Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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I'm sorry, first of all, I can't believe we're talking about Tim Thomas with only 24 names on the board of "best goaltenders in hockey history" - I mean, that's just disappointing. But I just don't get what this post has to do with anything relating to this project...what other goalies are getting credit for major junior and college success? That's not serious, right?

And being the best goalie in the 4th or 5th best league in the world, super...we didn't even dip this low for Holecek...

This is a great instance where we're creating a narrative to back numbers...and it's weird because the history unfolded in front of us...but look at how hard we have to reach to reverse justify these statistics! College all-star teams, a mid-tier professional program that has import rules, the AHL (not the pinnacle AHL like it was just before expansion, certainly, the "you aren't good enough to play in the NHL" AHL)...look at the strain to try to make it work for him...why? is there a big collusion, secret club thing that I'm not aware of?

Journeyman goalie finds defensive team - posts great numbers. Loses job. Posts great numbers. Quits. ...named one of the best goalies in history. Really? That didn't take much...my goodness...can we talk about something relevant now, please...I'm sorry to be so ornery here, but it's a complete waste of time to be discussing him...at least right now...we have to decide the 25th best goalie in hockey history now and we're sifting through NCAA All-Star teams from 20 years ago...what are we doing here?

Like I said in an edit, that wasn't meant as a justification of his placement at this point on the list, nor do I necessarily think that Thomas belongs anywhere close to the top 25. That was just a little bit of an award-based backing to the assertion that Thomas had performed well, or even elite at all levels he played.

Now, to be fair to that story, it wasn't simply that he posted great numbers; he won Vezinas and Smythes. It seems unfair to him to discount the fact that he won trophies simply because he didn't have longevity. Now, to question the role the team had, the system had, and the competition had in regards to his deservedness of the Vezinas and the relative strength of the Vezinas is completely acceptable, but to disregard them entirely is silly. So, too, is simply tossing aside his stellar 2011 cup run.

If you want to judge Thomas, at least try to be objective. I wonder, not targeted at you specifically, if that'll be one of the difficulties we have in judging modern era goaltenders (to be fair, this didn't seem to be a problem with Brodeur). With Thomas, it's a lot easier to judge using bias because he is so current, he's fresh in our memories, and he's relatively controversial off of the ice. Looking back at older goaltenders, we tend to judge based on stats and awards, as well as newpaper accounts, and with these metrics, it's hard to discount Thomas on that measure.
 
Don't get me wrong; I have him eighth going into this round based upon my Top-60. I just don't like that Mike Farkas claims that he shouldn't have come up to vote this soon, or that "we'd look like a bunch of smacked-ass suckers if we give Thomas a spot on this thing...suckers. Fools."

Understood there. Even if I'm not too big on Thomas it'd be a shame to leave the discussion on him one-sided.

It's just I had all 11 up for voting ahead of both him and Lundqvist on my top 60. Honestly Thomas and Cheevers felt like two easy leave off the ballot candidates for me with extras this round.
 
Understood there. Even if I'm not too big on Thomas it'd be a shame to leave the discussion on him one-sided.

It's just I had all 11 up for voting ahead of both him and Lundqvist on my top 60. Honestly Thomas and Cheevers felt like two easy leave off the ballot candidates for me with extras this round.

Those two will almost definitely be left off my ballot this round.

Anyway, with 13 candidates, I think this thing works best if we discuss goalies who have a chance at making the list at this point. I'm not sure if that much is gained if the argument about Thomas is about whether he should finish 8th or off the ballot.

If someone wants to make a case for Thomas to go higher than that, then it's worth discussing. That person won't be me. :)
 
I don't see a ton of difference when talking about a league MVP.

Either way, he came back the following season and led the AHL in save% (not official because his recall to Boston left him a couple GP short) and then when called up he posted a .917 in the NHL (in 2006, when that was a good number). Clearly operating at a high level regardless of league and team.
They were both double MVPS (I don't know who votes on what in those leagues), but in Finland Niklas Backstrom won the award for best Goalie, made the All-Star team, and his club won the Finnish League. Lundqvist won the award for best Goalie, made the All-Star team, and his club on the league championship.

Two very good seasons, but one seems better is all. I'd imagine if we really wanted to study which league had the better players considering the lockout migrants then it'd be a plus for Lundqvist as well.

