Waived: Rundblad

[Blackhawkswincup]

 

[scarchelli]

Hahaha.

I like this because you are probably pissed.

 

[JaegerDice]

Well, they'll have him around to include in a trade if anybody wants him, and if not, he'll be called up for the black aces come playoff time in case of injury.

Maybe Rozsival will break his other ankle.

 

[hawksrule]

Addressing problem areas, even poorly or inefficiently, is better than not addressing them at all.

We're talking past each other, but I isolated this comment because it cuts to the heart of our discussion. Addressing a problem at face value is inherently neutral. You can address it well, you can address it poorly. Addressing something poorly isn't better than not addressing it (if you try to kick cigarettes by substituting crack and heroin, have you made the situation better or worse?)

We had a need for an inexpensive dman. After acquiring Rundblad that need was just as great as before, only we had one fewer 2nd in the kitty. The point isn't that picks are sacrosanct. I don't think our views are divergent there. My point, and it was only a mild criticism of Stan, was that he too liberally sends away draft picks. Vermette wasn't an example of this. Rundblad and Timmonen were, and it didnt take hindsight to know this. Montreal acquired Petry for a 2nd last year. I'd love to make a similar trade this year, only we no longer have a 2nd and got nothing useful in return for it.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

We're talking past each other, but I isolated this comment because it cuts to the heart of our discussion. Addressing a problem at face value is inherently neutral. You can address it well, you can address it poorly. Addressing something poorly isn't better than not addressing it (if you try to kick cigarettes by substituting crack and heroin, have you made the situation better or worse?)

We had a need for an inexpensive dman. After acquiring Rundblad that need was just as great as before, only we had one fewer 2nd in the kitty. The point isn't that picks are sacrosanct. I don't think our views are divergent there. My point, and it was only a mild criticism of Stan, was that he too liberally sends away draft picks. Vermette wasn't an example of this. Rundblad and Timmonen were, and it didnt take hindsight to know this. Montreal acquired Petry for a 2nd last year. I'd love to make a similar trade this year, only we no longer have a 2nd and got nothing useful in return for it.

I agree with this. It's not a huge problem (compared to, say, the Rangers and the Penguins, who I think have caused themselves problems the way the trade away picks) - but I do think Stan should be a bit more careful in this regard. A bigger problem is how he gives away NTCs like candy...but that's for another thread.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

I think, considering how late our 1sts are the picks aren't that big of a deal. Everyone likes to say "oh, so and so got ____ with this 2nd/1st round pick" without discussing the other picks right around said spot that haven't done a damn thing. We're in "win now" mode big time and if TVR/Panarin continue trending up, plus we find room to sign them down the road, I'm fine with trading away more pics for rentals/holes.

 

[featherhawk]

I think, considering how late our 1sts are the picks aren't that big of a deal. Everyone likes to say "oh, so and so got ____ with this 2nd/1st round pick" without discussing the other picks right around said spot that haven't done a damn thing. We're in "win now" mode big time and if TVR/Panarin continue trending up, plus we find room to sign them down the road, I'm fine with trading away more pics for rentals/holes.

agreed but I would also add that TT and Dano are important pieces that have to develop....

gotta love the hawks signing guys for nothing but at some point that will likely stop...Paliotta they signed last year then flipped in the Saad trade doesn't bode well for more signings like that....

 

[hockeydoug]

We're talking past each other, but I isolated this comment because it cuts to the heart of our discussion. Addressing a problem at face value is inherently neutral. You can address it well, you can address it poorly. Addressing something poorly isn't better than not addressing it (if you try to kick cigarettes by substituting crack and heroin, have you made the situation better or worse?)

We had a need for an inexpensive dman. After acquiring Rundblad that need was just as great as before, only we had one fewer 2nd in the kitty. The point isn't that picks are sacrosanct. I don't think our views are divergent there. My point, and it was only a mild criticism of Stan, was that he too liberally sends away draft picks. Vermette wasn't an example of this. Rundblad and Timmonen were, and it didnt take hindsight to know this. Montreal acquired Petry for a 2nd last year. I'd love to make a similar trade this year, only we no longer have a 2nd and got nothing useful in return for it.

I'm saying the need wasn't as great as before. The prospects were appropriately bumped down the chain, and another NHL ready RHD was there to support the top 6 in case of injury and Bowman could focus on other parts of the roster and organization since holes were at least marginally plugged. It's easier to fix things up and down the system once he was there, that's why getting a Rundblad is better than not getting a Rundblad. He wasn't good, but his acquisition and extension is part of a very good, and proven operational philosophy in my opinion.

