Music: Run the Jewels 3

[Mikeaveli]

I would probably agree that Kanye doesn't have a project that's up with EL-P's best. I think the Cold Vein is the best work by EL-P, and there are very few projects out there that can match it.

The reason that I think Kanye is the best producer of all time is because he is so versatile. When Kanye first came into the game he singlehandedly revived the gospel/soul sound with his production for Jay, Talib and himself on College Dropout. In many ways Kanye created the modern soul sound, he is a HOF level producer just for that.

What makes him the greatest to me is the way that he continually builds and creates new sounds, most producers master one sound and never really move past it. Almost every Kanye album tells a story not only lyrically, but in terms of Ye's sonic evolution.

College Dropout was Kanye establishing his credentials as a 90's style gospel/soul producer.

Late Registration was about Kanye taking this soul sound and going as ornate and layered as it could possibly go, adding in sounds such as classical and R&B.

Graduation was about Kanye leaving his traditional soul sound and going to stadium rock and electronica.

808 was about Kanye abandoning the stadium rock and just going pure electronica.

MBDTF is Kanye taking all of these influences and mixing them together. Watch the Throne is him doing this again, except with a bit more grandiosity.

Yeezus is Kanye abandoning big and going as trap-minimalist as possible.

The Life of Pablo is Kanye giving a trap/minimalist interpretation of his older work. It's all of his previous sounds, but put into the strange blender of modern production.

Very few producers, in fact none that I can think of are so experimental and so ambitious with their sound. Furthermore, not only is Kanye west always changing his sound, every single one of his albums sounds amazing. Kanye is one of the greats at the gospel sound, he is a great trap producer, he is a really good electronic producer, ect ect...Dude just kills every sound he goes for. I don't really think Kanye is really that good at rapping, but he is an absolute visionary in terms of production and without a doubt the best ever in my mind.

I wouldn't say Ye did anything singlehandedly, RZA had been making those kinds of beats for years and Just Blaze was doing the same thing as Ye, especially on The Blueprint. Ye was definitely the main influence on that style though.

As far as versatility goes, El has gone through many styles as well until RTJ1. From lofi boom bap to the sci-fi stuff to a more busy/industrial sound in the 2000s, then going more electronic on C4C and modernizing the T.I. - Trap Muzik sound on RAP Music, then finally arriving at the RTJ sound he's stuck with. In between that, releasing multiple instrumental records including a literal jazz fusion album. El's changes in style may not have been as drastic as going from Graduation to 808s but there's been a clear progression from the 90s to today with incredible records every step of the way imo.

A few tracks from different eras in El's career (just for those who haven't heard):
Company Flow - Last Good Sleep
Cannibal Ox - Iron Galaxy
El-P - Tuned Mass Damper
El-P - Run the Numbers
El-P - Request Denied
Killer Mike - Southern Fried
Run the Jewels - All Due Respect

The difference in my mind is that El did all these sounds justice with great records (except the jazz album lol). Outside of a few tracks on each album I don't find the production on Graduation, 808s, TLOP and particularly Yeezus to be amazing (and he also seems to be doing less and less of it himself). I applaud Ye for trying different things and I love his first two albums (along with MBDTF up to Devil in a New Dress), but it's clear that where our opinions differ is how good Ye is at doing each particular style he's went for. He's still top 5 for me though lol

MBDTF is the best produced album I've ever heard of any genre.

I used to think this but I've really soured on the part of the album after Devil in a New Dress. Every track before that is amazing to me but I can't stand Runaway and Blame Game. This wouldn't be that big of a deal if they weren't over 15 minutes of the album combined lol

I think the complete opposite. I find Kanye is just trying to stay relevant. What makes a rapper unique is there sound once that changes you might gain more fans but equally alienate the people you got you there. Kanye grew up listening to the same music I did but when he finally made it the sound was changing and he adapted. That's the problem with older rappers, some think they need to change in order to be relevant. Your not going to hear Souls of Mischief making trap music because they have their fan base. They are not as big as they were mid 90's but they stayed true to what got them popular. When 808 came out, for me, it was the end of Kanye West the rapper and emerged Kanye West the entertainer. Kanye was one of my favorite "rappers" at that time. Not now.