Who was better in 2006 isn't a question though. Lundqvist never had to play a game in the AHL and finished 4th in Save %. I think Lundqvist is clearly the better goalie until 2008 looking at European and NHL play.

I don't either, so I don't expect to be talking about him much more this round. But I thought it was necessary to rebut the strongly worded statements that he didn't belong on this list at all.
Fair enough there.
 
And being the best goalie in the 4th or 5th best league in the world, super...

* Best PLAYER in the league, in a lockout season where guys like Vokoun, Backstrom and Roloson were in the other net. Surely that's comparable to an average, non-award-winning season in the NHL -- the compilation of which seems to be the biggest hole is his résumé.


This is a great instance where we're creating a narrative to back numbers...and it's weird because the history unfolded in front of us...

It didn't unfold in front of most of us. Few fans had any idea who Thomas was until the lockout. He could have gone undefeated with a 1.000% in Europe and nobody would have noticed or cared. It's jumping the gun a bit to write the guy off as inadequate because he was obscure.

In terms of creating a narrative, the history is what it is. The O'Connell era Bruins were cycling through high-priced goalies du jour (think Dafoe, Carey, Hackett, Potvin) and had no interest in offering a spot to Thomas, the unorthodox guy who showed up to battle in camp every year. So, instead of slumming around in their system he went wherever he could find starts until such time as a spot opened for him in Boston (management's hand was forced by injuries, otherwise he'd likely never have had a shot). And he proceeded to secure that spot in the face of strong backup competition from 2006 forward. That's what happened. No revision or reaching.
 
I'd really like to discuss Rogie Vachon in this round, if we could. Is Vachon a poor man's Worters? Good goalie on a bad team type of deal? Doesn't look as if Vachon is recognized quite as much as Worters was (thus Worters' placement already), but he seems to get some MVP love here and again...1974 he was one of just two goalies to get a vote (Espo), 1975 he was a pretty close 2nd to Bobby Clarke, 1976 he was named the starter of the 1976 Canada Cup roster (one of the best teams ever assembled I do believe) and was named Team MVP and the best goalie of the tournament, 1977 (back to the Hart stuff) behind Lafleur and Clarke and the only goalie known to have gotten a vote, in 1978 (though a single vote), he was one of just four goalies to get one (Edwards, Espo, Dryden).

That's a pretty strong peak relative to this crew I think...

If anything, Vachon has lots of similarities with Rayner, if you completely disconsider the fact he started with the Habs (and the ocurence of WWII). You just added another that I forgot for Rayner, though; not many goalies ended up being pitted against three Top-15 netminder in their primes (and being arguably consistently better than one of them in Regular Season, except for an off-year).
 
On a sidenote, I ranked 55th a player that is available for voting this round...

TDDM, 70ies : Is there, at this point, an available goalie that WASN'T RANKED by one of the voters?
 
On a sidenote, I ranked 55th a player that is available for voting this round...

I also ranked a player who is available 55th. And no, it wasn't Thomas. Actually, I could check to see if it was the same guy, but that wouldn't be fair, would it? :naughty:

TDDM, 70ies : Is there, at this point, an available goalie that WASN'T RANKED by one of the voters?

Cheevers was on 25 lists. Barrasso, Giacomin, Holmes, Joseph, Rayner, and Vanbiesbrouck were on 26 lists. Every other goalie available so far has been on all 27 lists.
 
Back to Tim Thomas...
I think his availability this round actually makes sense. There is lots of things to really like about him, but also lots of doubts as well. In the grand scheme of things, his NHL performance until 07-08 is mainly irrelevant, and the fact he sorta loss his job to a rookie goalie who might even not make the Top-500 when everything is said and done, ALL THE WHILE POSTING A .915 SVP (which should be considered, at worst, pretty decent everywhere), raises doubts about his .93x SV% seasons, or his others seasons actually.

Thomas probably won't make my Top-8. Going by my initial list, he's 11th out of 13th in the current group, which ranges from 21 to 38 (with one goalie ranked 55th). So it tends to say that he sorta belongs there. But if somebody makes a convincing case, he MIGHT end up in my Top-8. Unlikely (there's a pretty huge natural cut-off at 33 in my list), but certainly possible, and a very likely Top-8 NEXT round.
 
