Speculation: Sabres Roster Speculation - Pre-season 2023 Edition

[Zman5778]

Pegula is one of the worst owners in NHL history. It’s an objective fact.

It's only an "objective fact" if you ONLY consider win-loss record and nothing more.

When considering other factors.......he doesn't even make the list of "worst owners in NHL history". Not even as an honorable mention.

 

[Zman5778]

I’d take any owner on any team ever over him.

Harold Ballard? Bill Wirtz??

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Harold Ballard? Bill Wirtz??

Bad faith argument. He said owner, not former owner!

 

[Zman5778]

Bad faith argument. He said owner, not former owner!

He said "any team ever"....so yeah, that includes former owners.

 

[TehDoak]

So you want to send Peterka and Quinn back to the minors? Because that is what we are talking about here. Playing kids in top roles who are not good enough in those roles to contend. They are the reason the team is not ready.


This team was never going to contend with all the under 22 players in the top 6/top 4. If you watched the games, the kids got steamrolled a LOT. Power was a disaster is the D zone, and oppositions started throwing out physical checking lines against the kid line that were wrecking them. Saying that they could contend with some better supporting vets playing in bottom roles is ridiculous.

It's almost like we needed better veterans around them to support them and make them earn their ice time instead of giftwrapping it?

I've said the team was poorly constructed for several seasons. You can't win in this league rolling a bunch of scoring lines that don't play D. I have been super critical of Adams in many areas, but I have accepted the "development years" excuse because it is a legitimate rebuild strategy, so I am giving them a chance to actually take several seasons and implement it- and it seems to be paying off.

You seem to think attracting highly sought after UFAs to Buffalo is a thing. It isn't. The best free agents are going to go elsewhere. The only time this team has been able to sign top flight UFAs at the start of free agency is when they grossly overpay. It sucks, but it is something the GM has to contend with. We can't pretend the problem does not exist.

The issue is...Buffalo hasn't needed top tier free agents.

The last two seasons it's needed:

A) A goalie
B) A two way middle six center or just a straight up defensive center
C) A top 4 d-man to play with Power.

The only one that has 'sortof' been addressed is Clifton, who maybe is a top 4 d-man. We will have to see.

Wait. Did you not regularly accuse Terry Pegula of lying because the team was not spending the cap after that season and you kept referencing his statements from a press conference 10 years ago where he said "we will spend whatever it takes to make the sabres successful"?

Or was that some other poster with "Oak" in their moniker?

I never claimed he had to spend to the cap every season. He said there would be no budgetary restrictions on the Sabres and clearly that is not the case currently. He said so himself when he named Adams GM with his 3 E's. You want to be a NHL owner and run a team on a budget? That's fine, it's your money. You probably won't win much. You want to be a NHL owner and run the team on the budget AFTER promising you'd spend whatever it'd take to win a stanley cup? You can f*** right off.

Hey, I have never defended Terry Pegula of being a great owner. I made the same arguments last off-season and was told I was off base and given a bunch of Buffalo Bills references to prove why.

The hiring of John Roth was a huge red flag for me.

Could they have spent a bunch of money and produced a better on ice product the last two years? Absolutely. Should they have signed any of the available high end UFAs to over-priced, long term deals? Absolutely not.

I'm not seeing anyone pining for top tier UFAs. Buffalo needed to add smartly, leveraging their cap space and draft picks.

I honestly like where the team is with the cap flexibility.

But then, I do not feel like the 20-22 year old core had any hope of contending at the moment, so my reality was different than several posters here. I remember arguing against a couple of posters who were trying to convince me that giving Kadei 10+ million was the way to go....



You missed the point.

The point is not the direction of the two teams, it is the comparison of small market teams having owners that spend money for draft capital and throwing away real dollars to get future assets (you mentioned weaponizing cap i.e. taking on dumps for sweeteners). I was pointing out that even the richest owner in the league is not throwing real money away to just improve draft capital, much to the shock and dismay of a few delusional Sharks fans who regularly post nonsense on the main boards. Expecting Pegula to do similar during the rebuild was a narrative around here.

