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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Basically, the next 6 goalies are separated by less than 20 points total. So either we add 6 (giving us 15 total candidates), add nobody (giving us 9 total candidates), or arbitrarily cut off guys who are separated by an insignificant amount.

Kind of messy...

(edit: there are natural breaks after this point, so there won't ever be a need to go beyond 15)
Click to expand...

Hmm...tough call. My instinct says, keep us at 9 candidates.
 
Mike Farkas said:
Hmm...tough call. My instinct says, keep us at 9 candidates.
Click to expand...

Add no additional candidates for next round? That's showing a lot of faith in the aggregate list that was put together before discussion.

Edit: I'm saying this as someone who thinks that the more options we get as we go farther down the list, the better
 
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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Add no additional candidates for next round? That's showing a lot of faith in the aggregate list that was put together before discussion.

Edit: I'm saying this as someone who thinks that the more options we get as we go farther down the list, the better
Click to expand...

I also meant to type more in that response, but got distracted. Yeah, it's a two-way street. I see the options at the bottom of this list and think "geez, the guys below this must really suck" but in actuality, we might find "keepers" there...Dave Kerr perhaps?

I guess you're right...more options are better. And we'll just have to up the ante discussion-wise accordingly.
 
I'd really go for the natural groupings, since omissions are (... I think) likely in the first stage.

One omission (let's say, at 37th) could mean "next round", so...

One thing, though : In this thread, 75% of the posts are about two goaltenders, and 90% of the posts are about three goaltenders (... I'm sortof responsible for that, I know!) -- and for one of the those players, it was whether he was worthy of a Top-8 rather than worthy of the Top-4 !
 
Oh, last one : Congrats all.

The thread started REALLY UGLY but the last 8 pages or so were really civil.
 
MXD said:
Oh, last one : Congrats all.

The thread started REALLY UGLY but the last 8 pages or so were really civil.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it was "really ugly" - I don't think it was ripe with personal attacks or anything. I think it's just a matter of passionate fans debating a close issue. No harm, no foul in my eyes. But that's just me.

Nothing wrong with some good, strong debate.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Basically, the next 6 goalies are separated by less than 20 points total. So either we add 6 (giving us 15 total candidates), add nobody (giving us 9 total candidates), or arbitrarily cut off guys who are separated by an insignificant amount.

Kind of messy...

(edit: there are natural breaks after this point, so there won't ever be a need to go beyond 15)
Click to expand...

I vote for 15
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Add no additional candidates for next round? That's showing a lot of faith in the aggregate list that was put together before discussion.

Edit: I'm saying this as someone who thinks that the more options we get as we go farther down the list, the better
Click to expand...

I agree. Let's get some more candidates up, and see what happens.
 
So, I took some time to try to really figure this out today and I'm not sure where I'm at any more...I think I looked at it too long and it fried my brain...

I think my top-4 will contain: Fuhr and Rayner
My unranked will definitely contain: Thomas and Cheevers

The rest are in a "middle group" I think that I'm trying to group or cluster in some way...

I think I'm ok with Vachon, Holmes and Connell being towards the bottom of that middle cluster.

I'm having trouble getting a good read on Gump and Lumley still. And I'm having trouble with Vanbiesbrouck, Barrasso and CuJo.

I didn't see Barrasso with Buffalo, I saw him with Pittsburgh and he was pretty up and down after the Cup wins. So, that's what I remember from him. And I'm a Pens fan. I just feel that most of his resume is in a time that I'm not really aware of and it's distorting things for me...

Beezer I didn't see before Florida really, so I can't speak that well to his early days either.

Just at random I texted a fellow coach (high school level, not NHL or anything), who is a Rangers fan, but at least saw these guys full careers...I said, "Rank these goalies as you remember them" and he says, "Barrasso, CuJo, Beezer" when I thought I was ready to commit to the opposite. So that kind of threw me off...

Here's what the league's GM's thought of them...

