Music: Run the Jewels 3

[kmad]

Dancing around the questions once more.

You're arguing against a bunch of points I'm not trying to make, and getting upset that I'm not arguing back...

 

[Morozov]

You're arguing against a bunch of points I'm not trying to make, and getting upset that I'm not arguing back...

I'm not arguing against those points, I'm making them. You said you'd like to hear the argument for EL P not being the best, then when you get those arguments you bury your head in the sand and want nothing to do with them

Have wasted enough time on you, it's quite clear you have no interest in any idea but that.

 

[Stylizer1]

Once again, popularity is but one element that has been discussed, yet it seems the one you are entirely fixated on, not me.

But again, at least it is my belief, that yes popularity is part of the equation because it's literally their job to produce music that sells.

Once again however, centering this discussion around popularity (which is not my approach at all, it is you two who have zeroed in on that entirely) creates a myth that Premier is simply a product of popularity which is complete nonsense. This isn't a guy who was just selected by record companies and pushed to the moon, this is a guy who spawned from the underground. I don't think "popularity" is even an accurate word to be using, but more "respect" and again that's from both within the industry and outside it as reflected by countless testimonies from people within hip hop and the long list of hall of fame level artists who want to work with him.

When talking about "popularity" within the context of Premier's work, it's deeper than simply "sales" regardless. We're talking about work he produced that is hailed as pinnacles of the genre. Something like his work with Nas, that's regularly heralded as some of the greatest pieces of hip hop that have ever been created. That spawns popularity, it spawns respect. His popularity is a product of his work and the respect it has garnered, this isn't "popularity" in the it's played on pop radio and everybody you know is singing it. I think if you had a better understanding of Premier and his career then that's a point you'd understand better.

Ultimately, Premier's credentials were dismissed as the only thing he has achieved over EL P is "being popular" which is rubbish.

Sounds like you are speaking to a child.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Once again, popularity is but one element that has been discussed, yet it seems the one you are entirely fixated on, not me.

But again, at least it is my belief, that yes popularity is part of the equation because it's literally their job to produce music that sells.

Once again however, centering this discussion around popularity (which is not my approach at all, it is you two who have zeroed in on that entirely) creates a myth that Premier is simply a product of popularity which is complete nonsense. This isn't a guy who was just selected by record companies and pushed to the moon, this is a guy who spawned from the underground. I don't think "popularity" is even an accurate word to be using, but more "respect" and again that's from both within the industry and outside it as reflected by countless testimonies from people within hip hop and the long list of hall of fame level artists who want to work with him.

When talking about "popularity" within the context of Premier's work, it's deeper than simply "sales" regardless. We're talking about work he produced that is hailed as pinnacles of the genre. Something like his work with Nas, that's regularly heralded as some of the greatest pieces of hip hop that have ever been created. That spawns popularity, it spawns respect. His popularity is a product of his work and the respect it has garnered, this isn't "popularity" in the it's played on pop radio and everybody you know is singing it. I think if you had a better understanding of Premier and his career then that's a point you'd understand better.

Ultimately, Premier's credentials were dismissed as the only thing he has achieved over EL P is "being popular" which is rubbish.

You haven't mentioned one aspect of his production that is remarkable and distinguishes him from his competition, which is literally the only thing that matters - the production itself.

Repeating "popularity" and "respect" ad nauseam doesn't tell me or anyone else anything, and it's not an argument.

What is it about his production that you admire, and makes you feel his popularity and respect are well-earned? Like, I'm a potential fan waiting here for you to tell me what's special about a favourite artist of yours, and you're saying that he's good because he's respected and popular.

Pretend you want to get into funk music, so you ask me what makes James Brown a great artist worth listening to, and I said he's good because he's respected and popular. Would you know anything more about his music now than you did before you asked me? Do you want to listen to him more now than you did before?

I think if you had a better understanding of Premier and his career then that's a point you'd understand better.

No kidding...I've been pretty open about that. How about giving me a hand?

 

[Morozov]

You haven't mentioned one aspect of his production that is remarkable and distinguishes him from his competition, which is literally the only thing that matters - the production itself.