The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

 

[TehDoak]

Holy hyperbole. I'd easily take Pegula over the few owners before them. Pegulas are the best owners the franchise has had not named Knox.

This is the new revisionist history on this?

cool.

expect Adams himself has openly talked about not spending money for years because of future cap problems. And people here have parroted it as a reason that we can’t have a goalie or a top 4 D as if it ever made any sense. For literally two years now.

It’s been the crux of every argument people calling it out have had thrown back at them for, now, three off-seasons.

That mythical future that never arrives. The GM who continues to do nothing. The part of the fanbase that cheers it on.

All comes crashing down this year.


His team has never made the playoffs in a season he has owned the team from the start of it. An NHL record 12 years that he breaks every year now.

That’s before discussing his budget cuts to every aspect of the organization not just on ice where, despite his franchise tripling in value and the cap being artificially kept low to earn owners back Covid losses…he claims poverty and has spent at or among the lowest in the league for years.

I’d take any owner on any team ever over him. They’ve literally all had more success.

Bar can’t get any lower for you.

Ironically I think you both are correct.

The Pegula's rank 2nd on the Sabres owner ranking. Golisano was super cheap even when we had a contending team. The Rigas's ran Hasek out of town by refusing to spend for a contending team and then went to jail. And the NHL just a caretaker making sure the Sabres stayed alive.

And previously, the Pegula's were at least owners that were willing to spend. However, they've made terrible hiring decisions and been far too involved in the management of the team. But, in terms of ownership incompetence, they have to be right near the top of the current owners. I'd probably rank Arizona's current owner higher as he tried to play hardball with his arena lease and made homeless.

 

[PatLaFontaineASMR]

The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

I mean did we not try this with Matt Murray? Moving up 9 spots to take his salary?

Also taking a 5th round pick / 7th round pick for Butcher/Bishop?

 

[Djp]

If Pegula was the owner in 06-07 Briere likely doesnt walk and maybe even Drury.

If he was owner instead of galisano we would have possibly been a long powerhouse team in keeping brierre and Drury, letting vanek go for comp and kept money in non video scouting improving drafting.

 

[Djp]

It's almost like we needed better veterans around them to support them and make them earn their ice time instead of giftwrapping it?

it wasn’t gift wrapped. To get the vets you wanted…what would be the cost?

The issue is...Buffalo hasn't needed top tier free agents.

The last two seasons it's needed:

A) A goalie
B) A two way middle six center or just a straight up defensive center
C) A top 4 d-man to play with Power.

2 yrs fir Power when they really only had him for 1 year?

what goalie and overpay by how much?

what a middle 6 center blocking Cozens, Krebs snd Mitts?

The only one that has 'sortof' been addressed is Clifton, who maybe is a top 4 d-man. We will have to see.



I never claimed he had to spend to the cap every season. He said there would be no budgetary restrictions on the Sabres and clearly that is not the case currently. He said so himself when he named Adams GM with his 3 E's. You want to be a NHL owner and run a team on a budget? That's fine, it's your money. You probably won't win much. You want to be a NHL owner and run the team on the budget AFTER promising you'd spend whatever it'd take to win a stanley cup? You can f*** right off.

Covid happened. He wants to watch his bottom line. Thry went into rebuild mode which he at least understood.

I'm not seeing anyone pining for top tier UFAs. Buffalo needed to add smartly, leveraging their cap space and draft picks.




The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

Free agents are free to choose where they want to go. Thst means you have to seriously overpay to attract them.

owners are willing to eat UFA salary for picks…not do long retentions. actual money factors in here.

 

[Djp]

It's almost like we needed better veterans around them to support them and make them earn their ice time instead of giftwrapping it?









The issue is...Buffalo hasn't needed top tier free agents.

The last two seasons it's needed:

A) A goalie
B) A two way middle six center or just a straight up defensive center
C) A top 4 d-man to play with Power.

