Larry Brooks: Sather must decide: Is dealing Girardi best for Rangers?

[Bluenote13]

I would trade him.

Sather, I'm not so sure. Remember, this is one of the only players the cigar could actually hang his hat on. Plucked him from obscurity.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

After watching this team for a half a season, it's pretty obvious we're not a contender. HOWEVER, we are a much better team than the standing show. We have a ton of guys that are either injuried, not playing up to their capabilities, or both. That has been our biggest problem. If this team as currently constructed was firing on all cylinders, we're easily a 4-6 seed in the East.

Lunqvist has been average. Nash has been average. Stepan has been average. Richards is better than last year but still below the standard of a $7.5M player. Callahan and Staal have been banged up. These are our main issues. Guys like Pouliot, Hagelin, Kreider, Moore etc. have picked up their game tremendously recently. Zuccarello has been our best forward. If our big guns could get going, this team would be in decent shape.

That being said.. there's definitely moves that need to be made. I'd honestly like to see Girardi moved at the deadline. He has some tremendous value and we have defensemen in the pipeline that will make losing him a bit more bearable. I have a really hard time seeing them trading Callahan; Sather doesn't have the nads to do it and I'd rather keep him to be honest. He's a gritty heart and soul player that has a tremendous impact on a game when he's 100%.

My formula would be to trade Girardi and MDZ at the deadline for the best possible returns and see where we're at. I'm also extremely open to buying out Richards, trading Stepan and signing one of the UFA centers this summer. The return from MDZ, Girardi and Stepan could be immense and exactly the re-tool this team needs without completely gutting everything as I think we have a good foundation

Yup, heard this all before.

What people fail to realize when pinning unrealistic expectations on players is how their performance will be effected by being a part of an organization that has no long term plan regarding how they want to play the game. Since this managerial view changes on a dime, you've got players that are more or less valuable from season to season.

In Girardi and Callahan's case, their strengths are in almost complete contrast to the latest flavor of the month when it comes to style of play.

What Im basically saying is keeping this team together in the futile hope that things will magically come together is a very poor option.

 

[JimmyG89]

The prospect pool is barren. And what you see on the ice may not even be good enough for 8th place for playoffs.

We may not have an elite prospect up and coming, we have pieces that should be NHL players. The question is how can we get a cheap, young forward that we can have control over and make him the centerpiece of the team. Those are not readily available. Might have to take some risk on a trade to get a player with that upside. People talked about Yakupov for a while. Kreider was that guy for us, Miller to a lesser extent.

You need to find a player not happy where he is and move a piece or two to make a deal. Look for a Kyle Turris type situation. Blake Wheeler is another example. Bad thing is nobody is like that right now as far as we know except Yakupov and that has cooled significantly.

The last deal like that Sather made was for Zherdev. Blew up in his face. Lost a very valuable piece in Tyutin. Could see why he is reluctant to make a deal like that. Same with Lisin. Korpikoski was valuable. Would be playing on a 3rd line here. Lisin is an afterthought now.

It's tough to say retool/rebuild when the pieces are not easy to come by without getting a top 10 pick or a couple top 10 pick or getting a very good trade to go your way. Need to infuse youth in the spots veterans are taking up. It is the only way to move forward and have growth. Vets are not going to improve drastically.

 

[gravy121]

And Willie Nelson before that..

And Brenda Lee before that ... but I am with Ola, Pet Shop Boys first, then Elvis, then Willie.

Oh sorry, off topic -- meant keep Girardi, see what we can get for Cally (and that kills me to say, having named a child {in part} after him)! Love his play, but the truth is it looks like it will be best for them to move on.

Of course, everything we discuss hinges on the two great unknowns here -- what will they re-sign for; and what can we get for trades.
I understand the "doomsday" scenario of not trading them, and not re-signing them either; but the counter to that is there is value in them being Rangers for the remainder of the season. Their roles in stabilizing the team, keeping guys in the 'right' roles and helping younger guys develop must be weight versus the potential trade value (i.e. a mid-tier prospect and a 1st rounder at the end of the round...each having say a 15% chance of making the roster...is not worth the trade, even if both C and G walk).

