Sanderson vs Seider vs Power vs Dobson

[Aladyyn]

If Seider had been drowning the Wings would have been a 75-80 point team. The fact he only limits, not dominates, the likes of McDavid, Mackinnon, Kucherov, Pastrnak, Robertson, Panarin etc. on a nightly basis doesn’t mean he’s been bad.

I'm gonna go through all of these later, but how is 6 goals against in 25 5on5 minutes "limiting" McDavid, exactly?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Sanderson but it’s close between him and Seider. I just like Sanderson’s puck moving better. Seider had a rough year last year but he’s also seeing some extreme usage. I think he had like the hardest QoC in the league last year and it wasn’t even close

The chart came out early in the season, but Detroit basically used him in the same way all year... His deployment was among the toughest in the cap era.

But you can't explain that to dorks who don't watch hockey and just read the BS that Dom Luszczynzynysnzycnsyzncysnzysn's computer spits out. That idiot's computer was telling him Jeff Petry was more valuable to Detroit than Seider last season.

 

[Sting]

Dobson’s not good defensively while Seider’s strength is his defense. This makes no sense.

If Seiders strength is his defense then I wonder what the hell happened last year lol

 

[Hisch13r]

The chart came out early in the season, but Detroit basically used him in the same way all year... His deployment was among the toughest in the cap era.

But you can't explain that to dorks who don't watch hockey and just read the BS that Dom Luszczynzynysnzycnsyzncysnzysn's computer spits out. That idiot's computer was telling him Jeff Petry was more valuable to Detroit than Seider last season.

This is so f***ing stupid. Dom literally wrote an article explaining the context of Seider's usage and explained how it dragged down the numbers

If Seiders strength is his defense then I wonder what the hell happened last year lol

It's so funny you say this when Dobson is consistently mediocre at best defensively while Seider had 2 years of being great defensively and it took him facing the hardest workload anyway has faced in like a decade for him not to be able to handle it.

 

[Sting]

This is so f***ing stupid. Dom literally wrote an article explaining the context of Seider's usage and explained how it dragged down the numbers



It's so funny you say this when Dobson is consistently mediocre at best defensively while Seider had 2 years of being great defensively and it took him facing the hardest workload anyway has faced in like a decade for him not to be able to handle it.

I hadn't heard that about Seider. Maybe you make a good point. Can you back that up with stats? All I see are declining advanced metrics year over year.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

This is so f***ing stupid. Dom literally wrote an article explaining the context of Seider's usage and explained how it dragged down the numbers



It's so funny you say this when Dobson is consistently mediocre at best defensively while Seider had 2 years of being great defensively and it took him facing the hardest workload anyway has faced in like a decade for him not to be able to handle it.

Yeah, but in the same article he was claiming that in spite of Seider's numbers being f***ed by his own model (That should say something about the model) he was still overrated lol.

I hadn't heard that about Seider. Maybe you make a good point. Can you back that up with stats? All I see are declining advanced metrics year over year.

I can't use Twatter at work, but Prashanth Iyer had posted a chart early in the season with Seider/Walman's deployment compared to deployments of other pairings since 05-06 and it was some absurd outlier.

It wasn't the worst, but there were maybe 3-4 pairings with worse matchups in that time.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

It really depends on what kind of player you need.

If I'm drafting a franchise D, I'm going with Sanderson first. I think his offensive numbers will jump this year with Chychrun and Brannstrom moved out for more defensive presences. That and almost all OTT fwds underachieved last year statistically.

While points and production are very important, the main skills for me would be skating and shutdown ability. IMO Sanderson is better than all 4 guys when it comes to these qualities, and that could be the difference when you're in a cup final playing against McDavid/Bedard/Mackinnon for 7 games.

We always see scoring drop in the playoffs and games get tighter. Give me the guy you can glue on the other teams' best player.

The other guys have more blatant deficiencies, so as of right now I'd go:

1. Sanderson
2. Dobson
3. Seider
4. Power

Seider could pass Dobson and has the potential to surpass Sanderson with the right coaching/D partner. Interested to see how BUF deploys PP2 time between Power and Byram, but either way it will eat into Powers opportunities like Sanderson had with Chychrun/Chabot.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Poor Seider is gonna be f***ed for another year if they really plan to just sit with Petry/Holl as 2RD/3RD.

