these 11mil plus players make the other players better(outperform their contracts) Bc it is a lot easier for players jumping from 20pts to 40 pts a season than from 80pts to 160pts.
They had depth scoring. Top end scoring is what killed them
 

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