John Vanbiesbrouck - 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th* [17 seasons]
Curtis Joseph - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th*, 11th* [16 seasons]
Tom Barrasso - 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th*, 9th* [15 seasons]

* - one vote
[season = 25+ games]

On that metric alone, it's a pretty decisive win for Beezer. Being a goalie in the top-third of the league (at least) for nearly half of a long career, transitioning between eras, ending up on an expansion team, having playoff success with some pretty iffy teams. Could Beezer have done more for the teams that he was on in the postseason? I'm not really sure he could have, any thoughts there? Both times Beezer went on a Cinderella run, it was ended by Patrick Roy too ('86 and '96).

I think Beezer beats Barrasso for international resume. Beezer was better statistically on the '83 World Junior team, he played on '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams while Barrasso didn't (well, one game in '87, he wasn't chosen in '91). Barrasso got the '84 CC, but Beezer was still working his way up through the minors at that time, so he wasn't a realistic choice - it's a pro for Barrasso but not a negative to Vanbiesbrouck.

CuJo was very good on some poor teams, but I'm a little put off that the GMs didn't support him more... early on he was on defensive teams (St. Louis under Brian Sutter and Bob Berry) and the GMs seemed to punish him a bit for that. Example: 91-92, he was 2nd in save pct. but didn't receive any Vezina votes. Strangely, the media didn't even really get too sucked in on that one. The media seemed prepared to vote him 6th, but some idiot gave Beaupre a single first place vote, so Joseph finished t-7th, but it was still a fringe candidation.

Even in '93, when Joseph led the league in save pct. and finished 4th in GAA, he was a distant 3rd in Vezina voting (Belfour and Barrasso). The next year, another top-6 finish in save pct., he put up the same basic numbers for three straight years and again the GMs yawned...a 4th place finish that pitted him closer to Arturs Irbe and Mike Richter as opposed to Dominik Hasek and Patrick Roy.

That seems to be a statement on the Blues style of play at the time. One line team (Hull and friends) that played defensively all the rest of the time.

When Joseph moves to the more offensive-minded Oilers (under Ron Low) he still doesn't get a ton of love and his modest numbers in the regular season probably weren't enough to sway the voters to give him any handouts over Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour, etc.

When he moved to the offensive-minded Leafs under Pat Quinn, he still wasn't lighting the statistical world on fire (3-year stretch saw no top-10 GAA finishes and only one top-10 save pct. finish (7th in 2000 - which was a goal away from being not top-10 either)) but he did garner a lot of Vezina support for his efforts behind the Leafs defense that featured Bryan Berard, Alexander Karpotsev and later Bryan McCabe as major minute-getters. Joseph got a close 2nd (more 1st place votes than Hasek), a 3rd and an 8th place finish in that stretch.

Obviously, the media didn't pay him as much mind on All-Star teams because he didn't have the stats to back it up: going 4th, 5th and N/A in the same stretch from the fickle media.

Any last minute thoughts on any of the disjointed blathering above?

EDIT: I forgot to mention. I've done some research on Giacomin, I don't think he can get too far away from Barrasso to be honest...below him if you value playoff performance, naturally...
 
Funny, when I look at the exact same Vezina finishes, I think Barrasso has a pretty decisive win. 4-2 in top 2 finishes. 5-2 in top 3 finishes. 5-3 in top 5 finishes. But then I always care more about prime. Shows how two people can interpret the same data in two different ways.

Barrasso does have a slight advantage over Beezer in "Vezina shares" (basically cumulative votes over his career), with Cujo a step behind them: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=56621829&postcount=23

Though I suppose one could make an argument that the difference in Vezina shares is due almost entirely to the increasing competition into the mid-90s
 
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Mike Farkas said:
So, I took some time to try to really figure this out today and I'm not sure where I'm at any more...I think I looked at it too long and it fried my brain...

I think my top-4 will contain: Fuhr and Rayner
My unranked will definitely contain: Thomas and Cheevers

The rest are in a "middle group" I think that I'm trying to group or cluster in some way...

I think I'm ok with Vachon, Holmes and Connell being towards the bottom of that middle cluster.

I'm having trouble getting a good read on Gump and Lumley still. And I'm having trouble with Vanbiesbrouck, Barrasso and CuJo.