The only one of those that I think is meaningful in an All-Time context is being voted the best player in the FEL during the lockout when there were NHL-calibre players in the FEL. The minor league stuff is meaningless when we're talking players of this calibre, IMO - it might be different if it were the AHL in the Original 6 era, but it isn't.

Being voted best goalie in the FEL in 1998 COULD be meaningful if it was over someone who was NHL-calibre, but I highly doubt it was.

Oh I completely agree. Once again, I wasn't trying to use those to show anything more than that Thomas wasn't just some random goalie who lucked into a good situation and managed to put up good numbers. Sorry for this long block of text about someone like Thomas, who probably isn't (an probably shouldn't) be considered in this round. It just came up, and I kinda dove in.

As best as I can tell, in 1997-98, Thomas beat out goalies like Fredrik Norrena, Jussi Markkanen, Vesa Toskala, and Mika Noronen. But he did it playing in only 18 games, which I don't know if that is a boost or a pitfall. The next year, the trophy was won by Miikka Kiprusoff, who didn't play in 1997-98, over players like those above, but also including Niklas Backstrom. Thomas only played in 14 games in 1998-99.

In the 1999-2000 season, Thomas played in the IHL with a remarkable number of goaltenders with NHL experience, including Marty Turco, Nikolai Khabibulin, Robert Esche, Manny Legace, Evgeny Nabokov, Chris Mason, and Tomas Vokoun. However, he didn't do well in this league, whatsoever.

In the 2000-01 season, he played in the SEL, which didn't have an award for goaltenders until the 2001-02 season. However, he did have the best SV% that year beating out a mostly unspectacular list of goalies including Pat Jablonski, Reinhard Divis, Mikael Tellqvist, and a young Henrik Lundqvist who only played in 4 games. He was 4th in GAA.

He returned to SM-Liiga in the 2001-02 season. The Urpo Ylonen trophy was won that year by Kari Lehtonen, over goaltenders such as Thomas, Bruce Racine, Anteri Niittymaki, and Norrena. I cannot find voting records to see where Thomas placed in either the 1998-99 or 2001-02 seasons.

From 2002 until 2006, with the exception of 04-05, he played in the AHL until he was called up for good in the 2005-06 season. In 2002-03 he was pretty unremarkable compared to goalies like Rick DiPietro, Mathieu Garon, Craig Anderson, Cristobal Huet, Ryan Miller, Ilya Bryzgalov, and numerous others. In 2003-04, he improved drastically, posting the 4th best GAA at 1.84 and 2nd best SV%, ahead of goalies like Miller, Niittymaki, Lehtonen, Anderson, and numerous others. In 2005-06, playing only 26 games, he had the best SV% of goalies with more than 20 games (Halak and Fleury played in the low double digits), and tied for the best GAA. He outplayed goalies such as Mike Smith, Jimmy Howard, Josh Harding, Al Montoya, Corey Crawford, and Pekka Rinne.

The year he won the MVP of SM-Liiga, 2004-05, he outplayed goaltenders such as Letohnen, Tomas Vokoun, Pekka Rinne, Dwayne Roloson, Karri Ramo, Andrew Raycroft, Toskala, Backstrom, and others that had NHL experience. Interestingly, Backstrom won the Urpo Ylonen trophy that year, his second in a row, after Lehtonen had taken two in a row. He also beat out skaters such as Jussi Jokinen, Patrik Stefan, Glen Metropolit, Jason Williams, Valterri Flippula, Marek Zidlicky, Brian Campbell, Sami Lepisto, Jarkko Ruutu, and Mike Ribeiro (who didn't play a full season), amongst others.

This is probably way too much information about Tim Thomas pre-NHL, but once I got started, I couldn't stop until I finished it.
 
I also ranked a player who is available 55th. And no, it wasn't Thomas. Actually, I could check to see if it was the same guy, but that wouldn't be fair, would it? :naughty:



Cheevers was on 25 lists. Barrasso, Giacomin, Holmes, Joseph, Rayner, and Vanbiesbrouck were on 26 lists. Every other goalie available so far has been on all 27 lists.

All I'll say on that matter is that it wasn't Rayner. I said I had him too low, but not THAT low :)
 
Out of respect to the process, I'll just acknowledge the reply and move on. No reason to talk about a goalie that isn't worth talking about right now.

