Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Post Free Agent Frenzy, Will JJ Show His Pimp Hand Again to Upgrade the Defense?

[FlameChampion]

I get the feeling we see a Ceci trade or one of Broberg/Holloway signed this weekend.

I feel like it’s going to drag out. JJ probably focused more on GM and Draisaitl now but we will see.

 

[oil Leaks]

4 young Oilers’ stepping up in playoff spotlight was a silver lining from the deep run

The Edmonton Oilers' season concluded less than a month ago, ending wi...

oilersnation.com

Interesting quote from Skinner

Gregor: In the past, and even this season, current Oiler players have called free agents and pitched them on Edmonton. Did you have any of the players reach out to try and convince you to come?


Skinner: Not during the day, however, I spoke to Jeff Jackson and the coach Knoblauch. And during the process, sort of before I had signed, they offered for that (talk to Oilers players) to happen. Things were moving along so fast and you’re trying to assess situations and options as they move along. So, I’m not sure that there would have been even time for me to entertain that.
But I know enough guys who have been around the league, even guys who used to play in Edmonton. There’s usually one degree of separation between almost everyone in hockey. So, actually one of my good friends is Ryan Strome and he spent some time in Edmonton and had nothing but good things to say. He knows a lot of the guys there. I think you reach out to different people you know, and you trust, and all I heard were good things and I’m really excited and happy that Edmonton gave me the opportunity. I actually played minor hockey with Zach Hyman so it will be fun to play with him again.

 

[WaitingForUser]

4 young Oilers’ stepping up in playoff spotlight was a silver lining from the deep run

The Edmonton Oilers' season concluded less than a month ago, ending wi...

oilersnation.com

Interesting quote from Skinner

Pretty shocked Strome had good things to say after how Chia just tossed him aside. I guess the fans and actual players must have made an impression because he’s one of the last guys I expected to hear positive things about the Oilers from.

 

[frag2]

We just fundamentally disagree on the level Nurse's game was at prior to the second half of this season. To me, this is prime Nurse:

2020-21	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	56	16	20	36	57	27
2021-22	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	71	9	26	35	54	18
2022-23	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	82	12	31	43	64	26

These are all seasons where he played on the Oilers number one pairing, with defensive partners that are arguably not even top four defenceman (depends how you feel about Ceci and Barrie, but Bear and Barrie might not even be in the league next year). In 22-23 those offensive numbers are nearly all even strength too.

I look at these numbers and his advanced stats, and he looks like a clear cut top pairing defenceman on just about any team. You see an average second pairing D. We won't agree on Nurse lol.

And I'm not a Nurse apologist either (at least I don't think I am). His contract sucks. He is prone to making some dumb decisions, and his pairing has been horrible at times in two consecutive playoff runs. He's not good at controlling his skates when the puck is in dangerous areas (particularly in front of the net). But he's been a really good Oiler for a number of years imo.

I'm not saying you or anyone who agrees with you is being irrational, but this conversation reminds me of conversations I have with people about Bouchard. I have multiple older dudes in my circle that just hate Bouchard, regardless of how well he's playing. He could score 100 points and these guys would still trade him for a bag of pucks, because they can't see past his mistakes and perceived laziness. I think Nurse is similarly polarizing.

At the top of their game, Nurse is definitely better than Klefbom IMO. At their worst though, Nurse is borderline scratch material. He's just at both ends of the extremes. You either get an A player or a D/F player. Klef youre hovering anywhere between C- to a B+ on any given day.

I think in Edmonton, as fans, we've been so accustomed to horrible defensemen that anyone that simply eats up minutes "equals" top pairing. That is until Bouch/Ek came along.

 

[Canovin]

At the top of their game, Nurse is definitely better than Klefbom IMO. At their worst though, Nurse is borderline scratch material. He's just the at both ends of the extremes. You either get an A player or a D/F player. Klef youre hovering anywhere between C- to a B+ on any given day.

I think in Edmonton, as fans, we've been so accustomed to horrible defensemen that anyone that simply eats up minutes "equals" top pairing. That is until Bouch/Ek came along.

A to D is not much different than B+ to C-

Everything taken into consideration, Klef is no worse than B-. He's paid correctly. Nurse was also paid correctly. There was only so much the defense could do back when Klef was on the Oilers. The forwards had no buy ins, McDavid and Drai had no form of back checking whatsoever.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I get the feeling we see a Ceci trade or one of Broberg/Holloway signed this weekend.

Im not sure we see a trade until after the wedding. Only thing I could see possibly happening before is the Leon extension being announced.