He literally got relied on all season for every single big defensive situation because you can't trust any of the other RHD. Petry is not an NHL caliber player anymore.

 

[Aladyyn]

The way Power gets talked about here you'd never guess that his closest comparable in terms of 5on5 icetime and goal differential was Miro Heiskanen

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Seider is really hard to get a gauge of how good he actually is.

His on ice metrics are not good, but his job every night the last year or two has basically been being thrown out on the ice to jump on live grenades every shift, and some think that models don't do a good enough job accounting for that. No other defenseman gets worse deployment in the league.

I think I'm picking Sanderson based on the fact that he really looks like he can do it all, already. Seider close behind, Power and Dobson below him.

I'm getting to that point where I feel they're either gonna ride Mo so hard that they break him, or when the surrounding defense finally is solid and he's not relied on so heavily, he's just gonna explode and the idiots who thought he was bad are gonna wonder where the f*** that came from.

It's always been there. He's just stuck with shit assignments.

I feel like his AHL/SHL/Rookie years he was "Free" and could play both ways, and in the last two years he's had to revert back to his DEL year where he was all defense mode.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm gonna go through all of these later, but how is 6 goals against in 25 5on5 minutes "limiting" McDavid, exactly?

I mean, it’s McDavid. They had a brutal 8-4 loss against them. Surely you understand that Seider can’t be expected to shut down every star player, win every matchup, always?
The point is those are the matchups he’s taking night in and night out and if he wasn’t limiting what those star players could do Detroit wouldn’t have been close to the playoffs.

 

[Hanji]

1a. Sanderson
1b. Seider

3. Dobson
4. Power

 

[Aladyyn]

I mean, it’s McDavid. They had a brutal 8-4 loss against them. Surely you understand that Seider can’t be expected to shut down every star player, win every matchup, always?
The point is those are the matchups he’s taking night in and night out and if he wasn’t limiting what those star players could do Detroit wouldn’t have been close to the playoffs.

That's why Detroit was a bottom 5 defensive team at 5on5?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

That's why Detroit was a bottom 5 defensive team at 5on5?

Because Seider was relied on for every major assignment and then some because his defensive backup was Petry and Ghost? Yes, that's why.

Please don't make me bring up your history of arguments against Detroit players. You already reported me pointing out one of them, rather than respond, because it was embarrassingly bad and indefensible.

 

[norrisnick]

I hadn't heard that about Seider. Maybe you make a good point. Can you back that up with stats? All I see are declining advanced metrics year over year.

This charts every defenseman with 1000+ minutes at ES. The vertical axis is QoC.

Because you can't really read them in the pile, I've marked JS, ND, and OP...

 

[Golden_Jet]

This charts every defenseman with 1000+ minutes at ES. The vertical axis is QoC.

Because you can't really read them in the pile, I've marked JS, ND, and OP...

View attachment 897106

Thanks for attaching initials, ya the chart is a mess. They should allow you more granualarity, to clean it up a bit.
What colour bubbles, do the other 3 players have.?

 

[biturbo19]

Poor Seider is gonna be f***ed for another year if they really plan to just sit with Petry/Holl as 2RD/3RD.

He literally got relied on all season for every single big defensive situation because you can't trust any of the other RHD. Petry is not an NHL caliber player anymore.

Petry has had such a weird career arc. I feel like his trajectory plotted is basically shaped like a Shark Fin.

 

[norrisnick]

Thanks for attaching initials, ya the chart is a mess. They should allow you more granualarity, to clean it up a bit.
What colour bubbles, do the other 3 players have.?

You can build a chart with any name you want. This takes out everyone but these four. It gets a bit weird because x y scales get realigned depending on the values needed to plot in the chart. So if multiple charts get built you need to make sure you aren't just looking at the dots because the values attached to the placements can vary greatly.

 

[Pavels Dog]

That's why Detroit was a bottom 5 defensive team at 5on5?