Back to relevance...

I think Fuhr is a lock for #1 this round, easy. And am still surprised he got beat out by Billy Smith last time...

Lumley and Giacomin seem to take a good deal of flak, especially Giacomin.

This is from a book called "Hockey Stars of 1972"

Ed Giacomin - One of the more fashionable pastimes for hockey journalists was predicting when New York Rangers' goalie Ed Giacomin would crack under the strain of playing nearly every game of the long NHL season - without a face mask.

During the 1967 playoffs Giacomin folded before the big Montreal Canadiens' guns in four straight games. A year later he blew a long shot from the stick of a fourth-rate Chicago forward and the Rangers capitulated to the Black Hawks after leading the Cup series two games to none. The Italian-Canadian from Sudbury, Ontario was hardly more effective in 1969 and 1970 when the Rangers were dispatched from the first Cup round by Montreal and Boston.

No change was expected during the 1970-71 season until New York's general manager-coach Emile Francis came up with a new plan. Instead of having Giacomin play 70 games, as he did in each of the two previous years, Francis limited Eddie to 45 contests and permitted his other goaltender, Gilles Villemure, to play the reminder. In addition, Giacomin wore a mask.

The plan was successful. Giacomin's goals against average was a personal low of 2.15 while Villemure's was a commendable 2.29. Their total - 2.26 - enabled the Ranger pair to capture the Vezina Trophy, awarded to the team with the best goaltending record. Besides, Giacomin was named tot he First All-Star Team beating out Jacques Plante of Toronto, 157-111.

Some Giacomin-watchers still wondered whether he would execute his annual fold act in the playoffs. It certainly appeared that he would in the opening game of the first round against Toronto. But, gradually, Ed pulled himself together and, lo and behold, the Rangers actually made it past the first playoff round for the first time in 21 years.

Confronted by Chicago in the Cup semi-finals, Giacomin this time displayed rare courage. In the opening game at Chicago Stadium on April 18, 1970, Black Hawk ace Bobby Hull accidently slashed the back of Giacomin's left hand. It was a nasty cut, deep and long enough to compel Francis to insert Villemure as a replacement.

"I couldn't believe how bad the injury was when he came to the bench," said teammate Brad Park. "The wound was a about a quarter-inch wide and the first bandage simply turned into a bulge of blood."

But Giacomin insisted on returning. "I had no intention of coming out," the goalie explained. "Things were going too good with the team and when they're going that way you like to stay in the game."

He did and the Rangers defeated Chicago, 2-1, in sudden-death overtime. Giacomin continued to play gallantly throughout the series in which the Black Hawks finally triumphed late in the seventh and final game. For Eddie, though, it was a personal victory because he proved that the playoff jinx no longer afflicted him. He was a new man in more ways than one.

[a bunch of stuff about him wearing a mask]

If the mask hindered Eddie's vision when he perspired it certainly didn't limit his wandering from the goal crease. More than any other NHL goaltender, Giacomin has mastered the art of fielding a puck and passing it along to a teammate, thereby launching a play.

"Having him do that," said Park, "is like having a third defenseman on the ice. It's amazing how he manipulates the puck with the big goalie's stick."

To some observers it's simply amazing that Giacomin is in the NHL. He languished in the American Hockey League for five years before Francis visited Providence, Rhode Island in the Spring of 1965 to obtain Giacomin. Francis wasn't the only one; Giacomin was also being sought by an emissary from the Detroit Red Wings. The pair met head-on in a Providence hotel.

"What the hell are you doing here?" blurted the Detroit man.

Francis, then the rookie Ranger manager, stared him up and down disparagingly and replied: "You know why I'm here; for the same you are; to get Eddie Giacomin."

The Wings, Rangers and Maple Leafs had their eyes on the young goalie who was owned by Lou Pieri, president of the Providence Reds. When the Red Wing scout asked Francis how he was making out, the Ranger boss said he had an appointment with Pieri the following week.

"I made sure I was up at six the next morning," said Francis, "and got to Pieri's office bright and early. I bought along plenty of 8 by 10 glossy photos of the Rangers because I knew I wasn't getting Giacomin easy.

After the gentleman shook hands and sat down Francis extracted several photos from his dossier. The first was one of Jim Mikol, a checking forward of limited potential.

