Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Centers)

[MXD]

... A bit like I expected : the submission of my vote is delayed due to needing at a little more time to think about Forsberg vs. Crosby. Otherwise it was pretty straightforward.

Thanks to those who brought info regarding Kennedy. I had him MUCH lower in my list, and well, I was wrong.

 

[unknown33]

Longevity, intangibles, eye test...

Eye test against Crosby?
I see.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

This was mentioned by someone else earlier...we have seen multiple times in a 7 game series that opponents have successfully been able to get in his head and off his game and/or shutting him down.

Want to clarify that I did not mean this in the sense that I think it takes home out of consideration this round, which after re-reading the post I responded to, realize that's what it sounded like. I was simply giving a specific criticism of him compared to some of the other players up this round. I do think he deserves consideration for this round. Right now he's in my top 3-5 but not sure where in that range.

 

[pluppe]

I would love to see Crosby and Malkin up for voting in the same round. I think Crosby has the edge but it would be an interesting comparison.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would love to see Crosby and Malkin up for voting in the same round. I think Crosby has the edge but it would be an interesting comparison.

Malkin just hasn't had the year-to-year consistency that Crosby has had. Omitting the current season:

Top 10 Points Malkin
2007-08 NHL 106 (2)
2008-09 NHL 113 (1)
2011-12 NHL 109 (1)

Top 10 Points Crosby
2005-06 NHL 102 (6)
2006-07 NHL 120 (1)
2008-09 NHL 103 (3)
2009-10 NHL 109 (2)
2012-13 NHL 56 (3)

Top 10 Points-per-game Malkin
2007-08 NHL 1.29 (3)
2008-09 NHL 1.38 (2)
2009-10 NHL 1.15 (8)
2011-12 NHL 1.45 (1)

Top 10 Points-per-game Crosby
2005-06 NHL 1.26 (6)
2006-07 NHL 1.52 (1)
2007-08 NHL 1.36 (2)
2008-09 NHL 1.34 (3)
2009-10 NHL 1.35 (4)
2010-11 NHL 1.61 (1)
2012-13 NHL 1.56 (1)

And I think most people agree that Crosby's non-offensive game is better than Malkin's

 

[ted2019]

I think this pretty much sums it up.

(Injury concerns are what make Crosby tougher to rank than, say, Ovechkin, who actually has a full 8 year stretch of healthy play heading into the current season).

I agree that His injuries have made it more difficult to rank, but look at what He's done.
4X 100 PTS
1X Rocket Richard winner
1X Stanley Cup Winner ( 2X to the Finals)
1.41 PPG In 499 Games
253 Goals
450 Assists
703 Pts.
Adjusted Stats:
317 Goals
544 Assists
861 Pts.
Playoffs:
82 Games
105 Pts.
1.28 PPG
1X Art Ross
1X Hart Trophy & 2X Ted Lindsay Award

He also worked on His weaknesses and made Them into Strengths. He was horrible at Faceoffs and on He's one of the best in the league.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I agree that His injuries have made it more difficult to rank, but look at what He's done.
4X 100 PTS
1X Rocket Richard winner
1X Stanley Cup Winner ( 2X to the Finals)
1.41 PPG In 499 Games
253 Goals
450 Assists
703 Pts.
Adjusted Stats:
317 Goals
544 Assists
861 Pts.
Playoffs:
82 Games
105 Pts.
1.28 PPG
1X Art Ross
1X Hart Trophy & 2X Ted Lindsay Award

He also worked on His weaknesses and made Them into Strengths. He was horrible at Faceoffs and on He's one of the best in the league.

You're approaching some dangerous territory with those adjusted statistics. Sidney Crosby gets credit for 106 adjusted points in 2012-13 (56 in reality) and 121 adjusted points in 2013-14 (38 in reality). At least let him finish a season before you start applying adjusted numbers to his resume. It seems rather presumptuous to tell us that he's going to score the value of 49 Goals and 72 Assists this year when we're less than 30 games into the season.