 

[guymez]

We just fundamentally disagree on the level Nurse's game was at prior to the second half of this season. To me, this is prime Nurse:

2020-21	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	56	16	20	36	57	27
2021-22	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	71	9	26	35	54	18
2022-23	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	82	12	31	43	64	26

These are all seasons where he played on the Oilers number one pairing, with defensive partners that are arguably not even top four defenceman (depends how you feel about Ceci and Barrie, but Bear and Barrie might not even be in the league next year). In 22-23 those offensive numbers are nearly all even strength too.

I look at these numbers and his advanced stats, and he looks like a clear cut top pairing defenceman on just about any team. You see an average second pairing D. We won't agree on Nurse lol.

And I'm not a Nurse apologist either (at least I don't think I am). His contract sucks. He is prone to making some dumb decisions, and his pairing has been horrible at times in two consecutive playoff runs. He's not good at controlling his skates when the puck is in dangerous areas (particularly in front of the net). But he's been a really good Oiler for a number of years imo.

I'm not saying you or anyone who agrees with you is being irrational, but this conversation reminds me of conversations I have with people about Bouchard. I have multiple older dudes in my circle that just hate Bouchard, regardless of how well he's playing. He could score 100 points and these guys would still trade him for a bag of pucks, because they can't see past his mistakes and perceived laziness. I think Nurse is similarly polarizing.

Putting up numbers with no context doesnt really prove much. A few years ago Nurse was getting all kinds of PP time and 5x5 offesnsive zone time with 2 of the best offensive players in the world.
Even some of the analytics simply do not tell the entire story.
Just watch Nurses game...you can see him make inexplicably bad decisions game after game.
These are not isolated incidents. Its who he is as a Dman.
The team was able to absorb (outscore) these incidents for the most part in the past.

 

[guymez]

For the purpose of a discussion forum, imo the Nurse cap hit should not be an issue. We are here as armchair GMs. We talk about what should be done or not done.

With Nurse, there are no options. Whatever move we could make to move him would cost more than it's worth. He's got a NMC. We might as well discuss the James Neal cap hit.

I get it though. He is the obvious overpaid player and it's hard not to pay attention to it. But imo there is productive discussion that pushes the team forward and there is unproductive discussion that hurts the team. I choose to focus on what is productive and put that energy out there.

The reason why Nurse and his contract becomes a magnified issue moving forward is because of Draisaitl and Bouchard (and then McDavid). This team is looking at almost $45M going out to 4 players and one of those players is barely worth 60-70% of his cap hit.
I agree that there doesnt appear to be an easy solution but that doesnt diminish the fact that his contract is FUGLY.

 

[Canovin]

Putting up numbers with no context doesnt really prove much. A few years ago Nurse was getting all kinds of PP time and 5x5 offesnsive zone time with 2 of the best offensive players in the world.
Even some of the analytics simply do not tell the entire story.
Just watch Nurses game...you can see him make inexplicably bad decisions game after game.
These are not isolated incidents. Its who he is as a Dman.
The team was able to absorb (outscore) these incidents for the most part in the past.

Just looking at the stats, you would think Nurse is Doughty if not better, better 5v5, more minutes, more hits, better zone entry, better +/-. If you watch them play, you see the complete opposite.
And no one in their right mind would take Nurse 1 for 1 over Doughty with everything considered.

 

[guymez]

Just looking at the stats, you would think Nurse is Doughty if not better, better 5v5, more minutes, more hits, better zone entry, better +/-. If you watch them play, you see the complete opposite.

Exactly.
Really underscores why analytics cant be used in isolation.
You have to actually watch the games to get the entire picture. It puts some flesh on the analyitcs.

 

[Arpeggio]

Putting up numbers with no context doesnt really prove much. A few years ago Nurse was getting all kinds of PP time and 5x5 offesnsive zone time with 2 of the best offensive players in the world.
Even some of the analytics simply do not tell the entire story.
Just watch Nurses game...you can see him make inexplicably bad decisions game after game.
These are not isolated incidents. Its who he is as a Dman.
The team was able to absorb (outscore) these incidents for the most part in the past.

He barely got any PP time in 22-23. His offensive zone start% was also lower than Klefbom's every year they played together save for 16-17 when it was basically the same. Over the three years I posted stats for there, his offensive zone start% is 45, 42, and 31(!). I haven't looked up everyone, but just looking up the stats for guys like Slavin, Ekblad, and a few others, that seems to be really low, especially the 22-23 number.

 

[guymez]

He barely got any PP time in 22-23. His offensive zone start% was also lower than Klefbom's every year they played together save for 16-17 when it was basically the same. Over the three years I posted stats for there, his offensive zone start% is 45, 42, and 31(!). I haven't looked up everyone, but just looking up the stats for guys like Slavin, Ekblad, and a few others, that seems to be really low, especially the 22-23 number.