Adults still buy music and at some point your music has to appeal to them.

I don't really get this. If Kanye was sitting there sampling Nina Simone the same way for the 900th time don't you think he'd get bored? Exploring musical possibilities is what separates great artists from good ones imo. Who cares if it alienates his fanbase? They don't have to like his next album. I don't particularly care for any Mars Volta record after the 2nd one but I don't hold it against them and they're still one of my favourite bands. If you're saying Ye sold out then that doesn't make any sense either because a record like Yeezus isn't going to make Kanye any more money than a traditional hip-hop record.

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't really get this. If Kanye was sitting there sampling Nina Simone the same way for the 900th time don't you think he'd get bored?

Someone creative like Kanye could probably find something to sample out of the billion+ catalogue of world music.

Exploring musical possibilities is what separates great artists from good ones imo.

No problem there. The problem is that he is a rapper, not a singer. He is horrible.

Who cares if it alienates his fanbase? They don't have to like his next album.

Fans care. I supported Kanye in the past but eventually I got bored with his brand. His lyrics are trash now. He is in his own fantasy world of reality and I don't find it all that interesting. What I expect from one of my favorite MC's is a dope rap album with lyrics. You can add anything you want on the periphery but at its core it's got to be dope.

If you're saying Ye sold out then that doesn't make any sense either because a record like Yeezus isn't going to make Kanye any more money than a traditional hip-hop record.

Most musicians are sellouts though not sure how you came up with that.

Kanye became famous because of his raps. He has remained famous without the help of music. He is more about being famous than anything else.


As for RTJ3 I'm liking it more with every rotation. Though the production starts to get a little repetitive.

 

[TheCanasianfrasian]

Same for me, the more i listen to RTJ3 the more i like it. The 1st half destroys the second half imo.

My only complaint is i'm getting tired of both their flows. Its the same since RTJ1

Legend Has It is my favorite of the album right now

 

[Morozov]

Currently on my fourth listen

I'd like to hear someone argue against El-P being the best producer in hip hop history

He has nothing on Premier who has been doing it for some 25 odd years, established a platform for some of the greatest names in hip hop history, produced some of the most acclaimed tracks in hip hop history and had loads of success within his own pairing with Guru.

Premier has produced genre defining tracks like NY State of Mind, renowned tracks like ten crack commandments, mathematics, Nas is like. He's worked with legends Nas, Biggie, KRS, Jay. Mos Def, Royce, Rakim, Big L, the list goes on. Gang starr themselves are hip hop icons.

Maybe you could argue El-P an overall more talented MUSIC producer, but as a hip hop producer up against Premier his resume does not compare.

 

[Mikeaveli]

Someone creative like Kanye could probably find something to sample out of the billion+ catalogue of world music.

I'm saying that if he were to make the same music for the 20 years he's been active, a creative type like him would probably feel the need to branch out and try something different.

No problem there. The problem is that he is a rapper, not a singer. He is horrible.

Agreed that he's a terrible singer, and the autotune doesn't help imo.

Fans care. I supported Kanye in the past but eventually I got bored with his brand. His lyrics are trash now. He is in his own fantasy world of reality and I don't find it all that interesting. What I expect from one of my favorite MC's is a dope rap album with lyrics. You can add anything you want on the periphery but at its core it's got to be dope.

I agree that his lyrics have gone downhill (particularly on Yeezus and TLOP) but I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. On his early records he was definitely more relatable which makes people perceive his lyrics to be better than they actually are imo (what I call the J. Cole effect). Going from tracks like Spaceship to I Am a God is a big change but there are still some recent tracks where he shows some lyrical prowess (No More Parties in LA, Real Friends, 30 Hours), he's had plenty of terrible verses in the past that are comparable to his new stuff (Drunk & Hot Girls, Breathe In Breathe Out) along with some of his best verses being ghostwritten (Jesus Walks verse 2). Overall I think he's overrated as a lyricist but his lyrics haven't dropped off as much as popular opinion seems to paint them.