 

[pluppe]

Malkin just hasn't had the year-to-year consistency that Crosby has had. Omitting the current season:

Top 10 Points Malkin
2007-08 NHL 106 (2)
2008-09 NHL 113 (1)
2011-12 NHL 109 (1)

Top 10 Points Crosby
2005-06 NHL 102 (6)
2006-07 NHL 120 (1)
2008-09 NHL 103 (3)
2009-10 NHL 109 (2)
2012-13 NHL 56 (3)

Top 10 Points-per-game Malkin
2007-08 NHL 1.29 (3)
2008-09 NHL 1.38 (2)
2009-10 NHL 1.15 (8)
2011-12 NHL 1.45 (1)

Top 10 Points-per-game Crosby
2005-06 NHL 1.26 (6)
2006-07 NHL 1.52 (1)
2007-08 NHL 1.36 (2)
2008-09 NHL 1.34 (3)
2009-10 NHL 1.35 (4)
2010-11 NHL 1.61 (1)
2012-13 NHL 1.56 (1)

And I think most people agree that Crosby's non-offensive game is better than Malkin's

Oh, I agree but there are interesting factors such as first all star teams (3 vs 2), Art rosses (2 vs 1), Conn smythes (1 vs 0) and Harts (1 vs 1).

And while Crosby plays a very high energy game and is better defensively Malkin is not a bad defensive player and is very good at takeaways. You could also argue that while Crosby has had injuries that has made him miss games, Malkin has had injuries that influence PPG more (shoulder, knees vs concussion, jaw).

They are close as post season players and are their top 10s really that far apart. If we would take away their equal finishes it's 1 vs 3, 3, 6 (and one of the 3s were in a shortened season). Make it top 20 and we get 1, 18, 19 vs 3, 3, 6 (with one of the 3s in a shortened season).

Malkin also finished as a clear 3rd in the KHL point race with considerably less games in a lockout strengthened season. I think that should also be accounted for as impressive.

They are also close in Pitsburgh MVPs (3 vs 4 in favor of Crosby).

I agree Sid takes this (mainly by his per game dominance) but I think the above shows that you could make an argument that it should be somewhat close. Malkin has consistently been ranked as one of the few superstars in the league for most of his career and let's (for arguments sake) say Malkin beats Crosby in the art ross and Hart race this year (which is not an unreasonable scenario). What then?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh, I agree but there are interesting factors such as first all star teams (3 vs 2), Art rosses (2 vs 1), Conn smythes (1 vs 0) and Harts (1 vs 1).

And while Crosby plays a very high energy game and is better defensively Malkin is not a bad defensive player and is very good at takeaways. You could also argue that while Crosby has had injuries that has made him miss games, Malkin has had injuries that influence PPG more (shoulder, knees vs concussion, jaw).

They are close as post season players and are their top 10s really that far apart. If we would take away their equal finishes it's 1 vs 3, 3, 6 (and one of the 3s were in a shortened season). Make it top 20 and we get 1, 18, 19 vs 3, 3, 6 (with one of the 3s in a shortened season).

Malkin also finished as a clear 3rd in the KHL point race with considerably less games in a lockout strengthened season. I think that should also be accounted for as impressive.

They are also close in Pitsburgh MVPs (3 vs 4 in favor of Crosby).

I agree Sid takes this (mainly by his per game dominance) but I think the above shows that you could make an argument that it should be somewhat close. Malkin has consistently been ranked as one of the few superstars in the league for most of his career and let's (for arguments sake) say Malkin beats Crosby in the art ross and Hart race this year (which is not an unreasonable scenario). What then?

Is your point that it's too soon for us to add Crosby because he hasn't distinguished himself from Malkin? In that case, I disagree. At their best, they are similar, but Crosby has been far more consistent to date, in my opinion.

 

[pluppe]

Is your point that it's too soon for us to add Crosby because he hasn't distinguished himself from Malkin? In that case, I disagree. At their best, they are similar, but Crosby has been far more consistent to date, in my opinion.

My point is what I have said. I think Crosby is better (and I don't think it is to soon to add him). But that I find the comparison interesting and I was actually surprised at how similar their accomlishments were when looking at the factors that are commonly used in these kinds of threads (playoffs, individual trophys, first all star teams). Malkin also has another 3rd place finish in russia before coming over and an in my eyes more impressive international resumé.

I think "far more consistant" as a conclusion is stretching it.

But this may be off topic and could be revisited when he does come up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My point is what I have said. I think Crosby is better (and I don't think it is to soon to add him). But that I find the comparison interesting and I was actually surprised at how similar their accomlishments were when looking at the factors that are commonly used in these kinds of threads (playoffs, individual trophys, first all star teams). Malkin also has another 3rd place finish in russia before coming over and an in my eyes more impressive international resumé.

I think "far more consistant" as a conclusion is stretching it.

But this may be off topic and could be revisited when he does come up.

Yes, please wait until Malkin comes up to make a case for him. He will come up... eventually

 

[Hardyvan123]

... A bit like I expected : the submission of my vote is delayed due to needing at a little more time to think about Forsberg vs. Crosby. Otherwise it was pretty straightforward.