One last point, just philosophically, about 'tanking'... i abhor the idea, and feel strongly a team should work to win at all times. Some folks dream scenario of tanking out to get a top 5 pick, first guarantees nothing, but also does have an impact on the team. Tough for me to place into words, but see EDM and NYI, i feel that there years of bottoming out have a significant impact on their players throughout the system. There is great value in "learning to win" --- even a small run in the play-offs, and guys learning how to win raises all ships. I know most of us are sick of finishing in the middle of the pack, but i would rather the young guys continue to be in competitive situations.
To put it in other words, i believe the value of even a first round exit in the playoffs this year, would have more value (in raising roster players experience/expectations/etc.) then the value of say picking at #18 versus at #10 in the draft. That goes not just for this year, but even for what has occurred in the recent past.
Last attempt to present my point --- consider what value there is in the higher draft pick that comes from missing the playoffs; and counter that with the perceived value opposing GMs would have in our players having playoff experience, multiplied over our 'tradeable' roster. I think the rising ship of continuing to try and be competitive is more valuable then a nominal increase in draft position.

Again, there are many sides to this ... i feel like we could easliy come to a consensus if we know those two unknowns of what G and C want for contracts, and what we could get for them.



Tell me that your sweet love hasnt died

 

[Raspewtin]

We have Lundqvist signed for 8 years. You don't tear down the roster until he's on his way out. Trading guys like Girardi and Callahan for picks and prospects who may not contribute for five years is absolutely not the way to go. Obviously, it's a different scenario if we can't re-sign these guys or their price range is WAY out of our league (which I don't think will be the case, considering how much any decent replacement on the open market would cost us).

We're pot committed. Build on top of the pieces we already have.

I didn't say tear it town. I said retool. Chop off the dead weight. Because you're right, we already have a good number of the core pieces + compliments needed. Who said Girardi + Callahan will only get picks? Not the way to go. If I had it my way we'd get Rundblad from Phoenix, who's ready for the NHL imo.

 

[Trxjw]

We may not have an elite prospect up and coming, we have pieces that should be NHL players. The question is how can we get a cheap, young forward that we can have control over and make him the centerpiece of the team. Those are not readily available. Might have to take some risk on a trade to get a player with that upside. People talked about Yakupov for a while. Kreider was that guy for us, Miller to a lesser extent.

You need to find a player not happy where he is and move a piece or two to make a deal. Look for a Kyle Turris type situation. Blake Wheeler is another example. Bad thing is nobody is like that right now as far as we know except Yakupov and that has cooled significantly.

The last deal like that Sather made was for Zherdev. Blew up in his face. Lost a very valuable piece in Tyutin. Could see why he is reluctant to make a deal like that. Same with Lisin. Korpikoski was valuable. Would be playing on a 3rd line here. Lisin is an afterthought now.

It's tough to say retool/rebuild when the pieces are not easy to come by without getting a top 10 pick or a couple top 10 pick or getting a very good trade to go your way. Need to infuse youth in the spots veterans are taking up. It is the only way to move forward and have growth. Vets are not going to improve drastically.

To the bolded, the team really needs to find a player who is even greener than those guys. Find a prospect who is ready to break out. Find someone who a team has given up on, or see's as the 2nd or 3rd best player at that position in the prospect pool. Brett Connolly jumps out at me immediately in that regard.

They could also go a long way by putting far more effort into the NCAA free agency class this year. They were in on Sustr, Schultz, DeKeyser, etc, but if they position this team for a quick rebuild, they'll be a lot more appealing to these kids. All three of those kids have been able to quickly step into important roles with their respective clubs very quickly.

The main strength of this organization for several years has been amateur scouting. Focus on that and use it to our advantage. Can we win the Greg Carey sweepstakes? If he's the real deal, he could be a young, cost-controlled scoring forward as early as next fall.

 

[Larry Melnyk]

Unlike many here, I wish I wasn't so on-the fence (not usual for me) about possible Ranger deadline trades..

The Rangers are pure mediocrity. Nothing more, nothing less. Have been for a long time. However, as mediocre as they are, the sad state of the East and especially the Metro, to me, makes them a PO team with only two East teams that they don't have a good shot at beating in the POs.

It's because of this, and efforts like those against TOR and a few more that will happen, as well as Sather's belief in the team he put together, and the excuses (poor scheduling start, injuries, new coach, etc.) that I can still see SATHER being a BUYER (small) at the deadline instead of the recent buzz of selling and trading the likes of GIRARDI, CALLY, BOITANO, DEL ZERO, etc...Honestly, I will be very surprised if he deals any of the first three...

