Olympics: Russia Roster Discussion (Roster in post 1)

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

There is not a better overall defender in the entire Olympics then Vlad hands down and I'm ashamed this poster I quoted said Markov would be worth 10 Gavrikovs...

I actually praised Gavrikov, if you read the whole post, and have always written great things about him. He's a great young defenseman and has the potential to become an NHL first-pairing player.
Markov being worth 10 Gavrikovs was just hyperbole. Two things: I wrote "in his prime", and second, Markov was one of the best defensemen in the world. In his prime, he scored 65 points in the NHL. He reached a status that only great Russian defensemen like Zubov or Fetisov reached.

 

[Leafblooded]

I actually praised Gavrikov, if you read the whole post, and have always written great things about him. He's a great young defenseman and has the potential to become an NHL first-pairing player.
Markov being worth 10 Gavrikovs was just hyperbole. Two things: I wrote "in his prime", and second, Markov was one of the best defensemen in the world. In his prime, he scored 65 points in the NHL. He reached a status that only great Russian defensemen like Zubov or Fetisov reached.

Just no

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Just no

Well, from a Leafs fan I think it's normal

 

[migi]

What is with Shipachyov? He practised day before yesterday..

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Russia beat USA 4-0 and in the quarter finals will play Slovenia, Norway or Germany?

If I understand things right the bracket isn´t standardized on beforehand based on your position, which will determine who you will play right ahead. Instead all teams are ranked 1-12 after the groupstage from the following order:

1. higher position in the group
2. higher number of points
3. better goal difference
4. higher number of goals scored for
5. better 2017 IIHF World Ranking.

Based on that - Since Russia got 0 points in their first game it will make it hard to become the best ranked team among other group winners, which at the moment logically would place them as 3rd best ranked.
Since we already know Slovenia will face the 11th best ranked team in the playoff-round and thereafter the 3rd best ranked team from the preliminary round - we might expect Russia to play Slovenia or the next worst ranked team, which will be the loser between Norway and Germany unless South Korea pulls of a 5 goal victory over Canada.

 

[ovikovy817]

Normally it should be
1/4 vs the winner of Slovenia - NOR/GER (the loser of Norway/Germany)
1/2 vs Czechs

Canada and Filand should battle in 1/4 and will play against SWE in 1/2

 

[BMann]

The old system that is disparaged is the one that led to huge success in a huge range of sports. The formula is pretty simple. Provide the facilities to all. Spot the kids who are doing well and give them the best coaching and then keep refining and sieving the talent.

There is a lack of infrastructure outside of the major metropolitan areas. Their is a lack of access to all. The level of coaching is not good enough. The number of Russian coaches in various sports working abroad is very high. There is no concerted plan to give youngsters exposure and a developmental path. It's all about the glitz of owning a club be it football, volleyball and populating it with ageing overseas players and short term plans. Maybe the improvement post nineties will help the future juniors. Problems can be rectified as seen with the improvement in netminding and prospects.

It's not always about numbers. Yes you need a minimum in a pyramid to be consistently successful so that you avoid barren periods and a golden generation syndrome. More numbers are useful but as mentioned identifying talent, developing it to the full still results in a top class team as seen with the Red Machine.

There is no room for excuses. It's all down to the ruling bodies, the Minister for Sport. These people love the PR from hosting events like Sochi and the World Cup but are not actually doing anything concerted for sport. And it applies to a whole range of other areas within Russia.

 

[migi]

Any inside if Shipachyov is injured?

 

[Yakushev72]

What is with Shipachyov? He practised day before yesterday..

I don't know about injuries, but he played poorly against Slovakia, and they may have put him on the bench to try someone who has more upside in front of the goal. I was no fan of Kablukov, but he has played well and definitely contributed. He has size and muscle and can play tough in the difficult area. Shipachyov is highly skilled, but more of a perimeter player, and the team certainly has plenty of those.

 

[Yakushev72]

The old system that is disparaged is the one that led to huge success in a huge range of sports. The formula is pretty simple. Provide the facilities to all. Spot the kids who are doing well and give them the best coaching and then keep refining and sieving the talent.

There is a lack of infrastructure outside of the major metropolitan areas. Their is a lack of access to all. The level of coaching is not good enough. The number of Russian coaches in various sports working abroad is very high. There is no concerted plan to give youngsters exposure and a developmental path. It's all about the glitz of owning a club be it football, volleyball and populating it with ageing overseas players and short term plans. Maybe the improvement post nineties will help the future juniors. Problems can be rectified as seen with the improvement in netminding and prospects.