Again though the numbers are only telling part of the story.
I mean quality of linemates obviously matter (so does usage) but I have been watching Nurse since he came into the NHL.
His defensive game has always had holes in it.
His D zone deficiencies/poor decision making have always been there. I think its become more illuminated lately primarliy because the team is now a contender and the importance of details in a players game is now extremely magnified.
Just watch the way a player like Ekholm thinks the game in his own end and then watch Nurse.

 

[Arpeggio]

Just looking at the stats, you would think Nurse is Doughty if not better, better 5v5, more minutes, more hits, better zone entry, better +/-. If you watch them play, you see the complete opposite.
And no one in their right mind would take Nurse 1 for 1 over Doughty with everything considered.

Wait, so the argument against Nurse is that he's better statistically in every way than Doughty, but he just isn't better because just watch him play?

 

[Canovin]

Wait, so the argument against Nurse is that he's better statistically in every way than Doughty, but he just isn't better because just watch him play?

Nurse actually beat Doughty in almost every category outside of points. I got the minutes wrong tho. Doughty plays more minutes. Just by watching the 2 play. I can firmly say almost everyone would take Doughty over Nurse. Contracts considered.

 

[Arpeggio]

Again though the numbers are only telling part of the story.
I mean quality of linemates obviously matter (so does usage) but I have been watching Nurse since he came into the NHL.
His defensive game has always had holes in it.
His D zone deficiencies have always been there. I think its become more illuminated lately primarliy because the team is now a contender and the importance of details in a players game is now extremely magnified.

Yeah, this is what I mean by just fundamentally not agreeing about a player though. I've also watched nearly every game Nurse has played in the NHL, and yes his defensive game has holes, but he was the Oilers best defenceman by a mile for many years, up until Bouchard emerged along with the acquisition of Ekholm.

I get just as frustrated with Nurse's boneheaded mistakes as you do, I just think at his best he's clearly a top pairing guy, and his best was not that long ago. If he gets back to that level, you can win with him at 9 million. You can't win with him playing like he did in the last half of this past season though.

Nurse actually beat Doughty in almost every category. I got the minutes wrong tho. Doughty plays more minutes. Just by watching the 2 play. I can firmly say almost everyone would take Doughty over Nurse

I'm not arguing that that's not true, but Nurse is a better defenceman than Doughty. Those people would be wrong.

 

[guymez]

Yeah, this is what I mean by just fundamentally not agreeing about a player though. I've also watched nearly every game Nurse has played in the NHL, and yes his defensive game has holes, but he was the Oilers best defenceman by a mile for many years, up until Bouchard emerged along with the acquisition of Ekholm.

I get just as frustrated with Nurse's boneheaded mistakes as you do, I just think at his best he's clearly a top pairing guy, and his best was not that long ago. If he gets back to that level, you can win with him at 9 million. You can't win with him playing like he did in the last half of this past season though.

The fact that Nurse was this teams best dman really speaks to how far they needed to go to become a contender.
Nurse is not a top pairing dman on a contending team and the additions of Ekholm and the rise of Bouchard has emphasized that point.
Nurse is a 2nd pairing dman on an contending team and even then he needs the 'right' D partner or his games falls apart.
I am not sure what it is that you are seeing in his game that leads you to think he is a top pairing Dman on a contending team.
This is especially true in the playoffs...when the quality of play is accelerated and the pressure is amplified Nurse just cant elevate his game. As a matter of fact (as one might expect) his deficiencies become elevated.

 

[Canovin]

Yeah, this is what I mean by just fundamentally not agreeing about a player though. I've also watched nearly every game Nurse has played in the NHL, and yes his defensive game has holes, but he was the Oilers best defenceman by a mile for many years, up until Bouchard emerged along with the acquisition of Ekholm.

I get just as frustrated with Nurse's boneheaded mistakes as you do, I just think at his best he's clearly a top pairing guy, and his best was not that long ago. If he gets back to that level, you can win with him at 9 million. You can't win with him playing like he did in the last half of this past season though.


I'm not arguing that that's not true, but Nurse is a better defenceman than Doughty. Those people would be wrong.

Doughty is the guy the Oilers would bring in to babysit Nurse

 

[Arpeggio]

The fact that Nurse was this teams best dman really speaks to how far they needed to go to become a contender.
Nurse is not a top pairing dman on a contending team and the additions of Ekholm and the rise of Bouchard has emphasized that point.
Nurse is a 2nd pairing dman on an contending team and even then he needs the 'right' D partner or his games falls apart.
I am not sure what it is that you are seeing in is game that leads you to think he is a top pairing Dman.