Most musicians are sellouts though not sure how you came up with that.

I equated changing up his musical style in order to gain a more mainstream audience to selling out. I kind of feel the opposite about Kanye in particular though, he's an artist I think stays popular despite what he does musically (outside of 808s).

Kanye became famous because of his raps. He has remained famous without the help of music. He is more about being famous than anything else.

While he's obviously obsessed with his fame, I still think he cares about his music as evidenced by the multiple updates to TLOP since its release.

He has nothing on Premier who has been doing it for some 25 odd years, established a platform for some of the greatest names in hip hop history, produced some of the most acclaimed tracks in hip hop history and had loads of success within his own pairing with Guru.

Premier has produced genre defining tracks like NY State of Mind, renowned tracks like ten crack commandments, mathematics, Nas is like. He's worked with legends Nas, Biggie, KRS, Jay. Mos Def, Royce, Rakim, Big L, the list goes on. Gang starr themselves are hip hop icons.

Maybe you could argue El-P an overall more talented MUSIC producer, but as a hip hop producer up against Premier his resume does not compare.

A lot of this argument seems to deal with the fact that Premier is more popular than El. I love a lot of Preem's projects (Sun Rises in the East, PRhyme, Moment of Truth, etc.) but I've never really seen him push himself out of his boom bap territory like El has. I'm not sure if Preem could make something like Tasmanian Pain Coaster, or Request Denied, while El has proven himself as a boom bap producer (Pigeon, Iron Galaxy, Squeegee Man Shooting, Lazerfaces' Warning). That being said Preem is also in my top 5 lmao.

 

[Stylizer1]

Same for me, the more i listen to RTJ3 the more i like it. The 1st half destroys the second half imo.

My only complaint is i'm getting tired of both their flows. Its the same since RTJ1

Legend Has It is my favorite of the album right now

It's like El used the same sample bank for this album as RTJ2. Beats are a little too similar sounding.

 

[Morozov]

A lot of this argument seems to deal with the fact that Premier is more popular than El. I love a lot of Preem's projects (Sun Rises in the East, PRhyme, Moment of Truth, etc.) but I've never really seen him push himself out of his boom bap territory like El has. I'm not sure if Preem could make something like Tasmanian Pain Coaster, or Request Denied, while El has proven himself as a boom bap producer (Pigeon, Iron Galaxy, Squeegee Man Shooting, Lazerfaces' Warning). That being said Preem is also in my top 5 lmao.

Popularity matters in the music industry though. As does the legacy left, in Premier's case over 25 years consistently producing tracks for many legends of hip hop, creating some of the most iconic tracks in history. When those names all say they want to work with him, it's pretty strong testament.

I'm not sure I really classify Premier just as boom bap, nor do I think it's fair to suggest he doesn't push himself. His style and innovation spawned countless imitations, we know his game now, but he was a pioneer early on and there's a lot of experimenting in the samples, drums cuts etc that he uses. He certainly doesn't branch out in the way El P or a Kanye does, but he's consistently produced fresh sound that people have enjoyed for a very long time, it isn't like he's just spinning the same stuff over and over.

It was asked for an argument as to El P not being the greatest, Premier's body of work and the success and respect it has earned is the argument. The legacy he will leave is much bigger. What are the definitive tracks that history remembers by El P? Because Premier has plenty of them. We've got 20+ year old Premier tracks that are played regularly and still loved today. Yes party of the reason is the artist Nas, Biggie etc but again there's reason all the big names worked with him.

I also think that when Premier gets discussed, Gang Starr gets overlooked because people often look at his work outside of Gang Starr, but Gang Starr are one of the best hip hop acts ever. His body of work just with Gang Starr is fantastic.

 

[kmad]

From what I can tell, it looks like fame is the only advantage that Premier has over El-P

 

[Morozov]

From what I can tell, it looks like fame is the only advantage that Premier has over El-P

Because "fame" is all Primo has achieved lol?

Not that fame should just be dismissed in an industry where the point is to sell records. Surprise, his awesome tracks got famous because they are good.

