Confirmed with Link: Schmid and Holtz traded to VGK for Paul Cotter and 2025 3rd rounder

[Xirik]

 

[NJDevs26]

So Schmid didn't actually sign anywhere yet? Guess he had less value than Holtz after all lol

 

[Triumph]

So Schmid didn't actually sign anywhere yet? Guess he had less value than Holtz after all lol

He's going to sign with Vegas, that was made clear yesterday. It's almost certainly a formality.

 

[NJDevs26]

Well they're taking a long time to hammer out a supposed nothing deal while he's now a UFA, at least with the McLeod example he did re-sign just before or just after UFA started.

 

[JrFischer54]

So Schmid didn't actually sign anywhere yet? Guess he had less value than Holtz after all lol

well everyone did see how shitty he played last year. sure he had a great playoffs the season before then shit the bed in round 2. the league is littered with goalies that get hot for a while then poof they are gone like keyser soze.

even if they get a deal done and he stays still funny and shows he has little value they weren't worried someone would offer him a deal.

two nothing players traded for a nothing player that is more physical which is light years better then holtz

 

[bossram]

He never showed much reason to have belief in him. I don't know that I have seen a putative scoreline player be worse than Holtz in 22-23. That said, he should've been sent to the minors earlier that year, but keeping a high pick in the minors does not somehow maintain their value. Everybody knows that a 7th overall in the minors in their D+3 is not a great sign.

I mean, he kinda did. He was drafted almost entirely because of goal-scoring and having a high-end shot, not for any other qualities. That's the player they should have known they were getting.

He showed he can do that at the AHL level, and fairly efficiently (in low TOI) at the NHL level. If you're not going to put him in a position to use his only tool, and publicly slag him because he's not the player he should never have been expected to be, that's on management.

If you're drafting a one-shot scorer with deficiencies elsewhere, and you're mad that what's you get, then the draft strategy and asset management were all wrong and Fitz should own it.

 

[Triumph]

I mean, he kinda did. He was drafted almost entirely because of goal-scoring and having a high-end shot, not for any other qualities. That's the player they should have known they were getting.

He showed he can do that at the AHL level, and fairly efficiently (in low TOI) at the NHL level. If you're not going to put him in a position to use his only tool, and publicly slag him because he's not the player he should never have been expected to be, that's on management.

If you're drafting a one-shot scorer with deficiencies elsewhere, and you're mad that what's you get, then the draft strategy and asset management were all wrong and Fitz should own it.

I guess we just have different definitions of what's expected of a player. No, Holtz wasn't going to turn into Patrice Bergeron, but he had very glaring issues outside of one-timing pucks that occasionally went in. Publicly slagging him was dumb, but to me you don't expect that a high drafted forward will still be processing the game as badly as Holtz was in his D+4.

 

[Nubmer6]

I guess we just have different definitions of what's expected of a player. No, Holtz wasn't going to turn into Patrice Bergeron, but he had very glaring issues outside of one-timing pucks that occasionally went in. Publicly slagging him was dumb, but to me you don't expect that a high drafted forward will still be processing the game as badly as Holtz was in his D+4.

He didn't even have a great one-timer. His slap shot was actually a weakness he admitted he needed to work on when we drafted him. His scoring was from positioning, finding open areas, and shot placement. That's why I was a bit disappointed when we drafted him.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

“Holtz: the draft pick” wasn’t the problem. “Holtz: the example of the Devils’ development after his AHL breakout” is the problem. Letting him ride the bench for almost a whole season, then running him in the top-6 for the entire following preseason only to demote him as soon as the season starts, and then publicly calling him a disappointment when the season was over? That’s where his value went. And it was pretty easily avoidable.

I still believe in Holtz the player quite a bit. He made massive strides in his skating when he saw it was necessary, and i think he’s gonna make the same strides with his defensive play. But i dunno that Vegas is gonna be the team that has the patience to let him work through his stuff. Or maybe a non-Ruff, non-Green coach has a better idea of how to handle guys like him? We’ll see.

 

[My3Sons]

“Holtz: the draft pick” wasn’t the problem. “Holtz: the example of the Devils’ development after his AHL breakout” is the problem. Letting him ride the bench for almost a whole season, then running him in the top-6 for the entire following preseason only to demote him as soon as the season starts, and then publicly calling him a disappointment when the season was over? That’s where his value went. And it was pretty easily avoidable.