Repeating "popularity" and "respect" ad nauseam doesn't tell me or anyone else anything, and it's not an argument.

What is it about his production that you admire, and makes you feel his popularity and respect are well-earned? Like, I'm a potential fan waiting here for you to tell me what's special about a favourite artist of yours, and you're saying that he's good because he's respected and popular.

Pretend you want to get into funk music, so you ask me what makes James Brown a great artist worth listening to, and I said he's good because he's respected and popular. Would you know anything more about his music now than you did before you asked me? Do you want to listen to him more now than you did before?



No kidding...I've been pretty open about that. How about giving me a hand?

If I wanted to get into funk music and you told me he created the sound of funk for multiple generations, produced some of the most acclaimed funk songs of all time and was a pioneer who inspired multiple generations of funk artists then I'd go listen to him. I'm not trying to sell you on listening to him, I couldn't care less if you listen to him or not. Listen to the best hip hop producer ever or don't, absolutely no skin off my nose. If you know nothing of the subject and I tell you he's the king of the scratch loop, it isn't going to mean anything to you is it? You don't sell someone new to something on the intricacies of it.

How much hand do you want? you're on the internet, search best of Premier and go from there. I've alluded to his work with Nas, there's your starting point.

 

[KapG]

this is still going on?

Premier is a legend

 

[Stylizer1]

The fact is without run the jewels El-p would be a footnote in hip hop history in DJ Premier's Book. What El is doing now is really great but he isn't transforming the genre.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If I wanted to get into funk music and you told me he created the sound of funk for multiple generations, produced some of the most acclaimed funk songs of all time and was a pioneer who inspired multiple generations of funk artists then I'd go listen to him. I'm not trying to sell you on listening to him, I couldn't care less if you listen to him or not. Listen to the best hip hop producer ever or don't, absolutely no skin off my nose. If you know nothing of the subject and I tell you he's the king of the scratch loop, it isn't going to mean anything to you is it? You don't sell someone new to something on the intricacies of it.

How much hand do you want? you're on the internet, search best of Premier and go from there. I've alluded to his work with Nas, there's your starting point.

If it's somebody who's curious about it, sure. This is a message board, and a thread that's turned into a discussion about rap production. What better place?

With JB, I'd tell you that he started the fundamental shift in dance music to putting the beat on the one (ONE - two - three - four), brought screaming, prominent bass, and polyrhythms into popular American music, and had the tightest band in the world.

Why don't you tell me about the scratch loop, and give me an example? Then anyone who likes can add a counterpoint about what El-P does well. That seems like a lot more productive conversation than bringing out the Respect-O-Meter as some sort of bogus trump card.

 

[Morozov]

I have no interest in guiding you in some sort of hip hop history lesson. If it interests you then you've been given a starting point to go from. You came in saying you don't care who is better, if you have a genuine interest in the subject then go start acting on it. As it stands you show no real interest in the subject or eagerness to go start listening, you simply seem to just enjoy being part of an argument even though you have nothing to contribute to the subject.

You don't start with the intricacies you start by listening. I'm more sold on my explanation of JB than yours in terms of what would make me interested in hearing more.

Again I couldn't care less if you listen to Premo or not. You can either go listen to the greatest producer in hip hop history, or you can not. It really doesn't bother me at all. If you aren't a hip hop fan however then you aren't going to appreciate his impact on the genre.

The fact is without run the jewels El-p would be a footnote in hip hop history in DJ Premier's Book. What El is doing now is really great but he isn't transforming the genre.

Facts.

 

[Mikeaveli]

The fact is without run the jewels El-p would be a footnote in hip hop history in DJ Premier's Book. What El is doing now is really great but he isn't transforming the genre.

What he's doing now is really great but it's nothing compared to his earlier work. This is my opinion which I'm sure many will disagree with but The Cold Vein and El's first two solo records are better and more interesting than anything Preemo has put out.