But it's not like Premier was a pioneer in his craft or the inspiration for numerous producers that followed him or helped thrust countless other acts into success.

It's not like he's performed with basically every legendary hip hop act.

It's not like this guy is forced fame from record companies, he's famous because he's produced the best beats in hip hop with the best artists in hip hop for a quarter of a century.

What records or tracks has El P produced that compare to Primo's resume? What mark is he going to have left on hip hop history? Because hip hop history has Premier's tracks laced all through it.

You said you want the argument that El P isn't the best, simply go through hip hop history and see how much of it has Premier behind it. He has helped sculpt what a generation of hip hop sounded like. It isn't just fame, it's performance, longevity, influence, impact, significance. Premier ticks every single box. Poll the hip hop community and ask who the best producer is, ask who the most respected is, that's the name that will resonate the most. Why do all the greats want to work over Premier's tracks? Because they know what he is capable of doing. Hell he even did a track for Christina Aguilera. Where are the big acts clamoring to work with El P?

Again this guy helped sculpt a generation of hip hop, times that are regarded as golden era of hip hop at that. You underestimate or have no idea how much he pioneered and influenced the sound of the genre. He's the scratch hook king.

From what I can tell you know jack about him. At least the other guy posting about him knows what's up.

 

[AINEC*]

Didn't see this thread. Glad it exists.

Love the album. LOVE "Panther Like a Panther" and "A Report to Shareholders". I'll be seeing them for the 3rd time in Feb, can't wait. As far as immediate impact goes though, I definitely enjoyed RTJ2 more on first listen.

 

[kmad]

Because "fame" is all Primo has achieved lol?

Not that fame should just be dismissed in an industry where the point is to sell records. Surprise, his awesome tracks got famous because they are good.

But it's not like Premier was a pioneer in his craft or the inspiration for numerous producers that followed him or helped thrust countless other acts into success.

It's not like he's performed with basically every legendary hip hop act.

It's not like this guy is forced fame from record companies, he's famous because he's produced the best beats in hip hop with the best artists in hip hop for a quarter of a century.

What records or tracks has El P produced that compare to Primo's resume? What mark is he going to have left on hip hop history? Because hip hop history has Premier's tracks laced all through it.

You said you want the argument that El P isn't the best, simply go through hip hop history and see how much of it has Premier behind it. He has helped sculpt what a generation of hip hop sounded like. It isn't just fame, it's performance, longevity, influence, impact, significance. Premier ticks every single box. Poll the hip hop community and ask who the best producer is, ask who the most respected is, that's the name that will resonate the most. Why do all the greats want to work over Premier's tracks? Because they know what he is capable of doing. Hell he even did a track for Christina Aguilera. Where are the big acts clamoring to work with El P?

Again this guy helped sculpt a generation of hip hop, times that are regarded as golden era of hip hop at that. You underestimate or have no idea how much he pioneered and influenced the sound of the genre. He's the scratch hook king.

From what I can tell you know jack about him. At least the other guy posting about him knows what's up.

In terms of mastery...

El-P is a better producer than Premier in the same way that Leo Kottke is a better guitarist than Eddie Van Halen

 

[Morozov]

In terms of mastery...

El-P is a better producer than Premier in the same way that Leo Kottke is a better guitarist than Eddie Van Halen

One has to question why if it's "better" it isn't more popular. What is "better" with regards to entertainment? something that entertains more people, or something that fits your specific idea of what the better performance of the art is.

Not that I agree that he is a better producer than Premier from either perspective.

What is the defining, legendary music he has produced?

What will people remember in 20 years? 20 year old Premier tracks still get regular play today.

What impact will he have left?

How many will say El P was their inspiration compared to Premier?

Premier dictated the sound for multiple generations of hip hop, the imprint he has made shatters what El P has achieved in his career. That's all part of the equation for who the "best" is for mine. Premier has been an integral part of hip hops identity for over 20 years. If EL P is "better", why exactly hasn't he produced for the likes of Nas, Biggie, Jay Z, KRS? why haven't they sought him out?

 

[kmad]

One has to question why if it's "better" it isn't more popular. What is "better" with regards to entertainment? something that entertains more people, or something that fits your specific idea of what the better performance of the art is.

