Speculation: Ryan Johansen "Softly in play"

[Cyclones Rock]

The best case scenario for this team would be to find a way to trade him with nothing but draft picks to someone who basically needs him for cap floor purposes. It keeps the prospects in the system, it keeps the current roster together, it opens up a spot.

This year the cap floor is $52.8 million. Colorado has the lowest payroll at $58.5 million. To my knowledge, Colorado didn't sign anyone to get to the floor.

It appears to me that the "get to the cap floor" angle isn't a realistic option. I'm not aware of a team which has willingly acquired an awful contract to get to the floor. I have a real hard time seeing an expansion team signing a stiff like Clarkson even with a floor issue. I'd think they'd just overpay players who could offer some value.

Getting rid of Clarkson would probably require getting rid of a first round pick plus a top player at this point in his contract. Not going to happen. The CBJ are stuck like chuck with his suck.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I actually agree with the OP - moving Johansen is an opportunity to try and get Clarkson gone.

If we start with a concept of Johansen for a d-man with upside but unrealized potential, the sketch of that trade would be:

Johansen for d-man+, and I don't think many people would disagree about the + requirement.

So then the plus becomes "you have to take Clarkson off our hands".

The other team would probably then think we needed some + coming their way, so ultimately we'd end up with

Johansen, Clarkson and maybe someone like Josh Anderson, or Forsberg or TJ Tynan
for
D-man

It's probably a pipe dream because Clarkson's contract was already far and away the worst in the league in every conceivable way, and now he's got health issues. But it's worth a hard sell attempt.

First, no one with a highly-touted young defenseman will ever agree to trade him for $12 mil in salary, especially when over $5 mil of that is complete unomvable dead weight.

Which means the only defensemen you're getting are going to be guys with huge upside and a lot of risk. This won't be Seth Jones or Aaron Ekblad, this will be Esa Lindell or Robert Hagg or Chris Bigras.

That's the cost of including Clarkson in a package. If for some reason you're the GM and have to get rid of Johansen, it'll have to be separate from Clarkson/Boll/Bourque/Campbell or whoever else. The cost of any of those guys in a package is worth less than Johansen by himself for several reasons.

 

[Mayor Bee]

This year the cap floor is $52.8 million. Colorado has the lowest payroll at $58.5 million. To my knowledge, Colorado didn't sign anyone to get to the floor.

It appears to me that the "get to the cap floor" angle isn't a realistic option. I'm not aware of a team which has willingly acquired an awful contract to get to the floor. I have a real hard time seeing an expansion team signing a stiff like Clarkson even with a floor issue. I'd think they'd just overpay players who could offer some value.

Getting rid of Clarkson would probably require getting rid of a first round pick plus a top player at this point in his contract. Not going to happen. The CBJ are stuck like chuck with his suck.

I was referring to dumping him on an expansion team for cap floor purposes. From an expansion team's standpoint, it would allow them to garner additional assets while doing nothing to ratchet up the salary scale leaguewide.

I wouldn't have thought that there was an actual tangible hockey cost to not insuring Horton's contract; turns out that it'll be whatever it takes to get rid of Clarkson, plus whatever gets lost in the collateral as well.

 

[Viqsi]

It would be extremely fitting for this franchise to trade it's first #1C to rid itself of Clarkson

If that happens I am officially done until the front office is replaced, because at that point they're not just goofy and incompetent, they're actively destructive. That's Kevin Lowe/Mike Milbury level mismanagement.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I was referring to dumping him on an expansion team for cap floor purposes. From an expansion team's standpoint, it would allow them to garner additional assets while doing nothing to ratchet up the salary scale leaguewide.

I wouldn't have thought that there was an actual tangible hockey cost to not insuring Horton's contract; turns out that it'll be whatever it takes to get rid of Clarkson, plus whatever gets lost in the collateral as well.

Am I correct in assuming that you would expect that the expansion team would get players/picks in addition to dear David?