Legacy, influence and popularity mean nothing in this conversation imo. Albums like Count Bass D's Dwight Spitz and Edan's Beauty and the Beat lack all three of those things yet they still feature some of the best production of the 2000s.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I have no interest in guiding you in some sort of hip hop history lesson. If it interests you then you've been given a starting point to go from. You came in saying you don't care who is better, if you have a genuine interest in the subject then go start acting on it. As it stands you show no real interest in the subject or eagerness to go start listening, you simply seem to just enjoy being part of an argument even though you have nothing to contribute to the subject.

Again I couldn't care less if you listen to Premo or not. You can either go listen to the greatest producer in hip hop history, or you can not. It really doesn't bother me at all. If you aren't a hip hop fan however then you aren't going to appreciate his impact on the genre.

This is about valid arguments. None have been made yet, and it doesn't seem as though they will despite there being every opportunity.

I said I don't care who is better because I'm impartial, and waiting for someone to make a legitimate point (a tall order for some reason) instead of simply basing their entire argument on the opinions of others, which is all a reputation is.

You don't start with the intricacies you start by listening. I'm more sold on my explanation of JB than yours in terms of what would make me interested in hearing more.

We have very different ideas about how much reputation is worth. Maybe you think the most respected artists are always the best, but that sure hasn't been my experience.

But if it's good enough for you to say "Premier is better than El-P because a lot of people think he's better", so be it.

Legacy, influence and popularity mean nothing in this conversation imo. Albums like Count Bass D's Dwight Spitz and Edan's Beauty and the Beat lack all three of those things yet they still feature some of the best production of the 2000s.

A-****ing-men.

 

[CycloneLaunch]

The fact is without run the jewels El-p would be a footnote in hip hop history in DJ Premier's Book. What El is doing now is really great but he isn't transforming the genre.

He just doesn't have the catalogue of work to be considered among the best in my opinion. He's definitely one of the most talented producers working today.. but the best in history..?!

 

[Morozov]

This is about valid arguments. None have been made yet, and it doesn't seem as though they will despite there being every opportunity.

I said I don't care who is better because I'm impartial, and waiting for someone to make a legitimate point (a tall order for some reason) instead of simply basing their entire argument on the opinions of others, which is all a reputation is.

We have very different ideas about how much reputation is worth. Maybe you think the most respected artists are always the best, but that sure hasn't been my experience.

But if it's good enough for you to say "Premier is better than El-P because a lot of people think he's better", so be it.



A-****ing-men.

You, who has no vested interest in the subject or even experience with the subject, thinks no relevant arguments have been made yet, oh no lol.

Again you try to break the arguments down to just popularity, boring. If it was simply popularity then Dre would be the man. Dre is still great though.

Why, with your supposed newfound interest in the subject have you not gone and started listening to anything? You wanted to be put in the right direction, you have been. The reason you haven't is you're full of it and just like arguing but you have nothing to contribute so you're feigning interest.

You do realise that the idea that Premier is the best producer is not an unpopular opinion and in fact is a very popularly held belief right? To say El P is better than Premier is very much against the status quo, the burden of proof on that argument certainly isn't on Premier lol.

This is the guy who has gotten the best out of guys like Nas, Royce, Jay, Mos Def. It's no coincidence that there best stuff is over Premier beats, the way Primo intertwines and understands them and helps tell the story with them is untouchable. There is no NY State of Mind from El P there is no genre defining historical music from him. There's really nothing of significance, he's good, very good, but nothing the puts him to that next level. Primo doesn't just make a great beat he enhances the talent he works with through it, he's helped create superstars around him.

It isn't coincidence that he's worked with Nas, Jay, KRS, Biggie, Mos Def, Royce, MOP, Big L, Royce. You think they worked with him because he's "popular" lol?

 

[Trap Jesus]

I'm a bit surprised Run the Jewels has blown up so much to appeal to both the critics and the masses. Don't get me wrong, they're all good albums, but it just feels more like "par for the course". I think El-P's solo-work elevated him to a top 5 hip-hop artist for me. The RTJ stuff, while still solid, isn't doing the same to uphold that for me.