I can't get behind an argument that puts Rae Sremmurd ahead of LCD Soundsystem

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

One has to question why if it's "better" it isn't more popular. What is "better" with regards to entertainment? something that entertains more people, or something that fits your specific idea of what the better performance of the art is.

I bet I can name a lot of ****** pop music artists who are a lot more popular than DJ Premier.

Is he better? If he is, why isn't he more popular?

 

[Morozov]

I didn't say that automatically makes it better, I said one has to question why. That also isn't simply a matter of fan popularity, but popularity within the industry e.g. why isn't El P on a long list of collaborations with the biggest names in hip hop history? why didn't they come to him? fact is the reason this point has come up is this weak argument that Premier is simply "more popular" from someone who has yet to speak with any knowledge at all about Premier's work.

Why would we be comparing pop music artists to Premier though? the debate here is greatest hip hop producer, so the point is completely irrelevant. We are talking within the hip hop producer field. Further to that, Premier produced for a huge pop artist in her time anyway when he did a song for Aguilera.

I've outlined the numerous parts of the equation that I feel matter, narrowing down to just one of those points is pretty weak.

This argument also creates an illusion that Premier is simply "popular" and isn't talented which is a complete load of ****, he is one of the most talented and innovative producers ever.

But yes, part of being in entertainment is, surprise, entertaining people.

I keep asking the same things, unsurprisingly they get no answers and you revert to just picking out one small part of my post. Says everything really. I'm looking at not only popularity, but longevity, history, impact, innovation and ability.

 

[CycloneLaunch]

I'm shocked people are coming after you in this thread Morozov, instead of the guy who suggested El-P is the best hiphop producer of all time

 

[KapG]

Premier for sure

 

[kmad]

I keep asking the same things, unsurprisingly they get no answers and you revert to just picking out one small part of my post. Says everything really. I'm looking at not only popularity, but longevity, history, impact, innovation and ability.

I'm only looking at mastery... hence "best"

 

[Morozov]

I'm only looking at mastery... hence "best"

Unsurprisingly, still yet to see you speak with any knowledge of Premier, or address anything I've said.

You act like it's some foregone conclusion that EL P is this untouchable producer and that Premier is simply "famous" which is nonsense.

You say you want to hear someone make the argument that EL P isn't the best, but bury your head in the sand about any other explanations.

I suspect you'd have a pretty hard time finding many people in agreement with you.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I didn't say that automatically makes it better, I said one has to question why. That also isn't simply a matter of fan popularity, but popularity within the industry e.g. why isn't El P on a long list of collaborations with the biggest names in hip hop history? why didn't they come to him? fact is the reason this point has come up is this weak argument that Premier is simply "more popular" from someone who has yet to speak with any knowledge at all about Premier's work.

Why would we be comparing pop music artists to Premier though? the debate here is greatest hip hop producer, so the point is completely irrelevant. We are talking within the hip hop producer field. Further to that, Premier produced for a huge pop artist in her time anyway when he did a song for Aguilera.

I've outlined the numerous parts of the equation that I feel matter, narrowing down to just one of those points is pretty weak.

This argument also creates an illusion that Premier is simply "popular" and isn't talented which is a complete load of ****, he is one of the most talented and innovative producers ever.

But yes, part of being in entertainment is, surprise, entertaining people.

I keep asking the same things, unsurprisingly they get no answers and you revert to just picking out one small part of my post. Says everything really. I'm looking at not only popularity, but longevity, history, impact, innovation and ability.

Listen, I don't have a dog in this fight. I could give a **** who's better.

My only issue is using popularity as any gauge of quality in artistic pursuits. If you use that across the board, it falls apart. You're using it as a measure in this discussion because your favourite happens to be the most popular.

Don't be that guy. It's a garbage argument.

 

[Morozov]

Listen, I don't have a dog in this fight. I could give a **** who's better.

My only issue is using popularity as any gauge of quality in artistic pursuits. If you use that across the board, it falls apart. You're using it as a measure in this discussion because your favourite happens to be the most popular.