The only one that has 'sortof' been addressed is Clifton, who maybe is a top 4 d-man. We will have to see.



I never claimed he had to spend to the cap every season. He said there would be no budgetary restrictions on the Sabres and clearly that is not the case currently. He said so himself when he named Adams GM with his 3 E's. You want to be a NHL owner and run a team on a budget? That's fine, it's your money. You probably won't win much. You want to be a NHL owner and run the team on the budget AFTER promising you'd spend whatever it'd take to win a stanley cup? You can f*** right off.



I'm not seeing anyone pining for top tier UFAs. Buffalo needed to add smartly, leveraging their cap space and draft picks.




The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

buffalo just got a bunch of draft picks in trades.

retrntion on a deadline rental is very different than a player with term. Minnesota actual cost on ROR was around $75000 in real dollars.

to attract UFA Adams likely need to overpay by a lot.

 

[Irie]

It's almost like we needed better veterans around them to support them and make them earn their ice time instead of giftwrapping it?

For better or worse, that was the plan Granato and Adams laid out. They said they were going to gift the kids icetime and see what happened. They told you that they were rebuilding and these were development years. You can disagree with the philospophy. I know I do if the expectations are to win, but you can not say that they did somethng different than what they said they were going to do.

The issue is...Buffalo hasn't needed top tier free agents.

The last two seasons it's needed:

A) A goalie
B) A two way middle six center or just a straight up defensive center
C) A top 4 d-man to play with Power.

The only one that has 'sortof' been addressed is Clifton, who maybe is a top 4 d-man. We will have to see.

The major push on these boards have been to trade for UFAs that have or are going to demand top dollar contracts to fill that 4th D spot. The reality is that trading for those players is a huge gamble and they may walk as UFAs before this team hits the contender stage.

You say "Oh, they only needed a #4 defenseman, why didn't Adams acquire one?", but who was available? Who would re-sign in Buffalo? Adams has repeatedly stated that he is not interested in trading for anyone 30+ or that does not come with extension certainty. And in that regard, I agree with him.

Even if they did like you wanted, adding that player does not make this team a contender. They are still inexperienced and young. When all these kids start to hit their prime, that is when those types of moves will be mandatory to get the pieces to put the team over the hump. Trade for those pieces now, and you are just pissing away assets for players that will be gone or in serious decline when the team is ready to compete.

I'm not seeing anyone pining for top tier UFAs. Buffalo needed to add smartly, leveraging their cap space and draft picks.

You are pining for quality players. Quality players are in high demand and mostly not-available, and if available, are not signing/re-signing in Buffalo without a serious overpay.

The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

The Wild have 15 million in dead cap that is actually costing the owner 1.6 millionin cash. And what did the Wild actually get for their salary weaponization? A 4th and a 5th for passthrough retention? Guerin broke that market, so complaining that Adams did not do the same is silly, given the circumstances.

Marleau's cap hit was 6.25M, but his actual salary was 4.25 I believe, and the trade agreement for him to waive was that he would be bought out so he could return to San Jose, so it was never 6M+ in cash. Pretty sure more than a dozen people own the Hurricanes, and they basically bought a 1st round pick for 3M in that deal.


TLDR - You seem to want to just gripe about Adams and everything he has done, despite the promising position he has the team in.

Personally, I don't think he is a great GM, and I have disagreed with a lot of his personnel moves, but I am giving him credit for creating a positive environment where the players want to re-sign and build a winner. Would I personally do things different? for sure. I do not believe this team is making the most of it's position and opportunity going forward under Adams, but there is nothing I can do about it, so I am focusing on the positives that allow me to enjoy the team that I have followed and pulled for for over 30 years.

An average GM is much better than cycling through above average GMs every 3 years. Stability is way more important than you are willing to admit. This team is heading in the right direction, why don't you sit back and enjoy the ride instead of putting a negative spin on everything the organization does.

 

[DapperCam]

Maybe it’s a low bar, but I’m happy to have a hockey team, and we can thank the Pegulas for that.