I didn't see Barrasso with Buffalo, I saw him with Pittsburgh and he was pretty up and down after the Cup wins. So, that's what I remember from him. And I'm a Pens fan. I just feel that most of his resume is in a time that I'm not really aware of and it's distorting things for me...

Beezer I didn't see before Florida really, so I can't speak that well to his early days either.

Just at random I texted a fellow coach (high school level, not NHL or anything), who is a Rangers fan, but at least saw these guys full careers...I said, "Rank these goalies as you remember them" and he says, "Barrasso, CuJo, Beezer" when I thought I was ready to commit to the opposite. So that kind of threw me off...

Here's what the league's GM's thought of them...

John Vanbiesbrouck - 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th* [17 seasons]
Curtis Joseph - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th*, 11th* [16 seasons]
Tom Barrasso - 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th*, 9th* [15 seasons]

* - one vote
[season = 25+ games]

On that metric alone, it's a pretty decisive win for Beezer. Being a goalie in the top-third of the league (at least) for nearly half of a long career, transitioning between eras, ending up on an expansion team, having playoff success with some pretty iffy teams. Could Beezer have done more for the teams that he was on in the postseason? I'm not really sure he could have, any thoughts there? Both times Beezer went on a Cinderella run, it was ended by Patrick Roy too ('86 and '96).

I think Beezer beats Barrasso for international resume. Beezer was better statistically on the '83 World Junior team, he played on '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams while Barrasso didn't (well, one game in '87, he wasn't chosen in '91). Barrasso got the '84 CC, but Beezer was still working his way up through the minors at that time, so he wasn't a realistic choice - it's a pro for Barrasso but not a negative to Vanbiesbrouck.

CuJo was very good on some poor teams, but I'm a little put off that the GMs didn't support him more... early on he was on defensive teams (St. Louis under Brian Sutter and Bob Berry) and the GMs seemed to punish him a bit for that. Example: 91-92, he was 2nd in save pct. but didn't receive any Vezina votes. Strangely, the media didn't even really get too sucked in on that one. The media seemed prepared to vote him 6th, but some idiot gave Beaupre a single first place vote, so Joseph finished t-7th, but it was still a fringe candidation.

Even in '93, when Joseph led the league in save pct. and finished 4th in GAA, he was a distant 3rd in Vezina voting (Belfour and Barrasso). The next year, another top-6 finish in save pct., he put up the same basic numbers for three straight years and again the GMs yawned...a 4th place finish that pitted him closer to Arturs Irbe and Mike Richter as opposed to Dominik Hasek and Patrick Roy.

That seems to be a statement on the Blues style of play at the time. One line team (Hull and friends) that played defensively all the rest of the time.

When Joseph moves to the more offensive-minded Oilers (under Ron Low) he still doesn't get a ton of love and his modest numbers in the regular season probably weren't enough to sway the voters to give him any handouts over Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour, etc.

When he moved to the offensive-minded Leafs under Pat Quinn, he still wasn't lighting the statistical world on fire (3-year stretch saw no top-10 GAA finishes and only one top-10 save pct. finish (7th in 2000 - which was a goal away from being not top-10 either)) but he did garner a lot of Vezina support for his efforts behind the Leafs defense that featured Bryan Berard, Alexander Karpotsev and later Bryan McCabe as major minute-getters. Joseph got a close 2nd (more 1st place votes than Hasek), a 3rd and an 8th place finish in that stretch.

Obviously, the media didn't pay him as much mind on All-Star teams because he didn't have the stats to back it up: going 4th, 5th and N/A in the same stretch from the fickle media.

Any last minute thoughts on any of the disjointed blathering above?

EDIT: I forgot to mention. I've done some research on Giacomin, I don't think he can get too far away from Barrasso to be honest...below him if you value playoff performance, naturally...
Click to expand...

For what its worth, if I had one game to win I'd take Cujo over Barrasso or Beezer.

My original list had Barrasso ahead of Cujo, but I think I put too much stock into the awards aspect. I really wish that Joseph had a chance to play on a top tier team somewhere to see what he could have accomplished.