There are plenty of people calling their defense the worst in the league, and their goaltending is down there too. They were outside the bottom 5 in 5v5 goals against so yes, I’d say Seider was a major reason. Better support and better goaltending is needed for sure though.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Love the way Sanderson skates and think there's a good chance he ends up being the best defenseman out of this group. Personal preference however would be Seider. I think it'll be interesting to see how Detroit's plan with him works out long term. It's a little like throwing a 6 year old in the deep end. Ya gotta sink before you swim. Not sure he has the offense to be an all situations #1 but he's a nasty piece of business when he wants to be. Will be very curious to see what his first playoff series looks like. A real throwback big minute top pairing dman ala post peak Stevens, Chara, Foote, or Regehr.

Dobson and Power are fine too I guess, them and Bouchard just all give me Dougie Hamilton vibes. Dougie is a very talented hockey player but there's a reason he was on 4 different teams before he was 30. Well maybe more than one reason but the primary one being is that he's soft.

 

[bobholly39]

I voted Seider but I don't have a really strong opinion here. I feel like it could still go in a few different ways for best player/career

 

[Golden_Jet]

You can build a chart with any name you want. This takes out everyone but these four. It gets a bit weird because x y scales get realigned depending on the values needed to plot in the chart. So if multiple charts get built you need to make sure you aren't just looking at the dots because the values attached to the placements can vary greatly.

Thanks, so ranking them first to fourth in Each category is as follows:

So QOC order - Seider, Sanderson, Dobson, Power

Defensive zone start deployment-
Seider, Sanderson, Dobson, Power.

Corsi For relative% - Sanderson, Dobson, Power, Seider

 

[emptyNedder]

Voted Sanderson but all four have great (while different) qualities.

I have made this comment in other threads--this is a golden age of D.

Players who won't be 25 when the seasons starts:

Dahlin
Q Hughes
Dobson
Bouchard
Miller
Byran
Seider
York
Harley
Sanderson
Drysdale
Guhle
Faber
Power
L Hughes
Edvisson
Clarke
Moser
Nemec
Jiricek
Korchinski
Mintyukov
Mateychuk
Reinbacher
Simashev
Willander
Sandin Pelikan
Bonk
Levshunov
Yakemchuk
Parekh
Silayev
Dickinson
Buium


Obviously quite a few still too young to predict success. But added to the D who are 25-26
Makar
McAvoy
Fox
Heiskenen

The D quality seems to be better than ever.

 

[VaporTrail]

Sabres fan here...Give me Seider all day long

 

[Xspyrit]

Dobson is almost 25. Seider is 23. Sanderson just turned 22 and Power will be 22 soon

Personally, I think it's going to be Sanderson, Seider, Dobson and Power. Relatively close though, all these guys will be among the NHL elite for a decade

Didn't we hear this last year and then he was alright?

When do all these amazing players and contracts start helping the Sens win? I've heard they are all amazing and the Sens are a darkhorse to do some damage for multiple years now.

I'll never understand why people come up with these team arguments when talking about a player individually. Hockey is definitely a team game, you have 18 skaters and a goalie having various impacts on a game.

The thing with Ottawa is some people (not just Sens fans) crowned them too fast without looking at who was managing them. I declared after 7 games in the 2020-21 season that they would NOT go anywhere as long as Pierre Dorion was the GM and DJ Smith was the coach. Rest is history, and here we are now after Dorion dilapidated a huge part of this team's potential.

Regarding the reasons why Ottawa struggled : coaching, goaltending, health (Norris and Chabot have been injured a lot these last few years, Stutzle had a bad season for his ability as he played injured all year, etc) and bad support/depth/roster poorly constructed. Jake Sanderson was 21 y/o and it's clear when watching the games how good he is.

You want to use xGA by not g%? So not real goals but just expected ones? You are delusional.

g% is not just GF................

This is Ottawa's year, don't worry.

ok nevermind, I think there would be too much to explain...

The way Power gets talked about here you'd never guess that his closest comparable in terms of 5on5 icetime and goal differential was Miro Heiskanen

You think these 2 variables are the most important to evaluate the quality of a D-man?