It's not always about numbers. Yes you need a minimum in a pyramid to be consistently successful so that you avoid barren periods and a golden generation syndrome. More numbers are useful but as mentioned identifying talent, developing it to the full still results in a top class team as seen with the Red Machine.

There is no room for excuses. It's all down to the ruling bodies, the Minister for Sport. These people love the PR from hosting events like Sochi and the World Cup but are not actually doing anything concerted for sport. And it applies to a whole range of other areas within Russia.

Well said! Expand opportunities for more kids to be trained in the game, and intensify the training with a system that mimics in some way the success of the 1960-90 era. Many of the top bosses (e.g., Tretiak) have grown up with those methods and should know them well.

 

[Fantomas]

There is a lack of infrastructure outside of the major metropolitan areas. Their is a lack of access to all.

There is a word for this too. Gosh I wish I could remember it.

 

[Yakushev72]

There is a word for this too. Gosh I wish I could remember it.

Does it start with a "C?"

 

[Boonk]

How has Datsyuk looked so far?

 

[Yakushev72]

How has Datsyuk looked so far?

In a class by himself. It seems as though time has stood still. He is amazing!

 

[LetsGoFlyers12]

How has Datsyuk looked so far?

Datsyuk has looked terrific. Easily the best center on the roster and likely in the entire tournament. Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Kaprizov and Gusev have been in a class of their own as far as the Russian forwards go (in my opinion)

 

[Firsov99]

Datsyuk has looked terrific. Easily the best center on the roster and likely in the entire tournament. Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Kaprizov and Gusev have been in a class of their own as far as the Russian forwards go (in my opinion)

It will be a sad day when Pavel retires from hockey. What a special player he is.

 

[BMann]

Well said! Expand opportunities for more kids to be trained in the game, and intensify the training with a system that mimics in some way the success of the 1960-90 era. Many of the top bosses (e.g., Tretiak) have grown up with those methods and should know them well.

I am worried that many of the bosses are more interested in self preservation rather than ruffling feathers and asking for change from above and from those that control the wealth in Russia and run the clubs as toys. It would not require too much intelligence to make the necessary changes and the amount of money wasted on vanity projects could help countless sporting programmes. Not to mention recruit all those Russian coaches that were lost in the nineties. And recruiting some of the athletes that have Russian parentage who have grown up abroad and are highly successful.

And where the expertise has been lost that money could and should have been used to bring in the best foreign coaches ie the fencers under Bauer and then Cerioni. Sochi was supposed to revolutionize the country in all winter sports and reinvigorate them but surely the money would have been better spent on new facilities in the Urals say for skiing disciplines and artificial slopes around the country ? Or indoor ski centres and the like.

I will say it again there is also a mental fragility with many Russian athletes that never used to be there. The training perhaps is not harsh or demanding enough and mediocrity is acceptable or the psychological training is not there either.

Tretiak could have instituted changes when he took over. Had a look at the developmental programmes of other leading teams, examined the legacy of the Red Machine and created the pathways for juniors to progress and be retained in the Russian school. There is no doubt whatsoever that going to North America is for the most part detrimental to the Russian juniors. It's eroding the national style, eliminating the flair and makes it hard to make a cohesive national team. The best juniors should be collected into regional sides and playing sides senior to them in age consistently to accelerate their development and forcing KHL teams to play the top juniors. Not a few minutes on the fourth line here and there but consistently.

 

[vorky]

I am worried that many of the bosses are more interested in self preservation rather than ruffling feathers and asking for change from above and from those that control the wealth in Russia and run the clubs as toys. It would not require too much intelligence to make the necessary changes and the amount of money wasted on vanity projects could help countless sporting programmes. Not to mention recruit all those Russian coaches that were lost in the nineties. And recruiting some of the athletes that have Russian parentage who have grown up abroad and are highly successful.

And where the expertise has been lost that money could and should have been used to bring in the best foreign coaches ie the fencers under Bauer and then Cerioni. Sochi was supposed to revolutionize the country in all winter sports and reinvigorate them but surely the money would have been better spent on new facilities in the Urals say for skiing disciplines and artificial slopes around the country ? Or indoor ski centres and the like.

I will say it again there is also a mental fragility with many Russian athletes that never used to be there. The training perhaps is not harsh or demanding enough and mediocrity is acceptable or the psychological training is not there either.

Tretiak could have instituted changes when he took over. Had a look at the developmental programmes of other leading teams, examined the legacy of the Red Machine and created the pathways for juniors to progress and be retained in the Russian school. There is no doubt whatsoever that going to North America is for the most part detrimental to the Russian juniors. It's eroding the national style, eliminating the flair and makes it hard to make a cohesive national team. The best juniors should be collected into regional sides and playing sides senior to them in age consistently to accelerate their development and forcing KHL teams to play the top juniors. Not a few minutes on the fourth line here and there but consistently.