It really is an unbelievable snafu. It really doesn't speak well of the FO that they created an additional mess when they thought that they were cleaning up their mess.

Off with their heads!

 

[Mayor Bee]

Am I correct in assuming that you would expect that the expansion team would get players/picks in addition to dear David?

It really is an unbelievable snafu. It really doesn't speak well of the FO that they created an additional mess when they thought that they were cleaning up their mess.

Off with their heads!

If I'm an expansion GM, there are two scenarios to consider with Columbus.

If he doesn't have to be protected, there's still no reason to take him. Kick in a couple of 1sts (and you'd damn well better believe I wouldn't take on that contract and that lack of production for less than two 1sts) and we can talk. It won't be enough, but we can talk.

If he does have to be protected, we can talk trade...three 1sts. Either that or be stuck with him, and I'll take an unprotected player that you really don't want to lose since you'll be forced to protect Clarkson.

Don't want to lose those assets, that's fine. We'll just call Philly and take on one of their dead weight contracts from a team that's actually willing to play ball to get itself out of a bad situation. Have fun being stuck with Clarkson.

 

[CBJx614]

Someone offered Hanifin and LA's 1st for Joey on the mains... That would be sure to perk up Jarmos ears.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

If I'm an expansion GM, there are two scenarios to consider with Columbus.

If he doesn't have to be protected, there's still no reason to take him. Kick in a couple of 1sts (and you'd damn well better believe I wouldn't take on that contract and that lack of production for less than two 1sts) and we can talk. It won't be enough, but we can talk.

If he does have to be protected, we can talk trade...three 1sts. Either that or be stuck with him, and I'll take an unprotected player that you really don't want to lose since you'll be forced to protect Clarkson.

Don't want to lose those assets, that's fine. We'll just call Philly and take on one of their dead weight contracts from a team that's actually willing to play ball to get itself out of a bad situation. Have fun being stuck with Clarkson.

If an expansion draft would take place after this season (which it won't) I could see a first going to the expansion team, but 3, c'mon now!

The timeline is working against an expansion resolution to the problem.

I don't see an expansion team for next year, so the earliest an expansion draft would be in 2017. At that point, Clarkson has 3 years left on his deal. If it's a year later, in 2018, then there's only two years left and $8.25 million in cash to pay. Even at its earliest possible point, it would probably be best just to suck it up as there would only be 3 years worth of pain to endure.

There's really no way out of this pickle in a meaningful time frame (by the beginning of next season) without parting with a combination of a high pick, a good player, and some salary retention.

On a somewhat related note. Has anyone seen anyone wearing a Clarkson Bluejackets sweater? I'd think that the CBJ Jeff Carter model would be a bigger seller.

 

[Viqsi]

Someone offered Hanifin and LA's 1st for Joey on the mains... That would be sure to perk up Jarmos ears.

Hey, great! Let's go ahead and roll the dice again! Of course, we've been rolling snake eyes constantly for the last fifteen years, but, hey, why not go for the "sell everybody over 25 and see y'all again in half a decade if the hockey gods smile on us" move?

Seriously. Given the amount of "good fortune" this franchise has experienced in the last 15 years (read: if anything, it's been consistently the precise opposite), I simply do not get why so many people are willing to trust to that possibility over and over and over again. IT DOES NOT WORK. WE HAVE FIFTEEN YEARS OF EVIDENCE PROVING IT DOES NOT WORK. WHY ARE WE DOING IT AGAIN!??!?!?!

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Hey, great! Let's go ahead and roll the dice again! Of course, we've been rolling snake eyes constantly for the last fifteen years, but, hey, why not go for the "sell everybody over 25 and see y'all again in half a decade if the hockey gods smile on us" move?

Seriously. Given the amount of "good fortune" this franchise has experienced in the last 15 years (read: if anything, it's been consistently the precise opposite), I simply do not get why so many people are willing to trust to that possibility over and over and over again. IT DOES NOT WORK. WE HAVE FIFTEEN YEARS OF EVIDENCE PROVING IT DOES NOT WORK. WHY ARE WE DOING IT AGAIN!??!?!?!

