Proposal: Rumors and Proposals Thread: Pre season edition

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iCanada

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Feb 6, 2010
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Edmonton
I don't...

The longer this sits in my head, it's not getting better for the sens. Just an awful deal.

I can't imagine spending money on a sens ticket. And I bought oil tickets through the decade of darkness.
 
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rambo97

Registered User
Jan 2, 2018
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I wouldn't worry about SJ. Even if EK walks they'll probably sign Duchene or Stone (or both) next summer and be ready to compete.

The market, weather, etc will allow them to reload quickly.
 

ohheyhemsky

Regehr DooDoo
Nov 1, 2010
27,927
11,471
DT Cowtown
I don't...

The longer this sits in my head, it's not getting better for the sens. Just an awful deal.

I can't imagine spending money on a sens ticket. And I bought oil tickets through the decade of darkness.
Don't worry, no one is spending money on them. The fans are speaking with their wallets (check out the season ticket holders sales percentage this year )- something we've never been able to do. Good for them.
 
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belair

Win it for Ben!
Apr 9, 2010
39,555
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Canada
I wouldn't worry about SJ. Even if EK walks they'll probably sign Duchene or Stone (or both) next summer and be ready to compete.

The market, weather, etc will allow them to reload quickly.
I'm sure that's the reason why they were willing to take the risk. That's an old, old team though. It'd take a lot to get back to where they are now.
 

iCanada

Registered User
Feb 6, 2010
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Edmonton
Don't worry, no one is spending money on them. The fans are speaking with their wallets (check out the season ticket holders sales percentage this year )- something we've never been able to do. Good for them.

I mean... we outright tanked and never lost an asset trade this bad.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
And they would still have Karlsson, Beardzo and the pickle guy in their top 4. That's just nasty. It's utterly nasty.

I agree its nasty. But Nashville had prime versions of Suter, Weber and a young Josi and could not make the playoffs because they had no forwards. Obviously the SJ trio is better offensively by a lot and I'd take them right now over the Nashville trio back then. , but that Nashville threesome was much better defensively as a group even with Vlasic. Plus Beardzo will be 34 next year so the window is not that long.
 

rambo97

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Jan 2, 2018
902
585
I'm sure that's the reason why they were willing to take the risk. That's an old, old team though. It'd take a lot to get back to where they are now.

They've got a good nucleus that will be appealing to other UFA's.

Vlasic-Burns on D
Couture at C
Jones at G

Kane, Hertl (who I think is going to bust out and establish himself this year) I'm not including as they are good pieces but not game changers but still pretty good nucleus. Maybe not world beaters but solid.

Honestly EK is a luxury for them. They probably needed to look at C more but I get it....why thumb their noses at a top 10 player when they become available.

I think if they let Pavelski and Thornton walk they will target Duchene. If EK walks then target Stone too and they could roll with:

Couture-Stone
Duchene-Kane

Vlasic, Burns and Jones

Still probably a playoff team
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
I think it's because he's going to be 35 and the article was stating that he's had a lot of tough miles on him and that his body is starting to betray him and Wilson and their analytics department thinks he's going to be declining very soon.

But who knows.

On a side note, selfishly I hope SJ bombs this year and EK walks. And then signs with EDM. That would be just perfect.
MY guess is that lifestyle will be the key factor for EK. San Jose is a fantastic location if you are rich.

If they lose Pavelski they would still be tight against the cap but their defense would be superb for at least a few years. But their young forwards would really have to take a step forward. Plus they would have to hope that Kane does not revert to his old ways.
 

Delicious Pancakes

Top Pocket Find
Apr 23, 2012
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Not really. Dorion made a worse trade with a better player than Bergevin and Sakic did. That should put it in perspective.

In a bubble yes. However you can't ignore circumstances. If they weren't going to deal with Eastern teams then that limits trade options which likely lowers the possible return. I'd be curious to see Karlsson's no trade list. If Melnyk has an internal mandate to trade Karlsson out West and Karlsson only has 3 Western teams he's willing to go to then you're hamstrung.

I'm not excusing the fact that they dithered away the return they could have gotten, just pointing out that I understand why they didn't get more at this point in time. I understand not trading him at the trade deadline or at the draft if there was still hope of resigning him, however prior to July 1st Dorion should have known Karlsson wasn't resigning and traded him then to a team Karlsson was actually willing to go to. Once other teams had committed dollars in free agency the teams that could make a deal happen dwindled, and Dorion lost leverage. Maybe he overplayed an assumption that once other high end names were off the market one of the suitors would be desperate enough to pony up more/better assets for Karlsson. Clearly that wasn't the case though and as summer passed it became apparent that the return for Karlsson was going to be poor relative to his talent because no other GM was desparate enough and Dorion was in a time crunch.
 

Little Fury

Registered User
Jun 21, 2006
18,137
7,442
The thing is this doesn't end at the two or three 'elite' players on your roster. It's why goalies can 'steal' games. Build a better team and you'll beat most teams with a few 'elite' players on their roster if their roster can't keep up with yours.

See, I don't buy this. The gap between any given third or fourth liner is much much smaller than that between an average player and an elite one. Those margins are where games are won and lost.

Odds are if your team is build properly, you'll likely end up with a few players who fall into that 'elite' category regardless.

Sure, which is why you shouldn't trade them away for non-elite players.