Most of us understand that this team and especially the organization, has too many flaws/limitations and needs a kind of rebuild/re-model (the degree of which is the arguable part)......I KNOW a deal of CALLY/GIRARDI for the right price is the logical move(s) for a COMPETENT GM BUT, and here's the biggie, do you really want SATHER and his incompetent staff in charge of such a bottoming, trading for prospects (see the 2004 Fire Sale)and rebuild? With current management, it's much more likely that such trades and a planned quick trip to the bottom will end up being a long time residence in Islander hell and something far worse than what we have been experiencing recently....

The thought of that scares me soo much that I'll take the mediocrity we are in now, where Sather keeps and resigns Cally and, especially, GIRARDI and hope that somehow Sather steps into a lucky pile of dog sh*% that allows him to somehow complete another Gomez-MCD deal....and a team that can at least fight in the POs (East)...Fully knowing this will never result in a Cup winner...

That's what Sather has devolved this team and organization into. Lesser of evils. For me, at least. The fantasy of a Different management would be a different story...

 

[JimmyG89]

To the bolded, the team really needs to find a player who is even greener than those guys. Find a prospect who is ready to break out. Find someone who a team has given up on, or see's as the 2nd or 3rd best player at that position in the prospect pool. Brett Connolly jumps out at me immediately in that regard.

They could also go a long way by putting far more effort into the NCAA free agency class this year. They were in on Sustr, Schultz, DeKeyser, etc, but if they position this team for a quick rebuild, they'll be a lot more appealing to these kids. All three of those kids have been able to quickly step into important roles with their respective clubs very quickly.

The main strength of this organization for several years has been amateur scouting. Focus on that and use it to our advantage. Can we win the Greg Carey sweepstakes? If he's the real deal, he could be a young, cost-controlled scoring forward as early as next fall.

It's tough to get the breakout players. We lucked into Mcdonagh being one of those. I like Connelly. What would Tampa want in return? Can we get him for one of our rentals? Unless it is Callahan Or Girardi I think not. MDZ possibly, if they are interested. They have to take a risk at getting a guy like that. Not every player they get needs to be a guy who will make it in the lower lines. Reach a little. We can get rewarded. I believe some of the players drafted recently by us are subject to trying to fit Torts. Last draft was more skill and boom or bust players. Need to fet impact forwards. We have enough middle guys. We need top end. If that is our own drafting, meaning top 10 picks, or trade, we have to do it. Cannot make it in this league without presence of a home grown top line player(s).

 

[Pizza]

I'm not horny to trade him....

Yes, he is a Ranger, but if they traded him he wouldn't be and the new guy they got would be, so should be no worry there!

Girardi's going to get paid this summer, and I'd rather not be the team that gives it to him.

Honest question for you:

What's worse/more difficult to deal with - Paying for a really good defenseman or trying to find one?

Trades are always so damn sexy round these parts, but how do we replace a guy who's been as good for as long as Giradi has been?

....and I grant you that this year he has been sub par.

But, I asked some of these same questions about the Nash deal....and mostly what I get back is er, ummm, because.....TRADES!!

So someone please answer the question. How do we replace a really good Defensive Dman?

 

[Larry Melnyk]

Honest question for you:

What's worse/more difficult to deal with - Paying for a really good defenseman or trying to find one?

Trades are always so damn sexy round these parts, but how do we replace a guy who's been as good for as long as Giradi has been?

....and I grant you that this year he has been sub par.

But, I asked some of these same questions about the Nash deal....and mostly what I get back is er, ummm, because.....TRADES!!

So someone please answer the question. How do we replace a really good Defensive Dman?

Solid, dependable, durable 1st-2nd pair defensive D-men with 5 years left do not grow on trees.... you lose one that plays over 25 mins you leave a gaping hole you may never fill for a long time...And I truly don't see anybody in the Ranger org filling that hole nor trust Sather to aquire the prospect that will...He's the type of player teams (and I) like to keep.......CALLY and his injuries are another story..JMO....

 

[GAGLine]

Honest question for you:

What's worse/more difficult to deal with - Paying for a really good defenseman or trying to find one?

The problem is, how much money and how many years do we have to give him to re-sign him? And for how many of those years will he be a good defenseman?

Is it better to re-sign him and then trade him after his value goes down? We did that with Rozy and got Wolski.

How far away are we from winning the cup? Will a re-signed Girardi be a part of that? At some point, spending more money for the same players becomes counterproductive.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

How far away are we from winning the cup? Will a re-signed Girardi be a part of that? At some point, spending more money for the same players becomes counterproductive.

Great questions. I'll add another: at this point are you paying Girardi for what he's done or what he will do?

 

[Thirty One]

Trades are always so damn sexy round these parts, but how do we replace a guy who's been as good for as long as Giradi has been?