"Giacomin was a good-looking guy who appealed to the young people in Providence," said Francis. "I knew I had to offer one very handsome guy; at least for starters."

Then, he peeled off photos of goalie Marcel Paille (Providence has a large French-speaking population), a defenseman Aldo Guidolin and Sandy McGregor. Pieri gathered them up and told Francis he had himself a deal.

Francis knew he now had himself a goalie, but what he didn't realize at the time was that it was the most important deal of his life. A few months later Jacques Plante, then the Rangers' number one goalie, quit on him and everything hinged on Giacomin's coming through.

For a time it appeared that Giacomin would blow it. He had never played a single game in the NHL and he was understandably unsure about the Bobby Hulls and Gordie Howes. His first two seasons were traumatic. He was rapped by newsmen and pelted with garbage in his own home rink. One night Francis reassured him "Next time they throw garbage, pick it up and throw it right back."

Giacomin hung tough and soon began displaying the brand of goaltending Francis had expected of him when he visited Providence. He made the All-Star Team in each of his last five NHL season and, each time, the New Yorkers gained a playoff berth.

"Getting Eddie from Providence," said Francis, "was the best move I've made."

No doubt Giacomin's teammates and fans will second the motion.
 
I'm sorry, first of all, I can't believe we're talking about Tim Thomas with only 24 names on the board of "best goaltenders in hockey history" - I mean, that's just disappointing. But I just don't get what this post has to do with anything relating to this project...what other goalies are getting credit for major junior and college success? That's not serious, right?And being the best goalie in the 4th or 5th best league in the world, super...we didn't even dip this low for Holecek...

This is a great instance where we're creating a narrative to back numbers...and it's weird because the history unfolded in front of us...but look at how hard we have to reach to reverse justify these statistics! College all-star teams, a mid-tier professional program that has import rules, the AHL (not the pinnacle AHL like it was just before expansion, certainly, the "you aren't good enough to play in the NHL" AHL)...look at the strain to try to make it work for him...why? is there a big collusion, secret club thing that I'm not aware of?

Journeyman goalie finds defensive team - posts great numbers. Loses job. Posts great numbers. Quits. ...named one of the best goalies in history. Really? That didn't take much...my goodness...can we talk about something relevant now, please...I'm sorry to be so ornery here, but it's a complete waste of time to be discussing him...at least right now...we have to decide the 25th best goalie in hockey history now and we're sifting through NCAA All-Star teams from 20 years ago...what are we doing here?

What other goalies get critisized for having "just average" Vezina seasons?

How great are those numbers?

GAA regular season - 2.47 25th all-time
GAA playoffs - 2.07 13th all-time

SP regular season - .921 2nd all-time
SP playoffs - .933 1st all-time

Waste of time to even be talking about him with only 24 on the board?
 
Out of respect to the process, I'll just acknowledge the reply and move on. No reason to talk about a goalie that isn't worth talking about right now.

Back to relevance...

I think Fuhr is a lock for #1 this round, easy. And am still surprised he got beat out by Billy Smith last time...

Lumley and Giacomin seem to take a good deal of flak, especially Giacomin.

This is from a book called "Hockey Stars of 1972"

Giacomin here is commended for his playoff play after playing only 45 games during the regular season, during which his backup put up similar numbers. Isn't that partially the knock against Thomas? Not to turn back to Thomas, and I understand that Giacomin has other things going for him, but at what point is that knock on Thomas applicable to others? Giacomin only played in 12 NHL seasons for more than 10 games, and of those, he played in 50+ games in only 5. I understand that he needs credit for his AHL seasons, but it seems that he was deemed a playoff choker until he was platooned.
 
What other goalies get critisized for having "just average" Vezina seasons?

How great are those numbers?

GAA regular season - 2.47 25th all-time
GAA playoffs - 2.07 13th all-time

SP regular season - .921 2nd all-time
SP playoffs - .933 1st all-time

Waste of time to even be talking about him with only 24 on the board?

To be fair, he's always been a platoon goalie, he has relatively few NHL seasons, and rankings don't take into effect when they began and different eras. But I agree with you.
 
What other goalies get critisized for having "just average" Vezina seasons?

How great are those numbers?