Hockey heaven never really materialized, but it wasn’t from a lack of commitment to the team by them.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

Ironically I think you both are correct.

The Pegula's rank 2nd on the Sabres owner ranking. Golisano was super cheap even when we had a contending team. The Rigas's ran Hasek out of town by refusing to spend for a contending team and then went to jail. And the NHL just a caretaker making sure the Sabres stayed alive.

And previously, the Pegula's were at least owners that were willing to spend. However, they've made terrible hiring decisions and been far too involved in the management of the team. But, in terms of ownership incompetence, they have to be right near the top of the current owners. I'd probably rank Arizona's current owner higher as he tried to play hardball with his arena lease and made homeless.

I mean, he said worst in hockey history. There's no way that's correct.

 

[rtfirefly]

"If Pegula was the owner in 06-07 Briere likely doesnt walk and maybe even Drury."

No.
Drury and his agent had reached an understanding with the Rangers— Drury's "team of my dreams"—long before the season ended. It became known that Golisano said he could only afford to keep one of Drury or Briere. The Sabres decided to concentrate on signing Drury. But, knowing all along he was going to New York, Drury could have given them a wink and recommended going after Briere instead. But no. It wasn't enough for him to mislead the Sabres, he decided to screw them as he—premeditatedly—walked out the door.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

Golisano wouldn't let Regier sign them mid-season, Pegula hasn't shown that reluctance.

 

[Gras]

It's almost like we needed better veterans around them to support them and make them earn their ice time instead of giftwrapping it?









The issue is...Buffalo hasn't needed top tier free agents.

The last two seasons it's needed:

A) A goalie
B) A two way middle six center or just a straight up defensive center
C) A top 4 d-man to play with Power.

The only one that has 'sortof' been addressed is Clifton, who maybe is a top 4 d-man. We will have to see.



I never claimed he had to spend to the cap every season. He said there would be no budgetary restrictions on the Sabres and clearly that is not the case currently. He said so himself when he named Adams GM with his 3 E's. You want to be a NHL owner and run a team on a budget? That's fine, it's your money. You probably won't win much. You want to be a NHL owner and run the team on the budget AFTER promising you'd spend whatever it'd take to win a stanley cup? You can f*** right off.



I'm not seeing anyone pining for top tier UFAs. Buffalo needed to add smartly, leveraging their cap space and draft picks.




The Wild owner just did this multiple times last trade deadline to gain some picks.

Tom Dundon ate Marleau's entire salary for a year for a 1st round pick.

Owners certainly do utilize cash to get more draft capital.

The Pegulas do not.

The Wild tanked the market last season for eating cap at the deadline as a 3rd team which frustrated other GMs.

 

[Gras]

"If Pegula was the owner in 06-07 Briere likely doesnt walk and maybe even Drury."

No.
Drury and his agent had reached an understanding with the Rangers— Drury's "team of my dreams"—long before the season ended. It became known that Golisano said he could only afford to keep one of Drury or Briere. The Sabres decided to concentrate on signing Drury. But, knowing all along he was going to New York, Drury could have given them a wink and recommended going after Briere instead. But no. It wasn't enough for him to mislead the Sabres, he decided to screw them as he—premeditatedly—walked out the door.

You are forgetting that Darcy wasnt allowed to negotiate extensions in season with the pending free agents, with Pegula they could have been extended in season or the summer before.

 

[rtfirefly]

You are forgetting that Darcy wasnt allowed to negotiate extensions in season with the pending free agents, with Pegula they could have been extended in season or the summer before.

Doesn't matter. Drury would have not renegotiated a contract with the Sabres under any circumstances. He would have strung them along if necessary, but his mind was long made up that he was going to the "team of his dreams", and his agent and the Rangers had pre-arranged a deal to assure that it would happen. And so a $49 million deal was somehow magically all worked out and announced in about a split second after free agency started. No owner, whether one who cared about losing ten million dollars a year (Golisano) or one who didn't was going to keep Drury from going to New York. I lived in New York then. and the writers there are like dogs on a bone, interested in more than the (no-longer-free) pizza in the press room.