I still believe in Holtz the player quite a bit. He made massive strides in his skating when he saw it was necessary, and i think he’s gonna make the same strides with his defensive play. But i dunno that Vegas is gonna be the team that has the patience to let him work through his stuff. Or maybe a non-Ruff, non-Green coach has a better idea of how to handle guys like him? We’ll see.

He would be best served on a rebuilding team where they'd be primarily focused on development and he can improve over another two seasons or so and improve as the team improves. Style of play would matter as well. He won't fit on a Colorado most likely for example. Maybe Utah would be a good landing spot? I'd say San Jose but that's too cliche at this point.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

i mean teams have been able to get production out offensively-talented but other otherwise disappointing forwards before. IIRC Burakovsky had a similar early development to Holtz and he fit in very well with Colorado. So much of it comes down to coaching and usage and a player’s mindset. Maybe Holtz’s real issue is between his ears? We’ll probably know for sure by the end of next season.

 

[Oneiro]

It wouldn't surprise me if off ice stuff was relevant to both Holtz and Marino.

Dillon and Pesce are at different life stages than Marino and certainly Holtz. They've been on serious teams with expectations for a long time. Fitz has more information than us in this regard - we can never be in the room and see all the smiling faces on the bus after a loss. Who knows about all that stuff...Holtz's weight fluctuations alone might tell you something (not to be a dick, but you know what I'm saying).

I also just flat-out don't think GMs are unaware of a kid putting up 28 pts in 11 minutes of ice time. They're taking a look and they must not like everything else they see. Everyone needs goal-scoring and will take it as cheap as they can get it. For so many teams to pass...This could easily be the reverse Gusev trade.

 

[britdevil]

It's an interesting theory.

I mean when your veteran voice in the room is Brendan Smith, you have issues. Dougie strikes me as the strong silent type, not the sort of guy who would call out the young guys bullshit. Too chill.

I do feel like the unspeakable about this roster is that it was damn young. Maybe Fitz felt they needed some older heads to keep them in check? Get them on the straight and narrow so to speak.

 

[NJDevs26]

It's an interesting theory.

I mean when your veteran voice in the room is Brendan Smith, you have issues.

I do feel like the unspeakable about this roster is that it was damn young. Maybe Fitz felt they needed some older heads to keep them in check?

Well Palat and Haula were supposed to be those guys to even more of an extent, they clearly….weren’t enough. Dougie too but he disappeared on IR

 

[britdevil]

Well Palat and Haula were supposed to be those guys to even more of an extent, they clearly….weren’t enough. Dougie too but he disappeared on IR

Yeah I added a bit about Dougie.

They probably tried their best... I don't know. None of us really know.

 

[Oneiro]

2010 Blackhawks were the youngest team in the cap era to win (avg. age of 26.2). And even they had to add Hossa, Sharp, Madden, Sopel and Campbell. Also it was years after drafting Keith, Byfuglien, Seabrook and Brouwer.

Prime Patrick Sharp is exactly what this team needs. Too bad Holtz couldn't be that guy.

 

[Triumph]

i mean teams have been able to get production out offensively-talented but other otherwise disappointing forwards before. IIRC Burakovsky had a similar early development to Holtz and he fit in very well with Colorado. So much of it comes down to coaching and usage and a player’s mindset. Maybe Holtz’s real issue is between his ears? We’ll probably know for sure by the end of next season.

Burakovsky had a long track record of being an NHLer. He made the Caps in his D+2 and while they never trusted him with big minutes, he played there for 5 seasons and was a good-to-great soft minute scorer every year after except for the one he was traded. I don't really think they're that similar, maybe if Holtz scores at a similar rate next year, but boy do I think that's unlikely.

 

[bossram]

I guess we just have different definitions of what's expected of a player. No, Holtz wasn't going to turn into Patrice Bergeron, but he had very glaring issues outside of one-timing pucks that occasionally went in. Publicly slagging him was dumb, but to me you don't expect that a high drafted forward will still be processing the game as badly as Holtz was in his D+4.

He did make some improvements. His skating was a big weakness, and he's brought it up. I agree his defensive play is lacking, but I noticed him making more "effort" in that area this season, if not better effectiveness.