GAA regular season - 2.47 25th all-time
GAA playoffs - 2.07 13th all-time

SP regular season - .921 2nd all-time
SP playoffs - .933 1st all-time

Waste of time to even be talking about him with only 24 on the board?

His playoff save percentage record sort of loses its luster when you see who else is up high

1. Tim Thomas .9331
2. Olaf Kolzig .9273
3. Patrick Lalime .9264
4. Jonathan Quick .9253
5. John Sebatien Giguere .9253
6. Dominik Hasek .9251

Kolzig and Lalime aren't exactly thought of as all-time great playoff goalies. And it's kind of a tell as to the effect of era when Jonathan Quick is also there.

Edit: Nothing against Thomas' 2011 playoffs; he was spectacular.
 
Giacomin here is commended for his playoff play after playing only 45 games during the regular season, during which his backup put up similar numbers. Isn't that partially the knock against Thomas? Not to turn back to Thomas, and I understand that Giacomin has other things going for him, but at what point is that knock on Thomas applicable to others? Giacomin only played in 12 NHL seasons for more than 10 games, and of those, he played in 50+ games in only 5. I understand that he needs credit for his AHL seasons, but it seems that he was deemed a playoff choker until he was platooned.

Yeah, that's basically why I don't think as highly of Giacomin as I do of several of the more recent goalies here. He only played 5 seasons as an NHL starter and bombed in the playoffs. After 5 seasons, the Rangers bring in Villemure for Giacomin to platoon with, and Villemure actually looked better than Giacomin some of the time. Giacomin does start the majority of the playoff games in the platoon, and plays decently (much better than when he was the lone starter), but again, I'm not sure if he distinguished himself much from Villemure.

I never thought of comparing Giacomin to Thomas, but I think it's an interesting comparison and I can actually see a case for Thomas.
 
Understood there. Even if I'm not too big on Thomas it'd be a shame to leave the discussion on him one-sided.

It's just I had all 11 up for voting ahead of both him and Lundqvist on my top 60. Honestly Thomas and Cheevers felt like two easy leave off the ballot candidates for me with extras this round.

I was at a game in 1966 where Cheevers and Giacomin were the first (two) stars of a 2-2 game between the defensively challenged Bruins & Rangers. Also got to see Bobby Orr for the first time.

That said, from what I saw throughout their careers Cheevers was certainly on the same level as Giacomin.
 
PCHA Yearly Scoring and Holmes's GAA
Year|Scoring|GAA Rank; Margins|All-Star Teams
1917|114.75|1/4; +32 over Murray|1st: Fowler / 2nd: Holmes
1919|60.67|1/3; +9 over Lehman|1st : Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1920|63.67|1/3; +10 over Lehman|1st : Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1921|78.33|1/3; +10 over Lehman|1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1922|67.67|1/3; -2 behind Lehman (2 more GP than Lehman)|1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1923|103.33|3/3; -45 behind Lehman (5 more GP than Lehman)|1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1924|83|1/3; +19 over Holmes|1st: Lehman
Note that Seattle was unaffected by the final year of the PCHA's crazy scoring. Holmes couldn't get the First Team placement allowing 32 less goals than Portland's Tom Murray. Hec Fowler earned the nod on a brutal Spokane squad that allowed 63 more goals than Holmes and Seattle.

WCHL
Year|GAA Rank; Margins|All-Star Teams
1925|1/7; +12 over Hainsworth|1st: Holmes
1926|1/6; +11 over Hainsworth|1st: Hainsworth

NHA
Year|GAA Rank; Margins|Record
1913|5/6; split time lowering GA|9-11
1914|T1/6; tied with Vezina, +8 over Moran|13-7
1915|3/6; -19 behind Benedict, -3 behind Vezina|8-12

NHL
Year|GAA Rank|Record
1918|2/3|9-7
1927|8/10|11-26-4
1928|6/10|19-19-6
The NHL used more goalies than before so the margins get too messy to post in this section.
 
His playoff save percentage record sort of loses its luster when you see who else is up high

1. Tim Thomas .9331
2. Olaf Kolzig .9273
3. Patrick Lalime .9264
4. Jonathan Quick .9253
5. John Sebatien Giguere .9253
6. Dominik Hasek .9251

Kolzig and Lalime aren't exactly thought of as all-time great playoff goalies. And it's kind of a tell as to the effect of era when Jonathan Quick is also there.