 

[Dingo44]

Doesn't matter. Drury would have not renegotiated a contract with the Sabres under any circumstances. He would have strung them along if necessary, but his mind was long made up that he was going to the "team of his dreams", and his agent and the Rangers had pre-arranged a deal to assure that it would happen. And so a $49 million deal was somehow magically all worked out and announced in about a split second after free agency started. No owner, whether one who cared about losing ten million dollars a year (Golisano) or one who didn't was going to keep Drury from going to New York. I lived in New York then. and the writers there are like dogs on a bone, interested in more than the (no-longer-free) pizza in the press room.

It's pretty common but sad knowledge that the Sabres and Drury had negotiated a four year deal before the season but then the Sabres at the time never bothered to send it to him. He wanted to extend before the year.

Drury agreed to deal last fall - Sabres Edge - The Buffalo News

buffalonews.typepad.com

 

[thewookie1]

Doesn't matter. Drury would have not renegotiated a contract with the Sabres under any circumstances. He would have strung them along if necessary, but his mind was long made up that he was going to the "team of his dreams", and his agent and the Rangers had pre-arranged a deal to assure that it would happen. And so a $49 million deal was somehow magically all worked out and announced in about a split second after free agency started. No owner, whether one who cared about losing ten million dollars a year (Golisano) or one who didn't was going to keep Drury from going to New York. I lived in New York then. and the writers there are like dogs on a bone, interested in more than the (no-longer-free) pizza in the press room.

We still keep Briere in this scenario. If Drury refuses to play ball mid season then Regier could have pivoted to Briere without much hoopla.

 

[rtfirefly]

It's pretty common but sad knowledge that the Sabres and Drury had negotiated a four year deal before the season but then the Sabres at the time never bothered to send it to him. He wanted to extend before the year.

Drury agreed to deal last fall - Sabres Edge - The Buffalo News

buffalonews.typepad.com

That was the Drury/Agent spin at the time. This is Buffalo Media. No need to do the leg work to follow it up. The pizza in the press room was still free then.

 

[rtfirefly]

We still keep Briere in this scenario. If Drury refuses to play ball mid season then Regier could have pivoted to Briere without much hoopla.

They could have. If Drury had quietly, behind closed doors, indicated to them that he was not staying under any circumstances. But when Golisano decided (rightly or wrongly) that they could afford only one, they chose Drury. Who was unbeknownst to the Sabres, already out the door. Darcy and Golisano were playing checkers, while Drury and his agent were playing chess.

 

[Irie]

Harold Ballard? Bill Wirtz??

How about Charles Wang?

Maybe Chuck would fire Adams and convince Comrie to retire and take the GM position?

Since nearly all the Adams haters seem to also be Comrie haters, it would certainly be something to watch the brief celebrations of joy disentigrating into bouts of primal rage as those announcements came out

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Sorry up front but I don't know the best thread to ask this question...

Been searching on the web for info on the Sabres 23-24 uniform decision and not finding much. My question is...

Are the Sabres retaining the Goat's Head black 3rd jersey for the 23-24 season?

I want to buy an authentic numbered and named and the Sabres Store only has Skinner's in a 54. Actually want a Dahlin but they are out of my size.

Any clues or leads welcomed

Thanks.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

What he’s trying to say is why trade a prospect prior to full development? Sometimes it makes sense, many times it doesn’t.

Examples?

Cause I think the 2oa would have been more valuable than what reinhart returned or what jack returned. Folino as prospect was worth more than what he returned.

I think there’s a misunderstanding of what you’re trying to do in the nhl draft versus what the nhl draft yields. It’s a bad draft. The Sabres have the luxury of having 5 of the 6 hardest to acquire assets you could ask being short 1 high end power forward. So once you’ve checked the boxes. Then roll some dice for some known commodities. Trains ready to roll. It’s like the Spencer brown talk, a prospect is hope, an established player is an expectation.