He struggled, but they were able to move along better with a flawed player than without one. Since he didn't thrive, he's gone for a better option.

We can agree to disagree significantly on the value of 2nd round picks if prospects of comparable worth are still being slotted into the organization. As far as Petry over Timmo, they weren't the same player and Chicago already had Right shooting d covered. If both teams lost in the CF, it would have been an identical trade except MTL already lost their pick for good, Bowman can still offset his loss. I never liked that trade because I didn't trust his health but it made more sense to me than a Petry acquisition but I digress.

In terms of being cavalier about trading picks, I disagree. As long as they're restacking the system and organizational voids, and not throwing away elite players' prime years, they're doing exactly what they should be doing imo. Now if they weren't landing prospects that could jump into some NHL minutes and good AHL minutes, then I would agree that they should reconsider how many picks they throw away so they don't end up like PHI or Pit.

 

[Pez68]

Well, they'll have him around to include in a trade if anybody wants him, and if not, he'll be called up for the black aces come playoff time in case of injury.

Maybe Rozsival will break his other ankle.

Let's hope not, because Rozsival is a much better option than Rundblad.

 

[hawksrule]

I'm saying the need wasn't as great as before.

So you're back to any warm body addressing the need. I don't buy it, and I maintain that if your satisfied with any warm body, one needn't give up a 2nd in exchange. Let me put it another way. Rundblad is still on a very cheap contract. How come we can't trade him for a 6th? How come no one will take him for free? Was Stan just smarter than every other executive in the league in recognizing Rundblad's value? Obviously not, it's because picks have value relative to players. My issue isn't with acquiring Rundblad, it was with giving up something of value to get him. For the umpteenth time, it's not the same as the TVR approach. One could have signed a ufa warm body instead of Rundblad and maintained that flexibility for the system that you covet.

We can agree to disagree significantly on the value of 2nd round picks if prospects of comparable worth are still being slotted into the organization.

You haven't established this. Your graph measured correlation of games played with draft position, but you haven't shown anything regarding udfa's experiencing success at the same rate of 2nd rounders.

As far as Petry over Timmo, they weren't the same player and Chicago already had Right shooting d covered. If both teams lost in the CF, it would have been an identical trade except MTL already lost their pick for good, Bowman can still offset his loss. I never liked that trade because I didn't trust his health but it made more sense to me than a Petry acquisition but I digress.

I didn't present a Petry vs. Timmo argument for the reasons you cited, which I agree with. The point was that when a player of comparable value to Petry becomes available this tdl, the Hawks don't have the pick to flip for him because they were liberally wasted on Rundblad/Timmo.

In terms of being cavalier about trading picks, I disagree. As long as they're restacking the system and organizational voids, and not throwing away elite players' prime years, they're doing exactly what they should be doing imo. Now if they weren't landing prospects that could jump into some NHL minutes and good AHL minutes, then I would agree that they should reconsider how many picks they throw away so they don't end up like PHI or Pit.

That's missing the point. They can still sign udfa's while getting better value for the departing 2nd's.

 

[BobbyJet]

I suspect that this will be the last time I type "Bladder" in a sentence.

 

[hockeydoug]

So you're back to any warm body addressing the need. I don't buy it, and I maintain that if your satisfied with any warm body, one needn't give up a 2nd in exchange. Let me put it another way. Rundblad is still on a very cheap contract. How come we can't trade him for a 6th? How come no one will take him for free? Was Stan just smarter than every other executive in the league in recognizing Rundblad's value? Obviously not, it's because picks have value relative to players. My issue isn't with acquiring Rundblad, it was with giving up something of value to get him. For the umpteenth time, it's not the same as the TVR approach. One could have signed a ufa warm body instead of Rundblad and maintained that flexibility for the system that you covet.



You haven't established this. Your graph measured correlation of games played with draft position, but you haven't shown anything regarding udfa's experiencing success at the same rate of 2nd rounders.

TVR is in Chicago, in part, because they don't clog up the system with long term projects that eat up good TOI minutes like so many teams that "build (or try badly) from within" with piles of picks. Giving up picks, keeping TOI available or not, and being able to maximize effective minutes relative to a cap hit is the key. It would be great to get a 6th for Rundblad, but he wasn't good. He wasn't just a body either, he plugged a number of deficiencies (also helped land Rasmussen). It still doesn't hurt the franchise with the exception of that 100K.

I see what you're saying about "what if better option X" is available. I can't imagine the scenario, but what I can see is that the likelihood of a better outcome has the odds are stacked against that. Deadline deals for picks are seldom a "win" on paper as a rule.