Edit: Nothing against Thomas' 2011 playoffs; he was spectacular.

I guess if there is no luster in having the very best playoff SP ever, we needn't use it for anyone, good or bad. Though I might add that 2 of these nobodies also won Conn Smythe trophies, something some all-time greats never accomplished.
 
His playoff save percentage record sort of loses its luster when you see who else is up high

1. Tim Thomas .9331
2. Olaf Kolzig .9273
3. Patrick Lalime .9264
4. Jonathan Quick .9253
5. John Sebatien Giguere .9253
6. Dominik Hasek .9251

Kolzig and Lalime aren't exactly thought of as all-time great playoff goalies. And it's kind of a tell as to the effect of era when Jonathan Quick is also there.

Edit: Nothing against Thomas' 2011 playoffs; he was spectacular.

I will add that Thomas was 24.3 goals better than average in the 2011 playoffs (and 37 goals better than a replacement-level goaltender):

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/thomast.html

Those are numbers that would be solid #1 over the course of a full regular season; over a 25-game playoffs, it's phenomenal.

He was 2.9 standard deviations above average during the playoffs - to compare, Patrick Roy's 1993 was at +3.1, Giguere's 2003 was at +2.9.
 
I really like Curtis Joseph'S candidature at this point.

Not MUCH recognition, but the guy was basically a Top-10 goalie, on an EXTREMELY consistent basis, year in year out.

And that's worth a lot in a 21 to 30 teams league.

One does not lead the NHL in career losses without being a damn good goalie :)
 
Giacomin here is commended for his playoff play after playing only 45 games during the regular season, during which his backup put up similar numbers. Isn't that partially the knock against Thomas? Not to turn back to Thomas, and I understand that Giacomin has other things going for him, but at what point is that knock on Thomas applicable to others? Giacomin only played in 12 NHL seasons for more than 10 games, and of those, he played in 50+ games in only 5. I understand that he needs credit for his AHL seasons, but it seems that he was deemed a playoff choker until he was platooned.

Wait... WHAT?!
 
There's little to suggest that Connell was ever better than the 3rd best goalie in hockey. Lehman, as the best goalie for over a decade in the PCHA, would have been anywhere from the best to the 3rd best continuously over that time.

And yet he was virtually statistically inseparable at the top of the NHL stats lists after leaving the OCHL from Benedict, Vezina, and Thompson who have already garnered significant voting support. Perspective. Does Lehman really get a bigger boost from having so many PCHA 1st team nods over perennial 2nd place guy Holmes? What makes that argument even worse, imo, is that Holmes appeared at the top of the leaderboards with the same guys in the NHL before switching over to the PCHA for a while.

I personally put Holmes above Lehman, but for those who believe the reverse, did Lehman honestly prove himself more in direct comparison to contemporary Holmes than both Holmes and Connell did against Vezina, Benedict, Hainsworth and Thompson? Remembering, of course, that Holmes was also the guy statistically wedged in between Vezina and Benedict in the NHA, before doing the PCHA/NHL back-and-forth. It looks like Holmes and Connell are two guys that compare the most favourably to contemporaries Vezina and Benedict, and then Hainsworth and Thompson, and yet Lehman is supposed to slide in between those two groups of established and legendary NHLers? I'm still having a problem reconciling that on the strength of a PCHA all-star voting record and a label "Hainsworth of the West".
 
I guess if there is no luster in having the very best playoff SP ever, we needn't use it for anyone, good or bad. Though I might add that 2 of these nobodies also won Conn Smythe trophies, something some all-time greats never accomplished.

Part of it is that I'm sore that Thomas ruined what was once a great hockey trivia question:

Q) Which goalie has the highest career save percentage in the playoffs?
A) Olaf Kolzig

Nobody ever got that one. :D

(And nobody ever ever would guess that Lalime was 2nd at that time)

But seriously, I think career playoff save percentage isn't a very useful metric. I think the biggest issue, is that as an averaging stat, it favors players with short playoff portfolios. And having a short playoff portfolio is a bad, not a good thing (especially if you're Patrick Lalime and your play itself is a big reason your portfolio is so short).

But as a single season playoff run, Thompson's 2011 was something else.
 
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