I guess it depends on what you consider a contending team. I think the Oilers were a contending team when they went to the final four against Colorado, and Nurse was definitely a top pairing defenceman on that team. Like I get what you're saying, but I just think you're underselling Nurse.

Also, if we really want to get into it, has Nurse ever played with a partner that you would consider even a top four defenceman? Like as much as people want to criticize Nurse for last year, if he's an average second pairing guy, then wtf is last season's Cody Ceci? Maybe my memory is failing me, but Tyson Barrie might be the best partner Nurse has ever played with? It would be interesting to see what he looks like with a legitimate top four guy.

 

[frag2]

A to D is not much different than B+ to C-

Everything taken into consideration, Klef is no worse than B-. He's paid correctly. Nurse was also paid correctly. There was only so much the defense could do back when Klef was on the Oilers. The forwards had no buy ins, McDavid and Drai had no form of back checking whatsoever.

At the end of the day, both players are pretty mediocre. They are ok mid pairing that can occasionally moonlight as top pairing.

 

[Arpeggio]

Doughty is the guy the Oilers would bring in to babysit Nurse

That isn't based on anything, you're just saying it's true because it's true.

Also, it wasn't too long ago that Kings fans were shitting all over Doughty too.

 

[Soundwave]

Klefbom's injury set the Oilers back 2-3 years. Nurse doesn't impact a game that way. Again we went from within a game of a Conference Final our first time in the playoffs with this group to not even being able to make the playoffs and I would say Klefbom's injury was the biggest reason why.

People forget too that Klefbom was only 23 in 16-17 (!).

We don't know what type of player he could have improved into because he never got a chance to be healthy after that.

 

[guymez]

I guess it depends on what you consider a contending team. I think the Oilers were a contending team when they went to the final four against Colorado, and Nurse was definitely a top pairing defenceman on that team. Like I get what you're saying, but I just think you're underselling Nurse.

Also, if we really want to get into it, has Nurse ever played with a partner that you would consider even a top four defenceman? Like as much as people want to criticize Nurse for last year, if he's an average second pairing guy, then wtf is last season's Cody Ceci? Maybe my memory is failing me, but Tyson Barrie might be the best partner Nurse has ever played with? It would be interesting to see what he looks like with a legitimate top four guy.

I have to completely disagree with you on the bolded. This was not a contending team back then. They were excellent at outscoring their mistakes and capable of doing some damage in the playoffs but ultimately when the quality of teams was distilled down to the final 8 this team was clearly not good enough.
They were better last season but even then their systems were clearly not good enough as well and that became obvious against Vegas last season.
Also a good opportunity to evaluate Nurses game. He was a clear liability against Vegas in that series.
I have never seen a dman leave critical areas in and around the net wide open while he followed players who werent even a scoring threat all over the ice.
It was embarrassing and the sheer magnitude of those inexplicably poor decisions was crippling to this team defensively. That really illustrated how Nurse reacts to a higher level of pressure and competition.

 

[Arpeggio]

Klefbom's injury set the Oilers back 2-3 years. Nurse doesn't impact a game that way. Again we went from within a game of a Conference Final our first time in the playoffs with this group to not even being able to make the playoffs and I would say Klefbom's injury was the biggest reason why.

People forget too that Klefbom was only 23 in 16-17 (!). If you put that version of Klefbom in this team two years ago, he'd be putting up great numbers right now.

Completely disagree, take Nurse off those teams from 19-20 to 22-23, and the Oilers aren't even close to competing.

 

[Canovin]

That isn't based on anything, you're just saying it's true because it's true.

Also, it wasn't too long ago that Kings fans were shitting all over Doughty too.

I don't know how you can watch 2 straight playoffs series against LA and want Nurse over Doughty. One dman shows up in the playoffs, the other folds or cost the series. We criticize Drai and McDavid as well. Fans do that all the time.

 

[Soundwave]

Completely disagree, take Nurse off those teams from 19-20 to 22-23, and the Oilers aren't even close to competing.

Nurse got to play with way better versions of McDavid and Draisaitl in his prime, Klefbom played with a 100 point version of McDavid and a 80 point version of Leon, Patrick Maroon was probably our best winger past those two.

We never got to see Klefbom really healthy past age 23, his shoulder injury basically took us from a team that was being banked on to compete for a Cup to not even in the playoffs.

If Nurse is as good as Klefbom it's also fair to ask, where was he in 17-18 and 18-19 when the team was spinning its wheels, if he was that good he should have stepped up and filled that hole.