Because gambling is fun!

 

[Viqsi]

Because gambling is fun!

Then let's just relocate this ****ing franchise to Vegas already and quit jerking the city around.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Then let's just relocate this ****ing franchise to Vegas already and quit jerking the city around.

Well, that'd be one way to get rid of some bad contracts

 

[TaketheCannoli]

If that happens I am officially done until the front office is replaced, because at that point they're not just goofy and incompetent, they're actively destructive. That's Kevin Lowe/Mike Milbury level mismanagement.

We're already there. These guys are horrible.

 

[WannabeFinn]

We're already there. These guys are horrible.

I'd love to hear your explanation

 

[LoveCBJ]

Then let's just relocate this ****ing franchise to Vegas already and quit jerking the city around.

Was in Vegas awhile back, they are building a new arena.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Then let's just relocate this ****ing franchise to Vegas already and quit jerking the city around.

Well, that'd be one way to get rid of some bad contracts

 

[CBJx614]

*knocks on wood*
so if we finish in the bottom 10 and Johansen just puts up another season 60-70 pt season does anyone think management is going to want to put up with Overhardt and Joey. I mean i know its their job, but if they come back with another 6yr $36M to open I think we're going to be looking at a much worse outcome than getting a young cost controlled top pairing potential defenseman + a few picks.

I guess it really depends on Johansen himself. If they believe that maybe his ego has shrunken a little and has back down to earth and they can meet somewhere in between. Than I can see them working something out. But we dont know how that relationship between Johansen and the F.O looks like. Hell we dont even know what the real relationship between Joey and Torts looks like.

Listen I want to keep Johansen but going off of past negotations and expectations of Johansen im just leaning to the glass half empty outlook on this situation so that if something does work out I wont be let down. Its like pregaming for a party, only instead of getting drunk Im getting depressed just so that im ready to be extremely depressed when we lose him for nothing, or worse trade him for nothing.

 

[blahblah]

The big contractual knock on Johansen isn't the same as it was with Nash, which is having a cap hit out of skew with the rest of the league and similar players. Obviously the team would need an escape in the event that everything goes to hell and he needs to be moved. Would a $7 mil/season cap hit be particularly onerous for a team on the other end and preclude making a move? I'd say no, and the other side is that, unlike the previous CBA, retention of salary and/or bonus money by the trading team is now allowed. There are definitely a lot of moving pieces that could make a possible move down the road possible if it comes to that.

WTF are you talking about? They are going to ask for more than 8 million, where is this nonsensical 7 million coming from? Their camp is probably going to demand over 9 million a year. Don't be shocked if it's 10 million. Do you remember what they were asking for before he even had his 30 goal season? It's going to screw our cap world, a lot like Foligno will if he doesn't start playing more like last season. We've already got enough large contracts under-performing. I don't give a crap about the context of "compared to the rest of the league". That isn't the issue, never was. The issue is what will happen to our other assets in the event we pay him that 9+ million is camp is going to want. This most definitely compares to Nash because we don't want to overpay for a guy that really isn't going to help take our team to the next level. This kid got all greedy the moment Dubinsky got his contract, remember the joke tweet about Dubinsky and the #2 center? At least Nash had more class. He's a great player, I'm just not sure if I want him on this team for another decade or not.

This kid (well his agent) wants to get paid as one of the top 3 centers in the league. Right now he isn't.

Oh and I didn't read your little back and forth. I assume it had something to do with Howson. He sucked at pretty much everything but two things. He could draft and he could pull a hail mary trade out of a bad situation. Too bad he didn't have much else going for him. That we still have people pining over him is pretty sad really. It means this franchise has sucked for it's entire existence. I'm happy he helped this franchise get a good system in place that helped us to to a position of respectability; but his handling of a NHL roster was pathetic.

Time will tell if JK ends up better or not, but this weird obsession with "Johansen our first #1 center, we must keep him at all costs" is pretty darn scary to me.