Don't be that guy. It's a garbage argument.

Listen, once again, I've discussed that as only part of the equation.

It was suggested that the only thing Premier has over El P is popularity. The poster who has said that clearly is incapable of discussing any point but that one. Yes, popularity matters, they work in entertainment, popularity and sales is part of the profession. No it isn't everything.

It's not like Premier is the most popular producer, you'd probably have to say that Dre wins strictly in terms of "popularity".

If you don't have anything to contribute towards the actual topic being discussed, maybe the discussion would then be better without you feeling obliged to weigh in while offering nothing on the topic. What do you know of El P and Premier? what are your thoughts on that subject? otherwise you're really not offering much. Considering your thought is "you could give a **** who's better" maybe let those who care discuss.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Listen, once again, I've discussed that as only part of the equation.

It was suggested that the only thing Premier has over El P is popularity. The poster who has said that clearly is incapable of discussing any point but that one. Yes, popularity matters, they work in entertainment, popularity and sales is part of the profession. No it isn't everything.

It's not like Premier is the most popular producer, you'd probably have to say that Dre wins strictly in terms of "popularity".

If you don't have anything to contribute towards the actual topic being discussed, maybe the discussion would then be better without you feeling obliged to weigh in while offering nothing on the topic. What do you know of El P and Premier? what are your thoughts on that subject? otherwise you're really not offering much. Considering your thought is "you could give a **** who's better" maybe let those who care discuss.

I care about music. And I'm curious to learn more about hip hop production (presumably that's okay with you), so an argument based on popularity is probably the most useless and uninformative pissing contest imaginable. I know a lot of ****** popular artists, and I know a lot of incredible relatively unpopular artists, don't you?

When discussing who the better producer is, the merits of their respective productions are really the only valid talking points. You're clearly a seasoned listener, and I'd like to benefit from your actual knowledge of the topic.

 

[kmad]

Unsurprisingly, still yet to see you speak with any knowledge of Premier, or address anything I've said.

You act like it's some foregone conclusion that EL P is this untouchable producer and that Premier is simply "famous" which is nonsense.

You say you want to hear someone make the argument that EL P isn't the best, but bury your head in the sand about any other explanations.

I suspect you'd have a pretty hard time finding many people in agreement with you.

What do you want, like a pie chart?

 

[Morozov]

What do you want, like a pie chart?

Dancing around the questions once more.

 

[Morozov]

I care about music. And I'm curious to learn more about hip hop production (presumably that's okay with you), so an argument based on popularity is probably the most useless and uninformative pissing contest imaginable. I know a lot of ****** popular artists, and I know a lot of incredible relatively unpopular artists, don't you?

When discussing who the better producer is, the merits of their respective productions are really the only valid talking points. You're clearly a seasoned listener, and I'd like to benefit from your actual knowledge of the topic.

Once again, popularity is but one element that has been discussed, yet it seems the one you are entirely fixated on, not me.

But again, at least it is my belief, that yes popularity is part of the equation because it's literally their job to produce music that sells.

Once again however, centering this discussion around popularity (which is not my approach at all, it is you two who have zeroed in on that entirely) creates a myth that Premier is simply a product of popularity which is complete nonsense. This isn't a guy who was just selected by record companies and pushed to the moon, this is a guy who spawned from the underground. I don't think "popularity" is even an accurate word to be using, but more "respect" and again that's from both within the industry and outside it as reflected by countless testimonies from people within hip hop and the long list of hall of fame level artists who want to work with him.

When talking about "popularity" within the context of Premier's work, it's deeper than simply "sales" regardless. We're talking about work he produced that is hailed as pinnacles of the genre. Something like his work with Nas, that's regularly heralded as some of the greatest pieces of hip hop that have ever been created. That spawns popularity, it spawns respect. His popularity is a product of his work and the respect it has garnered, this isn't "popularity" in the it's played on pop radio and everybody you know is singing it. I think if you had a better understanding of Premier and his career then that's a point you'd understand better.

Ultimately, Premier's credentials were dismissed as the only thing he has achieved over EL P is "being popular" which is rubbish.