You should and it's not. When you develop your own talent--and I'm talking top to bottom, not just these 'elite' players--you have the ability to negotiate their salaries. You have the power to control your payroll and build the foundation of your roster as you see fit. This falls into my point about timing. If you choose to go the path of adding a high end player through trade, you do so when the time is right. You do so when you have the assets you can afford to spend, when you have the cap you can afford to commit and when you're convinced the rest of your roster is capable of competing.

I don't think it's as complicated as that at all. The hardest part is finding those top tier players. You basically have to either spend some time in the toilet or get really really lucky at the draft table to get them. So if you're a team that's lacking in that department and a chance comes along to get one, you simply have to try.

The idea of finding 'elite' players regardless of cost or position then figuring everything else out later is as silly as it gets. If it were true this was how GMs viewed the league, the trade market would be booming at the deadline every single year for teams hoping to push themselves over the top with these 'elite' players. And the cost for them would always be astronomical.

Well, no because, once again, teams that get the real different makers tend not to let them go. If what you said is true and elite talent matters less than overall depth, you'd see GM part with quality for quantity a helluva lot more than they do. Instead, these players get giant long term contracts.

Teams that win Stanley Cups generally learn how to win them. It's a process that often involves multiple years of failure. In those failures, the team builds its foundation. They see what it takes to win in the playoffs and they find out first hand what it takes to lose. There's no quick fix to get there.


The Crosby Pens went from 29th to narrowly losing in the SCF in just three seasons. The Blackhawks missed the playoffs in 07-08 and were champs two years later.
Vegas just went to the SCF in their first season for crying out loud.

It has nothing to do with learning (if it did, why has San Jose never won?) but a combination of the right people in the right place at the right time.
 

McDNicks17

Moderator
Jul 1, 2010
42,574
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Ontario
This was the risk they took. Their weak prospect cabinet got considerably weaker losing a quality 24y C and their top F prospect. If they don't win a Cup and he walks, it's fire sale in San Jose.

Odds are he re-signs though. The worst part for San Jose is that the alleviated $4m from their cap by grabbing Boedker in a previous deal.

I wouldn't be too worried about their prospect pool.

San Jose is probably the best team in the league at finding European free agents.

They had Heed, Karlsson, Donskoi and Sorensen on the roster last year and they just signed Antti Suomela(24 year old who led the Finnish league in scoring last season) and a few other promising guys.
 

Aerrol

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Sep 18, 2014
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Don't worry, no one is spending money on them. The fans are speaking with their wallets (check out the season ticket holders sales percentage this year )- something we've never been able to do. Good for them.

You have the numbers on hand? How bad has it gotten?
 

joestevens29

Registered User
Apr 30, 2009
54,013
17,142
In a bubble yes. However you can't ignore circumstances. If they weren't going to deal with Eastern teams then that limits trade options which likely lowers the possible return. I'd be curious to see Karlsson's no trade list. If Melnyk has an internal mandate to trade Karlsson out West and Karlsson only has 3 Western teams he's willing to go to then you're hamstrung.

I'm not excusing the fact that they dithered away the return they could have gotten, just pointing out that I understand why they didn't get more at this point in time. I understand not trading him at the trade deadline or at the draft if there was still hope of resigning him, however prior to July 1st Dorion should have known Karlsson wasn't resigning and traded him then to a team Karlsson was actually willing to go to. Once other teams had committed dollars in free agency the teams that could make a deal happen dwindled, and Dorion lost leverage. Maybe he overplayed an assumption that once other high end names were off the market one of the suitors would be desperate enough to pony up more/better assets for Karlsson. Clearly that wasn't the case though and as summer passed it became apparent that the return for Karlsson was going to be poor relative to his talent because no other GM was desparate enough and Dorion was in a time crunch.
Part of the problem is Dorion let those circumstances grow. I agree he had a lot of shit to deal with, but he's the one that waited this long to make moves.

After the Hoffman situation you could see that there has a been a shit show going on for a long time. Dorion did little to fix it and essentially waiting until it was too late to maximize returns.

The only thing worse would've been not dealing Karlsson only to watch him get hurt and not be dealt at the deadline.

Seems quite evident from past players and wives that the locker room was in shambles. Should've dealt Hoffman at x-mas and tried to salvage your captain. Instead the team took the "there is nothing wrong approach" also know as "lets bury our head's in the snow approach".
 

ChaoticOrange

Registered User
Jun 29, 2008
51,515
31,337
Edmonton
Pageau is apparently out 4-6 months, longer if he needs surgery. Achilles injury.

Duchene walks in a year. Stone walks in a year.

A stark reminder that it could be worse, those Sens.
 
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Aceboogie

Registered User
Aug 25, 2012
32,649
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#1 D are never traded:sarcasm:

In all realness, our current team was likely were not in the running for Karlsson, either because we were on his no trade list, or he wouldnt resign here. This is why it is so important to build a competent contender, because if dont, top players will never agree to come to a bad team (in a less desirable city). The way the NHL is, the rich (well built teams) get richer because top players just go there. There is dispropriate advantages to acquiring and holding on to good players. Then with only a few well built teams in the league, they are able to offer steep discounts for those players because there is a lack of options these players are willing to go

Id bet dollars to donuts that had we built a good team around McDavid, Karlsson would have been willing, or atleast alot more willing than now, to accept a trade here
 
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Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
81,069
70,224
Pageau is apparently out 4-6 months, longer if he needs surgery. Achilles injury.

Duchene walks in a year. Stone walks in a year.

A stark reminder that it could be worse, those Sens.

Sekera + Strome for Duchene + Pageau
 
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