My fundamental critique is that Holtz is a certain type of player, and that's largely what he's been in NA pro hockey to thus far in his career. If you don't want this player type, why draft him at all? Or why not help his development? Why do everything you can to slag his value if you don't want him?

“Holtz: the draft pick” wasn’t the problem. “Holtz: the example of the Devils’ development after his AHL breakout” is the problem. Letting him ride the bench for almost a whole season, then running him in the top-6 for the entire following preseason only to demote him as soon as the season starts, and then publicly calling him a disappointment when the season was over? That’s where his value went. And it was pretty easily avoidable.

I still believe in Holtz the player quite a bit. He made massive strides in his skating when he saw it was necessary, and i think he’s gonna make the same strides with his defensive play. But i dunno that Vegas is gonna be the team that has the patience to let him work through his stuff. Or maybe a non-Ruff, non-Green coach has a better idea of how to handle guys like him? We’ll see.

It was a poor draft pick. That's part of the problem. I did not want Holtz at that spot.

But as for the rest, it is an all-of-the-above issue. Fundamental mismanagement.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

Burakovsky had a long track record of being an NHLer. He made the Caps in his D+2 and while they never trusted him with big minutes, he played there for 5 seasons and was a good-to-great soft minute scorer every year after except for the one he was traded. I don't really think they're that similar, maybe if Holtz scores at a similar rate next year, but boy do I think that's unlikely.

I dont really disagree with this, but I think the context around each player is important. Holtz missed crucial development time with injuries, the Caps had a much more cemented and mature core to insulate Burakovsky, they had Barry Trotz… hell even covid probably messed up a bunch of development curves for prospects around Holtz’s age.

Ideally you have a youngster with the talent to overcome that stuff, but not everybody does. And when you don’t, you have to do what you can to maximize what IS there. That’s where i think the Devils completely faceplanted.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

It was a poor draft pick.

I think Holtz was a victim of Fitz trying to solve his “goal scoring winger” problem through the draft, which is entirely on Fitz. But Holtz still went exactly where he was slotted. You can only call it a bad draft pick if you think the entirety of the scouting industry is flawed (which i guess i wouldn’t necessarily disagree with).

We’re not talking about Dylan McIlrath or Chase Stillman here.

 

[dgibb10]

After taking an evaluation of UFA and trades, I don't think Holtz had no value.

I think there is a large premium placed on physical forwards especially lately

Jeannot 1 year 800k+RFA control got that ridiculous haul from tampa.
And even now this year for just 1 year at 2.6 mill he gets a 2nd+
RFA rights to a similar player in beck Malenstyn just got a high 2nd
Yakov Trenin just got 3.5 million

2 years at 775k+RFA control is very cheap, very good control.

I think if we tried to buy cotter on his own, it would have cost us a 1st

This is not to say that I agree with the trade. Or that I value physicality that highly. But this offseason has shown it costs a pretty penny to get these types of assets.

Edit:
Keifer Scheffield 1.5 mill AAV
Hathaway 2.4 mill AAV
Joshua 3.25 mill AAV
Duhaime 1.9 mill AAV

We'll see what Kolesar and Malenstyn get as RFAs

 

[Nico Hischier]

What Paul Cotter needs to improve

 

[bossram]

I think Holtz was a victim of Fitz trying to solve his “goal scoring winger” problem through the draft, which is entirely on Fitz. But Holtz still went exactly where he was slotted. You can only call it a bad draft pick if you think the entirety of the scouting industry is flawed (which i guess i wouldn’t necessarily disagree with).

We’re not talking about Dylan McIlrath or Chase Stillman here.

I didn't like the pick at the time. Scouts are paid to scout. If they're bad at their jobs, get new ones.

If you're just going to go with the "industry consensus" at every selection, why have scouts at all?

 

[Billdo]

Holtz isn't who I wanted (Rossi was my pick iirc) but the fact that out of three first rounders picked in 2020 we only have one left. That kind of stinks although Mukhamadullin was used to get Meier. Holtz was selected where he was projected so it wasn't a reach or a "bad pick", it just didn't work.

 

[Nubmer6]

I didn't like the pick at the time. Scouts are paid to scout. If they're bad at their jobs, get new ones.

If you're just going to go with the "industry consensus" at ever selection, why have scouts at all?

I actually think we fired that scout the next year. Can't remember who it was, but I vaguely recall him being replaced.