Leaving a hole versus filling it marginally is a really bad idea for a contender. Rundblad was disappointing, but it still improved the team in the intermediate term because of how it aligned everything. Because he wasn't eating up time in RKD, just like Rundblad is unlikely to do if he gets in the way of an acquisition, Chi has a better likelihood to land good udfas as well.

About the value of UFDAs relative to 2nds, 5 everyday players have been gained from 2nd rounders since 2011 as mentioned earlier, more are on the way but they're still not there and Chicago has been trying to contend the entire time. Since 2011 here's some of the ufda players that have played at least 100 games, many are everyday types:

Jordie Benn
Bollig
Stanton
Diaz
Johnson
DeKeyser
Dillon
Garbutt
Krug
Read
Scrivens
JT Brown
Arcobello
Brunner
Glendening
Conacher
Irwin
Roussel
Flynn
Sustr
Fontaine
Raffl
Bartley
Zuccarello

That's not counting other recents like Bobrovsky, Holden, Desjardins, Tanev, Bozak, Niemi, etc. There are also the lot of backup goalies not listed and a bunch of players soon to hit the list.

There's more out there in UFDA help than late 2nds for a team contending. Many are cheaper against the daily cap number for several years and also require less time to develop. Then, if bad, it's easier to discard them than a Fournier or Beach for example. Picks aren't always a gain as many imply because time often works against the ones that have their ceiling drop after signing their ELC.

I didn't present a Petry vs. Timmo argument for the reasons you cited, which I agree with. The point was that when a player of comparable value to Petry becomes available this tdl, the Hawks don't have the pick to flip for him because they were liberally wasted on Rundblad/Timmo.

I understand what your saying. My point is that a 2nd is a very replaceable and inexpensive asset. Since picks can be traded many years out easily and because picks are flipped easily, I don't see how it restricts Bowman. GMs don't value 2nds that high or we would see at least half the league keep their's each draft. Burke didn't have a 2nd a few years ago and he needed it for his BIG move, he was even able to get his back quickly (CHI got Saad with that swap btw) for example.

That's missing the point. They can still sign udfa's while getting better value for the departing 2nd's.

My point is that cringing at these trades because some better value could be attained is no reason to change how they do business. Developed, cost controlled players, are seldom available for picks alone so gms shouldn't pass on them if they're looking to win in the short or intermediate term. If prospect slots are slotted, or about to be slotted, the value of picks to a "buyer" to a franchise is and should be reduced considerably. If they're getting a deadline rental for picks, the likelihood of "winning" the trade is extremely rare. Even in the Timmo disappointment ended okay and they haven't been limited in what they could acquire this year.

When and if the lack of picks holds them back, I'll revisit this.
They still have 8 picks for June in the meantime.

We agree on most of the details around this stuff it appears, and I may very well eat crow about Bowman too easily moving picks if things don't go as I think they'll play out. Either way, I enjoyed the exchange. Last thoughts on the topic are yours.

 

[hawksrule]

The only thing I'd add is that one can't look at the absolute numbers to gauge 2nd rounders vs. udfa's, since the number of 2nd's is finite, and the number of udfa's, while not infinite, are much greater (Idk the exact number, but I feel like the Hawks sign a half dozen). Good talking to you too, happy new year.

 

[Blue Liner]

Amazes me how many people on Twitter are so intrigued by Rundblad still. Baffles me.

The grass is not always greener, folks.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

What the hell are they intrigued by exactly?

He cant skate , He cant play D , He is soft , etc

 

[BK]

The are intrigued by his high draft slot and his offensive potential. The intrigue will be there for awhile.

 

[Blue Liner]

Just a lot of people thinking he's worth taking a shot at compared to what else is available. Low risk kind of a thing. Good luck.

 

[Blue Liner]

Rundblad will be teammates with Auston Matthews in Switzerland, it appears.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Best of luck to him in Switzerland.

 

[Blue Liner]

It's not the NHL but I could think of worse places and ways to make a living.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Absolutely love that we wont suffer thru Stanley making same mistake he did with Bickell

Now hopefully David can get Bryan to follow him to the Alps

 

[CallMeShaft]

Wanted Rundblad to stay in the system (Rockford). BWC wont be having any epic meltdowns over a player that's in another continent.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

He'll do very well in that league. Assuming his contract has been terminated?

 

[JaegerDice]

He'll do very well in that league. Assuming his contract has been terminated?

The wording is that he's 'on loan' to the Euro league... so... don't know?

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

If he's on loan I'm assuming we're stuck with the 100k cap penalty?