There have been changes since Arkady Rotenberg became a head of the Russian Hockey Federation in 2015.
A national developing program is in the making, including a creation of hockey centers (I hope five, one in Novosibirsk & Far East) and small rinks. Rules on coaches education program approved. Russia´s problem is low level of hockey schools, so kids under 17 years. The MHL is OK, the VHL is developing - so many young guys here. If you are a good prospect you will get a chance in the KHL. Only problem is that guys give up & moving abroad. "I would not get a chance in Russia" attitude is excuse. You need to work hard to make it to the KHL. Giving up when first problems appear, is not a good attitude.

Note, rules on agents is under review as well. Now agents tell a prospect a fairytales about the NHL and NA juniors And that is a problem.

 

[Remix]

Is Shipachyov gonna play in this tourney anymore? Is he injured?

 

[Yakushev72]

There have been changes since Arkady Rotenberg became a head of the Russian Hockey Federation in 2015.
A national developing program is in the making, including a creation of hockey centers (I hope five, one in Novosibirsk & Far East) and small rinks. Rules on coaches education program approved. Russia´s problem is low level of hockey schools, so kids under 17 years. The MHL is OK, the VHL is developing - so many young guys here. If you are a good prospect you will get a chance in the KHL. Only problem is that guys give up & moving abroad. "I would not get a chance in Russia" attitude is excuse. You need to work hard to make it to the KHL. Giving up when first problems appear, is not a good attitude.

Note, rules on agents is under review as well. Now agents tell a prospect a fairytales about the NHL and NA juniors And that is a problem.

Large-scale and deep improvements of the kind discussed by BMann are very important to reach the plateaus which Russians are otherwise capable of reaching. The mass migration overseas will continue to delay, but hopefully will not derail, the needed improvements.

In my view, the biggest absurdity is guys who have talent suited for big rinks, but are very small in size, still continue to flock to the CHL and other NA destinations. Two cases in point are Sergei Tolchinsky and Vitaly Abramov. Tolchinsky is a very talented and skilled player who wasted his time going to NA when he has no hope of ever filling a regular spot on an NHL roster. Players who are as small and non-physical as Tolchinsky have literally no chance to make a career in the NHL, yet agents like his continue to steer players like him to NA under the premise that they have a good shot of making it in the NHL. Of course they don't. Never will.

 

[vorky]

Large-scale and deep improvements of the kind discussed by BMann are very important to reach the plateaus which Russians are otherwise capable of reaching. The mass migration overseas will continue to delay, but hopefully will not derail, the needed improvements.

In my view, the biggest absurdity is guys who have talent suited for big rinks, but are very small in size, still continue to flock to the CHL and other NA destinations. Two cases in point are Sergei Tolchinsky and Vitaly Abramov. Tolchinsky is a very talented and skilled player who wasted his time going to NA when he has no hope of ever filling a regular spot on an NHL roster. Players who are as small and non-physical as Tolchinsky have literally no chance to make a career in the NHL, yet agents like his continue to steer players like him to NA under the premise that they have a good shot of making it in the NHL. Of course they don't. Never will.

Yes, there are agents who give a bad advise to players. Advise like "Russian hockey system sucks, US/CAN great. You can make the NHL only if playing NA juniors." Of course, that is not true. All great Russian NHLers fully developped in Russia. Even Kucherov. If comparing Tolchinsky & Abramov. Look at Gusev, who is similar to them. Stayed in Russia & became a great player. No need to move overseas when not ready. Btw, Traktor quaranteed Abramov a KHL spot, he refused. What is a problem then?

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Wohoo! The olympic gold medal in ice hockey is won by the russians and comes home to Moscow! Finally!

What a crazy game, filled by emotions and historic aspirations in what will be remembered in the history books of the olympic games!

This team and the players really deserved some joy, especially thinking of a great patriot like Kovalchuk and legendary Datsyuk! Also thinking about the 5 players that the IOC banned for no reason and the world cheering against the russians just because of their nationality even though it comes down to a group of great guys who have always loved this sport and done their best to represent the country they grew up in - to win it for the people they stand close to and share culture, history and fate with.
I hope they get celebrated well coming home with the gold!

Good to see younger players being able to step up in big games and become heroes!

 

[LowSodium]

Gusev should be in the NHL.

 

[Atas2000]

Gusev should be in the NHL.

Why? He looks just fine. Unlike Mikhail Mr.Invisible Grigorenko, who chose to develop in NA.

Russians should play in Russia for russian fans.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Gusev is already developed enough to play in the NHL. The best players should play in the best league. KHL isn't the Soviet league and will never be the one.