Thanks to those who brought info regarding Kennedy. I had him MUCH lower in my list, and well, I was wrong.

I'm going to sleep on my vote as well, on days off here anyways and not sure about Sid and Foppa but leaning Foppa for now and how to slot the other guys,. Dionne should be in my top 4 as a lot of his downside is team related, in the regular season (where everyone has the same competition more or less his resume is good enough for top 4 IMO) which will probably squeeze Feds out at this point or Richard, man just not sure yet.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My point is what I have said. I think Crosby is better (and I don't think it is to soon to add him). But that I find the comparison interesting and I was actually surprised at how similar their accomlishments were when looking at the factors that are commonly used in these kinds of threads (playoffs, individual trophys, first all star teams). Malkin also has another 3rd place finish in russia before coming over and an in my eyes more impressive international resumé.

I think "far more consistant" as a conclusion is stretching it.

But this may be off topic and could be revisited when he does come up.

sure his internatioanl resume looks more impressive but over that same epriod of time Sid was either in the NHL or having a pretty good internatioanl resume as well.

Just to compare both guys played in the 06 WC and 100 Olympics with Malkin having a 7-3-6-9 line to Sid's 9-8-816 and then Malkin with a 4-3-3-6 line in 10 compared to Sid with a 7-3-4-7 line.

And really the only thing keeping the comp as close as it is is Sid's health.

 

[MadArcand]

Eye test against Crosby?
I see.

~shrug~
I've just never been extremely impressed by his playstyle. Sure, he's good, pretty damn good, even. But if I were to choose between him and Forsberg, just on eye test... it'd be pretty damn close. And Forsberg has a significant longevity and intangibles edge. To me, it's like Crosby and Ovechkin dominate a bloody bland competition. Perhaps I've been spoiled by the likes of Sakic being great and coming just third against Gretzky and Lemieux.

Alone I wouldn't give that such a big weight, but combined with his extremely poor longevity, and me being rather career-based...

sidenote: if this post doesn't seem to make sense, well, I'm bloody drunk ATM

 

[quoipourquoi]

And Forsberg has a significant longevity and intangibles edge

Quick run of the numbers:

Sidney Crosby
RS: 499
Playoff: 82
International: 16
Total: 597

Peter Forsberg
RS: 708
Playoff: 151
International: 63
Total w/o Modo: 922
Modo (Pre-1994 Lockout): 155
Modo (1994 Lockout and Beyond): 71
Total w/ Modo: 1148


There is a fairly large gap there, even if you ignore the Patrick Poulin-sized GP sample from pre-1994 lockout Modo. Comparable top-10 finishes. Each has four top-fives and an additional top-ten in points. Forsberg has four top-fives in assists and three more top-tens; Crosby led in goals once, has three top-fives in assists, and two more top-tens.

I think the difference in longevity justifies some separation, provided the voter has not been consistently voting for the best prime/peak. I'm not sure that separation would reach as far as Crosby falling behind Sergei Fedorov, however, who may have come up a little early in my estimation.

It'll be interesting to see how the votes reflect this: Will Crosby be marked down for his longevity and health to the same extent as Forsberg in the previous round - or to a noticeably greater extent as the GP seems to suggest.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

It'll be interesting to see how the votes reflect this: Will Crosby be marked down for his longevity and health to the same extent as Forsberg in the previous round - or to a noticeably greater extent as the GP seems to suggest.

How would we expect this to manifest in the voting, considering Crosby's expected front-running position if we considered all the "greatness" aspects before factoring in the "longevity" ones?

 

[Hardyvan123]

How would we expect this to manifest in the voting, considering Crosby's expected front-running position if we considered all the "greatness" aspects before factoring in the "longevity" ones?

This is what I'm juggling with these 2 players, Sid had the longer "best player in the world ranking" but Forsberg has the longevity and playoff resume....right now.

I think that I will have Forsberg ahead of Sid, this round but it's an interesting question as to when Sid will pass Foppa on this list (for those that do have Foppa ahead that is).

 

[Hardyvan123]

Voted and after a clear #1, well to me anyways, 2-5 were extremely close then a small gap and 6-8 were a tossup as well with Bentley out.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Voted. It wasn't till I actually sat down to make my list that I realized how closely I hold all of these guys.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have procedural votes from bigbuffalo, C1958, Dennis Bonvie, Hardyvan, MXD, reckoning, tarheel, Tony D, and VI

Edit: and Rob Scuderi, Sturm, ted1971, and myself

If I don't get a procedural vote by 10pm est today, I'm assuming you don't care and are just voting on the players