As far as production goes, again I'd go back to "par for the course". El-P's first two albums may have the best production I've ever heard in hip-hop. The beats are varied, intricate and complex, but are still accessible and fun to listen to. He's definitely found his "sound" for beatmaking, going back to Cancer 4 Cure, but I feel it's not nearly as strong as what he did on his first two albums.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You, who has no vested interest in the subject or even experience with the subject, thinks no relevant arguments have been made yet, oh no lol.

Allegiances and experience aren't prerequisites to good arguments.

But FYI, I am interested in production. I haven't pursued much in terms of rap production because none of the big names really captured my imagination, like Bomb Squad, Dr.Dre etc. The idea's been better than the execution for the most part IMO. I listened to the RTJ albums and while El-P knows his way around the board, they left me a little cold too. Seems like more of a technical "bag of tricks" he's looking to show off at any given moment.

Kanye's production on his last few albums impressed me (although exactly what/how much he contributes is up for debate). H.A.M. (Lex Luger) made me download some trap albums to see what they're about, and I DLed a DAW. Getting familiar with how it all works.

Why, with your supposed newfound interest in the subject have you not gone and started listening to anything? You wanted to be put in the right direction, you have been. The reason you haven't is you're full of it and just like arguing but you have nothing to contribute so you're feigning interest.

I have. But again, that has nothing to do with a valid argument.

This is the guy who has gotten the best out of guys like Nas, Royce, Jay, Mos Def. It's no coincidence that there best stuff is over Premier beats, the way Primo intertwines and understands them and helps tell the story with them is untouchable. There is no NY State of Mind from El P there is no genre defining historical music from him. There's really nothing of significance, he's good, very good, but nothing the puts him to that next level. Primo doesn't just make a great beat he enhances the talent he works with through it, he's helped create superstars around him.

Alright, tailoring production to bring out the best in a vocalist and enhance their story is at least a legit argument.

 

[Morozov]

Allegiances and experience aren't prerequisites to good arguments.

But FYI, I am interested in production. I haven't pursued much in terms of rap production because none of the big names really captured my imagination, like Bomb Squad, Dr.Dre etc. The idea's been better than the execution for the most part IMO. I listened to the RTJ albums and while El-P knows his way around the board, they left me a little cold too. Seems like more of a technical "bag of tricks" he's looking to show off at any given moment.

Kanye's production on his last few albums impressed me (although exactly what/how much he contributes is up for debate). H.A.M. (Lex Luger) made me download some trap albums to see what they're about, and I DLed a DAW. Getting familiar with how it all works.



I have. But again, that has nothing to do with a valid argument.



Alright, tailoring production to bring out the best in a vocalist and enhance their story is at least a legit argument.

I think an understanding of the subject is a prerequisite for a good argument. I think things like Premier's influence through the history of the genre are factors and appreciation of that requires a knowledge of the subject. However, you don't feel those should be factors that are considered, and on that point it's really going to need to be a case of agree to disagree because we'll keep beating that horse.

It would seem odd to start listening to hip hop production and not listen to Premier as part of your investigation. As I've said, you're missing out, most hip hop fans by default are a Premier fan, even if they don't realise it, because he's behind so much of the industry for 20 years. If you want to delve into hip hop production then you need to be checking out Dilla as well, Pete Rock and I feel like Q-Tip doesn't get anywhere near enough attention for his production because it all gets swooped up in Tribe as a whole. Rza is of course amazing as well but I have to assume you've listened to him.

I do agree that El P's production feels at times more of a "look what I can do" type thing and I feel at times those rapping over his beats don't mesh all that well. Now you could say that we should remove what's going on over the top of it and focus purely on the technical ability that EL P is displaying but I don't agree because I prize lyricism so highly in hip hop and if the beats aren't meshing with that then the end result is a track that isn't great. Premier's beats so often feel like it's part of the rapper themselves because he has an ability to produce beats that fit tracks and fit artists so well.