Also don't forget it's just not the CBA, it's also the players contract itself you have to look at. I'm glad we have all those legal scholars looking at this on the business boards. It really doesn't matter anyway, an expansion team would take Hartnell over Clarkson in a heart beat. There are other veterans out there with larger contracts that teams would look at before Clarkson as well. They would take Tyutin over Clarkson as well.

 

[NotWendell]

Hey, great! Let's go ahead and roll the dice again! Of course, we've been rolling snake eyes constantly for the last fifteen years, but, hey, why not go for the "sell everybody over 25 and see y'all again in half a decade if the hockey gods smile on us" move?

Seriously. Given the amount of "good fortune" this franchise has experienced in the last 15 years (read: if anything, it's been consistently the precise opposite), I simply do not get why so many people are willing to trust to that possibility over and over and over again. IT DOES NOT WORK. WE HAVE FIFTEEN YEARS OF EVIDENCE PROVING IT DOES NOT WORK. WHY ARE WE DOING IT AGAIN!??!?!?!

Because we're DUE, baby!

 

[JacketsDavid]

I was referring to dumping him on an expansion team for cap floor purposes. From an expansion team's standpoint, it would allow them to garner additional assets while doing nothing to ratchet up the salary scale leaguewide.

I wouldn't have thought that there was an actual tangible hockey cost to not insuring Horton's contract; turns out that it'll be whatever it takes to get rid of Clarkson, plus whatever gets lost in the collateral as well.

Why would an expansion team take the worst contract in the league (and Clarkson isn't even a name to market) when there are plenty of bad contracts with guys that can give you something if you need to get to the floor.

An expansion team will likely have 100 bad contracts to choose from, all of which a team will give them something to take it. At least take a guy who was good, not a guy who at best is a 3rd line forward and to most is viewed as a 4th line forward.

Again unless we give up a boat load (as I mentioned package him with RyJo, or giving up 2 first round picks with Clarkson and getting back a 3rd round pick or something)

 

[Viqsi]

Because we're DUE, baby!

Bull. If that was the case we'd have won last year's draft lottery.

* * *​

Time will tell if JK ends up better or not, but this weird obsession with "Johansen our first #1 center, we must keep him at all costs" is pretty darn scary to me.

Would you prefer waiting another twelve years (if we're lucky - Nashville's gone seventeen years without) for another shot at one? Personally, I've got a nephew who's just starting to get into hockey and I'd love to be able to show him a team that at least can pretend to be competitive before he goes to college.

 

[Mayor Bee]

WTF are you talking about? They are going to ask for more than 8 million, where is this nonsensical 7 million coming from? Their camp is probably going to demand over 9 million a year. Don't be shocked if it's 10 million. Do you remember what they were asking for before he even had his 30 goal season? It's going to screw our cap world, a lot like Foligno will if he doesn't start playing more like last season. We've already got enough large contracts under-performing. I don't give a crap about the context of "compared to the rest of the league". That isn't the issue, never was. The issue is what will happen to our other assets in the event we pay him that 9+ million is camp is going to want. This most definitely compares to Nash because we don't want to overpay for a guy that really isn't going to help take our team to the next level. This kid got all greedy the moment Dubinsky got his contract, remember the joke tweet about Dubinsky and the #2 center? At least Nash had more class. He's a great player, I'm just not sure if I want him on this team for another decade or not.

This kid (well his agent) wants to get paid as one of the top 3 centers in the league. Right now he isn't.

What he asks for and what he gets are two very different things. And yes, his contract compared to the rest of the league's marketplace is absolutely important. Any good team has to be able to move a player in the trade market if the need arises, and the more out of skew a contract is, the tougher that becomes. Clarkson would be in demand at 1/4 of the current price, maybe even 1/2 the price.