We'll likely have to answer that question whether or not he is re-signed. Girardi will be 30 at the start of next season and physical defensemen tend to depreciate rapidly in their 30s.

I would glad pay top dollar for Girardi's past years, but I'm not so eager to pay it for his future years.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

The prospect pool is barren. And what you see on the ice may not even be good enough for 8th place for playoffs.

Can confirm that the prospect pool is in fact NOT barren. Things are bleak, but can we not over compensate for that fact by making things up?

 

[GAGLine]

Solid, dependable, durable 1st-2nd pair defensive D-men with 5 years left do not grow on trees.... you lose one that plays over 25 mins you leave a gaping hole you may never fill for a long time...And I truly don't see anybody in the Ranger org filling that hole nor trust Sather to aquire the prospect that will...He's the type of player teams (and I) like to keep.......CALLY and his injuries are another story..JMO....

How did we get McDonagh? It's not like we had a lot of center depth when we traded Gomez. I don't see a replacement in the organization for Girardi either, which is why would should be targeting at least 1 dman whom we think can take Girardi's place in the future.

 

[Pizza]

I'm just gonna refer you guys to Larry's post above.

Great take Melnyk. Because I think in light of other deals the org has done, you have to VERY careful.

Despite the many problems this year, do we create a bigger gap between us and the cup by depleting a Dcore that has seen serious depletion already from the loss of Sauer, the injury to Staal, the regression of DZ, and the lack of development from Moore?

Again, this board LOVES deals. I get it.

How has THAT worked for us? I think you have to be honest and say mediocre at best.

For that reason I stress caution. Can't stress it enough.

 

[GAGLine]

Pizza, are you even reading our posts? There are legitimate concerns with giving Girardi a long term, big money deal. There are players on other teams that we can target in trade to replace Girardi. You act like we would trade him and get nothing back for him.

 

[Thirty One]

Pizza, are you even reading our posts? There are legitimate concerns with giving Girardi a long term, big money deal. There are players on other teams that we can target in trade to replace Girardi. You act like we would trade him and get nothing back for him.

You are clearly just thirsty for trades.

 

[Pizza]

We'll likely have to answer that question whether or not he is re-signed. Girardi will be 30 at the start of next season and physical defensemen tend to depreciate rapidly in their 30s.

I would glad pay top dollar for Girardi's past years, but I'm not so eager to pay it for his future years.

Good God I feel OLD reading that. 30 ain't so damn bad son;-)

I'm not gonna crunch stats here, but I'd bet the case can be made for plenty of Dmen playing very effectively well into their 30's.

Girardi has never impressed me as a very physical Dman. He's more subtle and smart than smack.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Can confirm that the prospect pool is in fact NOT barren. Things are bleak, but can we not over compensate for that fact by making things up?

Yeah but if we make it feel and seem worse when something goes right we're kinda happy

 

[Pizza]

Pizza, are you even reading our posts? There are legitimate concerns with giving Girardi a long term, big money deal. There are players on other teams that we can target in trade to replace Girardi. You act like we would trade him and get nothing back for him.

Yeah, I can read Gag.

I'm not saying that there are not legit concerns.

In all sincerity, please tell me the other players we would get to replace him?

 

[Thirty One]

Good God I feel OLD reading that. 30 ain't so damn bad son;-)

I'm not gonna crunch stats here, but I'd bet the case can be made for plenty of Dmen playing very effectively well into their 30's.

Girardi has never impressed me as a very physical Dman. He's more subtle and smart than smack.

Nevertheless his body has taken a beating:

There are of course many d-men that have lasted into their 30s. That's not at all what I said.

 

[Pizza]

How did we get McDonagh? It's not like we had a lot of center depth when we traded Gomez. I don't see a replacement in the organization for Girardi either, which is why would should be targeting at least 1 dman whom we think can take Girardi's place in the future.

With all respect I'm just going to say we get VERY lucky there.

No argument. GREAT deal. But I hope your not saying something like that, especially for this franchise happens often.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

In all sincerity, please tell me the other players we would get to replace him?

Is that really something you need to address now?

 

[iamitter]

Yeah, I can read Gag.

I'm not saying that there are not legit concerns.

In all sincerity, please tell me the other players we would get to replace him?

Vatanen+a good forward prospect

Vatanen has top 4 potential, possibly top 2 if everything goes right for him.


We should look at getting a RH puckmover. The problem is all of them are basically tiny. Rundblad, Vatanen, Murphy.