Cool Cujo stats:

91-92 season, played only 60 games but led the league in saves (.910 SP, 2nd in league).

Though never getting to the finals, Joseph is 5th all-time in playoff saves.
 
Dennis Bonvie said:
For what its worth, if I had one game to win I'd take Cujo over Barrasso or Beezer.

My original list had Barrasso ahead of Cujo, but I think I put too much stock into the awards aspect. I really wish that Joseph had a chance to play on a top tier team somewhere to see what he could have accomplished.

Cool Cujo stats:

91-92 season, played only 60 games but led the league in saves (.910 SP, 2nd in league).

Though never getting to the finals, Joseph is 5th all-time in playoff saves.
Click to expand...

I'd take Cujo over those two in a heartbeat as well.

His highs were at least as good: incredible in 93, as an Oiler maybe better than they ever were in defeating Dallas & Colorado, and very strong with the Leafs on a mediocre defensive team in the dead puck era.

Meanwhile his lows were much more moderate in comparison.

It is really too bad that the only time he was on a true contender they forgot how to score.
 
BraveCanadian said:
I'd take Cujo over those two in a heartbeat as well.
Click to expand...

So would a lot of people, which is interesting. I say interesting, because dealing with past eras has resulting in leaning on awards and all-star voting because stats "can't be trusted". Well, Vanbiesbrouck not only has better stats than Barrasso while playing on worse teams, he still compares statistically well to Cujo - who didn't even play in the 80s when the other two guys were playing seasons where a ~3.00 GAA was the norm. And on top of that, he figures more heavily into Hart, Vezina, and all-star balloting, so...

How does the guy with the Vezina in '85/86, 3rd in Hart voting after Fedorov/Hasek and Vezina runner-up in '93/94, and who represented his country five times between those end points alone (Olympics and WJC obviously omitted, although Beezer attended both), get so easily considered 3rd out of these guys?
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
So would a lot of people, which is interesting. I say interesting, because dealing with past eras has resulting in leaning on awards and all-star voting because stats "can't be trusted". Well, Vanbiesbrouck not only has better stats than Barrasso while playing on worse teams, he still compares statistically well to Cujo - who didn't even play in the 80s when the other two guys were playing seasons where a ~3.00 GAA was the norm. And on top of that, he figures more heavily into Hart, Vezina, and all-star balloting, so...

How does the guy with the Vezina in '85/86, 3rd in Hart voting after Fedorov/Hasek and Vezina runner-up in '93/94, and who represented his country five times between those end points alone (Olympics and WJC obviously omitted, although Beezer attended both), get so easily considered 3rd out of these guys?
Click to expand...

Part of the answer is : in the days, if you trailed in Vezina/Hart voting, you were possibly a below-average goalie in said league.
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
So would a lot of people, which is interesting. I say interesting, because dealing with past eras has resulting in leaning on awards and all-star voting because stats "can't be trusted". Well, Vanbiesbrouck not only has better stats than Barrasso while playing on worse teams, he still compares statistically well to Cujo - who didn't even play in the 80s when the other two guys were playing seasons where a ~3.00 GAA was the norm. And on top of that, he figures more heavily into Hart, Vezina, and all-star balloting, so...

How does the guy with the Vezina in '85/86, 3rd in Hart voting after Fedorov/Hasek and Vezina runner-up in '93/94, and who represented his country five times between those end points alone (Olympics and WJC obviously omitted, although Beezer attended both), get so easily considered 3rd out of these guys?
Click to expand...

People seem to go back and forth on awards voting. Sometimes people on here take it as the gospel truth since it is contemporary thought and other times they believe that we know better long after the fact.

Personally I think it will generally fall more in the middle and also depend on the circumstances. It is very easy to see that in some cases the criteria for awards voting seems to change as well. Sometimes a good media story dominates the voting. So at the very least not all of them are equal.

In any case, I could practically flip a coin on Barrasso and Vanbiesbrouck. While lurking in the threads here I haven't been sold either way on those two and don't have an existing preference.

I just said I would pick Cujo to be my goaltender out of the three.
 
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