Oh and I didn't read your little back and forth. I assume it had something to do with Howson. He sucked at pretty much everything but two things. He could draft and he could pull a hail mary trade out of a bad situation. Too bad he didn't have much else going for him. That we still have people pining over him is pretty sad really. It means this franchise has sucked for it's entire existence. I'm happy he helped this franchise get a good system in place that helped us to to a position of respectability; but his handling of a NHL roster was pathetic.

Entirely 100% predictable. And I know because I predicted it.

Also don't forget it's just not the CBA, it's also the players contract itself you have to look at. I'm glad we have all those legal scholars looking at this on the business boards. It really doesn't matter anyway, an expansion team would take Hartnell over Clarkson in a heart beat. There are other veterans out there with larger contracts that teams would look at before Clarkson as well. They would take Tyutin over Clarkson as well.

Tyutin has two years left on his contract after this year, Hartnell three, Clarkson four. And if the same parameters are used next time around as the last group of expansion drafts, it would either be a goalie and a forward, a defenseman and a forward, or two forwards that get lost. Once a goalie is taken, the team can't lose another goalie or a defenseman; if a defenseman is taken, the team can't lose another defenseman.

I would point you toward the readily-available copy of the CBA and an SPC that are available online so you can analyze it yourself, but undoubtedly those wouldn't get read either.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I'd love to hear your explanation

I realize you meant to be funny. Here's what I mean:

We have a front office that seems to be totally hung up on shiny new offensive objects. They have invested a lot in these shiny objects like Gaborik, Horton and Saad. They made a major trade for a shiny new Saad when defense was desperately needed. This team is bad because the defense has been ignored.

Now to cover the stupidity of not insuring Horton, this Kevin Lowe/Oren Koules -esq front office traded for Clarkson arguably the worst contract in the history of the NHL and it appears the team will have to give away significant assets because they have so much committed long term. This team is up against the cap and stuck yet it needs to re-sign a number of important players and may not have the cap space to sign them.

Yes their trading, decisions and overall management are Kevin Lowe bad.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I realize you meant to be funny. Here's what I mean:

We have a front office that seems to be totally hung up on shiny new offensive objects. They have invested a lot in these shiny objects like Gaborik, Horton and Saad. They made a major trade for a shiny new Saad when defense was desperately needed. This team is bad because the defense has been ignored.

Now to cover the stupidity of not insuring Horton, this Kevin Lowe/Oren Koules -esq front office traded for Clarkson arguably the worst contract in the history of the NHL and it appears the team will have to give away significant assets because they have so much committed long term. This team is up against the cap and stuck yet it needs to re-sign a number of important players and may not have the cap space to sign them.

Yes their trading, decisions and overall management are Kevin Lowe bad.

That's more a description of Milbury, who had plenty to work with and whose impatience destroyed what may well have become a dynasty. Lowe was simply inept at everything.

I don't know if anyone remembers those Ron Popeil commercials for the Showtime rotisserie. He'd blather on about the capacity of the device, and how great it was, and so on. But the tagline for it was "SET IT....AND FORGET IT!" Basically, once the food went into the rotisserie, there was nothing to do except be patient and wait for the finished product.

And Milbury just couldn't do that. He had the chicken, he had the rub, he had the herbs and spices, he had the rotisserie. But like a hungry child, he'd keep opening the rotisserie time and again to see if it was done, not realizing that he was putting off how much longer it would take to actually cook every time that he did it. And then less than halfway through, he just got mad and threw the whole thing away and made pizza instead. Badly.

Am I saying that Ron Popeil would make a better GM than Milbury? Well, I doubt Popeil could have acquired the staggering amount of top-level assets that Milbury did, but I also doubt that he would have been so impatient as to squander them all before any part of it could come to fruition.

 

[We Want Ten]

Would you prefer waiting another twelve years (if we're lucky - Nashville's gone seventeen years without) for another shot at one? Personally, I've got a nephew who's just starting to get into hockey and I'd love to be able to show him a team that at least can pretend to be competitive before he goes to college.

This narrative is bull for the umpteen millionth time. Nashville has drafted exactly 1 C in the first round since 1998 and that was David Legwand in 1998.