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RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 6

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Baksfamous112 said:
Does these two have to be mutually exclusive? I think it would be fair to say that because Ovy bought into the system everyone else did as well. It ended up being short lived but it did bring them a cup.
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I think they could have won a Cup with him in any number of ways. Kucherov isn’t exactly a defensive stalwart and he’s got 2 rings.

I just don’t think you can say OV won, or could have won more, because he started playing a more responsible game. He could have won cherry picking and scoring a ton of points if the Caps didn’t run into the Pens every year and/or a better team was around him.

I just don’t see it as an argument to risk the offensive upside of a player of Michkov’s skill set for the sake of “playing the right way.”
 
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SomeDude said:
I think they could have won a Cup with him in any number of ways. Kucherov isn’t exactly a defensive stalwart and he’s got 2 rings.

I just don’t think you can say OV won, or could have won more, because he started playing a more responsible game. He could have won cherry picking and scoring a ton of points if the Caps didn’t run into the Pens every year and/or a better team was around him.

I just don’t see it as an argument to risk the offensive upside of a player of Michkov’s skill set for the sake of “playing the right way.”
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A good defensive doesn't necessarily neglect the offensive side of your game when done right. What Ovy changed the year he won the cup is he was taking more responsible decisions - which he hasn't done through his career.

A good example is when you're winning 3-2 with 5 minutes left in the game. You've been on the ice for 35-40 seconds already in the defensive zone and your D gets the puck behind the net and feed you on the wing. Prime Ovy would have skated through the neutral zone and tried a high event play - Either trying to skate through 2-3 players or cut through the middle and take a shot that probably had a 1% chance of going in. The puck turns over and the opposing team clear the puck and a odd man rush goes the other way and you have a gassed up Ovy coming back the other way. Ovy through Trotz system would have simply crossed the red line an dumped the puck and went for a line change.

The more responsible players (even the offensive minded ones) are aware of the score and play to win & not to stack up as many points as possible. This is one of the reason why Crosby has 3 cup and Ovy only one. Most rookies doesn't have that awareness (just yet) and I believe it is important for young players to learn that aspect of the game. It doesn't mean you have to play with two hands tied behind your back offensively either.

Michkov - as many other young players - have that problem. They don't play the scoreboard, they play to score and I think this is what Tortorella has been trying to teach Michkov, that hockey is not a one way street and that timing is important when taking chances and trying low % hockey plays.
 
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Baksfamous112 said:
A good defensive doesn't necessarily neglect the offensive side of your game when done right. What Ovy changed the year he won the cup is he was taking more responsible decisions - which he hasn't done through his career.

A good example is when you're winning 3-2 with 5 minutes left in the game. You've been on the ice for 35-40 seconds already in the defensive zone and your D gets the puck behind the net and feed you on the wing. Prime Ovy would have skated through the neutral zone and tried a high event play - Either trying to skate through 2-3 players or cut through the middle and take a shot that probably had a 1% chance of going in. The puck turns over and the opposing team clear the puck and a odd man rush goes the other way and you have a gassed up Ovy coming back the other way. Ovy through Trotz system would have simply crossed the red line an dumped the puck and went for a line change.

The more responsible players (even the offensive minded ones) are aware of the score and play to win & not to stack up as many points as possible. This is one of the reason why Crosby has 3 cup and Ovy only one. Most rookies doesn't have that awareness (just yet) and I believe it is important for young players to learn that aspect of the game. It doesn't mean you have to play with two hands tied behind your back offensively either.

Michkov - as many other young players - have that problem. They don't play the scoreboard, they play to score and I think this is what Tortorella has been trying to teach Michkov, that hockey is not a one way street and that timing is important when taking chances and trying low % hockey plays.
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I am not arguing that in a perfect world your scoring wingers will also be able to be relied upon to not be a defensive liability.

I think a lot of what you’re describing also just comes naturally with maturing and experience.

I do think there is a potential to have a negative impact specifically on a young rookie’s offensive ceiling when you have them scared to make a mistake so they don’t get benched or screamed at on the bench.

Nurture their natural skills and instincts. Once they have established the part of their game at the NHL level that got them there in the first place, then it would be more appropriate to start working on the finer details.

I think teams/coaches have it backwards in that regard. Michkov especially. What are the Flyers winning in the next 3 years even if Torts somehow turned Michkov into a Selke candidate? Just let the kid establish his game as an offensive threat and then worry if you can trust him on the ice late in a 1 goal game when the team may actually be playing meaningful games.
 
SomeDude said:
I am not arguing that in a perfect world your scoring wingers will also be able to be relied upon to not be a defensive liability.

I think a lot of what you’re describing also just comes naturally with maturing and experience.

I do think there is a potential to have a negative impact specifically on a young rookie’s offensive ceiling when you have them scared to make a mistake so they don’t get benched or screamed at on the bench.

Nurture their natural skills and instincts. Once they have established the part of their game at the NHL level that got them there in the first place, then it would be more appropriate to start working on the finer details.

I think teams/coaches have it backwards in that regard. Michkov especially. What are the Flyers winning in the next 3 years even if Torts somehow turned Michkov into a Selke candidate? Just let the kid establish his game as an offensive threat and then worry if you can trust him on the ice late in a 1 goal game when the team may actually be playing meaningful games.
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Because if you don't tackle these issues from the beginning of their career, you see players form bad habits and they are very hard to get rid of once they mature and the team is ready to compete.

I also don't think any coaches in the league are trying to negatively impact a player's (especially a young one) offensive instinct and talent. I would even challenge you to point towards specifics that Torts did to hold back Michkov offensively.

There's a world of difference between asking (or teaching) a player to play smart rather than forming bad habits. Not only that, but imagine what happens if a coach lets it slide for a few players but is hard on the others. What do you think will happen with the other young players and veterans if Torts let Michkov run wild? They'll think it's fine and they'll say to each other than if the most talented player on the team is allowed to do that, why wouldn't they?It wouldn't work and it's not the kind of culture you want to have on your team.
 
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Baksfamous112 said:
Because if you don't tackle these issues from the beginning of their career, you see players form bad habits and they are very hard to get rid of once they mature and the team is ready to compete.

I also don't think any coaches in the league are trying to negatively impact a player's (especially a young one) offensive instinct and talent. I would even challenge you to point towards specifics that Torts did to hold back Michkov offensively.

There's a world of difference between asking (or teaching) a player to play smart rather than forming bad habits. Not only that, but imagine what happens if a coach lets it slide for a few players but is hard on the others. What do you think will happen with the other young players and veterans if Torts let Michkov run wild? They'll think it's fine and they'll say to each other than if the most talented player on the team is allowed to do that, why wouldn't they?It wouldn't work and it's not the kind of culture you want to have on your team.
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Your line of thinking is the generally accepted one. Mine is admittedly different.

As I said, I think players have enough to worry about in the transition to the NHL than trying to add details to their game that they never worried about before.

I do not think coaches set out to negatively effect the offensive ability of a player for the sake of defensive responsibility, but it can be an unintended consequence.

I also do not think this should be applied across the board to any forward who has offensive ability. This is for guys with tremendous, franchise altering upside. I just don’t see the payoff in fretting over that type of player missing his defensive assignment from time to time when you need them to hit their potential for the sake of the franchise.

There is also a difference between keeping lazy habits from developing and harping on them about the smaller details.

As for the other players, they should know hockey isn’t a place where all guys are treated equally. Everyone has their own role with different responsibilities and expectations. The star player always gets more leeway than a 4th liner when it comes to details. Thats life as a hockey player.
 
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