I've said earlier in the thread that I could maybe accept the argument that El P is the better "music producer", but we're talking hip hop producer specifically and nobody extracts the roots and history of the genre into music like Premier does. The "best" beat isn't necessarily the one that is most technically challenging to create, sometimes simpler is better. That said, Premier is still incredibly gifted from a technical standpoint as well. Who uses samples better than Premo and who uses such a wide and diverse amount of samples? the way he pieces together tracks through that is amazing. Using samples may not be exclusive or revolutionary, but he does it best and his scratching is awesome and is something of a lost art.

 

[Stylizer1]

I'm a bit surprised Run the Jewels has blown up so much to appeal to both the critics and the masses. Don't get me wrong, they're all good albums, but it just feels more like "par for the course". I think El-P's solo-work elevated him to a top 5 hip-hop artist for me. The RTJ stuff, while still solid, isn't doing the same to uphold that for me.

people who grew up in the 80's and 90's are buying it too. Professionals who grew up listening to rap have money to support real rap music. The majority of the stuff that comes out is marketed to kids.

As far as production goes, again I'd go back to "par for the course". El-P's first two albums may have the best production I've ever heard in hip-hop. The beats are varied, intricate and complex, but are still accessible and fun to listen to. He's definitely found his "sound" for beatmaking, going back to Cancer 4 Cure, but I feel it's not nearly as strong as what he did on his first two albums.

As a personal opinion this is fine. For me I would say there were more producers a head of him.

For me my favorite produced album is Jeru The Damaja - Sun rises in the east.

 

[Alex Jones]

FWIW I would state that Pete Rock had a bigger influence on the 90's sound and 90's hip hop than DJ Premier.

 

[Stylizer1]

FWIW I would state that Pete Rock had a bigger influence on the 90's sound and 90's hip hop than DJ Premier.

I would say Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, and DJ Premier were equals.

Diamond D, Q Tip, Eric Sermon, Prince Paul, No I.D., Da Beatminerz, Large Professor are close 2nds.

All these producers had their time to shine. El-P's is now.

 

[Alex Jones]

I would put it this way. DJ Premier built the 90's sound, Pete Rock made it beautiful.

 

[Stylizer1]

I would put it this way. DJ Premier built the 90's sound, Pete Rock made it beautiful.

Gang Starr was more street, Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth were more club.

 

[Stylizer1]

I would say El-P was heavily influenced by Premier and the Bomb Squad.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think an understanding of the subject is a prerequisite for a good argument. I think things like Premier's influence through the history of the genre are factors and appreciation of that requires a knowledge of the subject. However, you don't feel those should be factors that are considered, and on that point it's really going to need to be a case of agree to disagree because we'll keep beating that horse.

It would seem odd to start listening to hip hop production and not listen to Premier as part of your investigation. As I've said, you're missing out, most hip hop fans by default are a Premier fan, even if they don't realise it, because he's behind so much of the industry for 20 years. If you want to delve into hip hop production then you need to be checking out Dilla as well, Pete Rock and I feel like Q-Tip doesn't get anywhere near enough attention for his production because it all gets swooped up in Tribe as a whole. Rza is of course amazing as well but I have to assume you've listened to him.

I do agree that El P's production feels at times more of a "look what I can do" type thing and I feel at times those rapping over his beats don't mesh all that well. Now you could say that we should remove what's going on over the top of it and focus purely on the technical ability that EL P is displaying but I don't agree because I prize lyricism so highly in hip hop and if the beats aren't meshing with that then the end result is a track that isn't great. Premier's beats so often feel like it's part of the rapper themselves because he has an ability to produce beats that fit tracks and fit artists so well.

I've said earlier in the thread that I could maybe accept the argument that El P is the better "music producer", but we're talking hip hop producer specifically and nobody extracts the roots and history of the genre into music like Premier does. The "best" beat isn't necessarily the one that is most technically challenging to create, sometimes simpler is better. That said, Premier is still incredibly gifted from a technical standpoint as well. Who uses samples better than Premo and who uses such a wide and diverse amount of samples? the way he pieces together tracks through that is amazing. Using samples may not be exclusive or revolutionary, but he does it best and his scratching is awesome and is something of a lost art.

Thanks man, I was sure we could come to an understanding. I appreciate the info and I'll be sure to check out Premier with your impressions in mind.