Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

FYI international hockey was available on the CBC and CTV since 1960. Olympics, WHC, Canadian tours and tournaments especially during the Christmas/New Years period in the second half of the 1960s so the visual data was readily available to Canadian fans well before 1976.

The characterization of 1976 is simply false. 1976 is seen as the acme of Holecek's career. Coincides with what is available on Youtube - Olympic Final game and Canada Cup. So I presented what was available with an explanation.

Point about Orr in 1971 or Gretzky in 1981 does not apply. At no time in the 1971 playoffs or 1981 Canada Cup did Orr or Gretzky show that they could not skate well enough to compete in the NHL. Holecek in the 1976 clips shown, clearly is seen letting his skates leave the ice when moving in the crease. This is a flaw that did not arise just for the clips. It is a flaw that would have kept Holecek from making inroads in NA hockey.

Okay. It just seems like you are focusing a ton on the 1976 Canada Cup. Seems like you think Holecek had a style that was destined to fail against NHLers and you are pointing to the Canada Cup as the time when it did fail. But what about the times when it didn't fail, such as the 1972 Summit Series Exhibitions and the 1978 World Championships? (And the exhibition games versus the WHA).

I get that there is an issue that Holecek didn't play a large sample of games against NHLers. But he did play a large sample of games vs the USSR and excelled. And those USSR teams proved themselves against NHLers.

 

[Killion]

FYI international hockey was available on the CBC and CTV since 1960.

... yes, quite true. I remember tromping on down to Maple Leaf Gardens to watch a team comprised of Canadian National Team & Toronto Marlies (Jr's) early 60's play the Czech's, Sunday Matinee'. Indeed, Father David Bauers' excellent hockey program, in terms of ambition as a player & the possibility of joining the national team program ranked right up there with playing in the NHL. The Czech's in particular, as we got see more of them than the Soviets, an incredible nation of hockey players who you just had to respect & love. That in and of itself however does not prevent me from casting a critical eye in terms of the play & development of their Goaltenders, which quite frankly was their Achilles Heel in facing North American squads. But even then, their defensive game was such that it mitigated, ameliorated those shortcomings to a large extent. They were that good, really quite incredible playing as 5 man units.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Factual

Okay. It just seems like you are focusing a ton on the 1976 Canada Cup. Seems like you think Holecek had a style that was destined to fail against NHLers and you are pointing to the Canada Cup as the time when it did fail. But what about the times when it didn't fail, such as the 1972 Summit Series Exhibitions and the 1978 World Championships? (And the exhibition games versus the WHA).

I get that there is an issue that Holecek didn't play a large sample of games against NHLers. But he did play a large sample of games vs the USSR and excelled. And those USSR teams proved themselves against NHLers.

Let's keep things factual. !972 Summit Series was one game against a sobriety challenged Team Canada:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/czechoslovakia.html

21 saves on 24 shots, 11 in the last two periods, .878SV%. Dryden outplayed him.

Swedish goalies did just as well:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/swedengame1.html

http://www.1972summitseries.com/swedengame2.html

without the fanfare.

The limited examples of success were on the larger International rinks where the Czechs and their early version of the LWL masked the goaltending flaws of both Dzurilla and Holecek.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I hate to interrupt here, especially Killion who cracks me up in these things... but I see this, TDMM...

Domestic

Holecek:
•CSSR Golden Stick Top 10 Finishes: 1st (1974), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1977), 2nd (1978), 5th (1971), 5th (1972), 5th (1973), 8th (1977)
•All Star or Best Goalie in Extraliga (1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978)

Dzurilla:
•CSSR Golden Stick Top 10 finishes: 3rd (1972), 4th (1970), 5th (1969), 6th, (1977), 9th (1976),
•All Star or Best Goalie in Extraliga (1969, 1970, 1977)

I realize that Dzurilla was better than Holecek before 1969 when the awards were first given, so the gap isn't quite as big as the awards different looks. But Czechoslovak hockey in general was much weaker before 1968 or 1969 than it was in the 1970s.

Where would be a good start for me to look into the competition in which these awards were rendered? I know stats might be tough to come by, but is there a good spot to look where I might find, say, the other goalies that played in the Czech League in 1972 or '68 or whatever...?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Let's keep things factual. !972 Summit Series was one game against a sobriety challenged Team Canada:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/czechoslovakia.html

21 saves on 24 shots, 11 in the last two periods, .878SV%. Dryden outplayed him.

Swedish goalies did just as well:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/swedengame1.html

http://www.1972summitseries.com/swedengame2.html

without the fanfare.

I listed a few games and you bold just one of the list and then proudly proclaim it was just one game. Awesome.

The limited examples of success were on the larger International rinks where the Czechs and their early version of the LWL masked the goaltending flaws of both Dzurilla and Holecek.

How does playing on a large rink (with wider angles) mask a goaltending flaw?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I hate to interrupt here, especially Killion who cracks me up in these things... but I see this, TDMM...



Where would be a good start for me to look into the competition in which these awards were rendered? I know stats might be tough to come by, but is there a good spot to look where I might find, say, the other goalies that played in the Czech League in 1972 or '68 or whatever...?

Not exactly what you are looking for but this site has the top 10s in Czech Golden Stick voting. Not sure where theokritos got voting past the top 10, but if it's anything like NHL awards voting, the sample of voters past #10 is too low to draw conclusions from anyway. If you want all the voting records in a table, post 5 of International & European Reference Thread has them.

To me, the awards from international tournaments are more meaningful, because competition includes everyone in Europe. Starting in 1977, the World Championships also included NHL players who didn't make the playoffs. I do like to look at domestic awards voting to "confirm" that a good international player was also dominant in his domestic league (which is a larger sample size).

 

[Killion]

... is there a good spot to look where I might find, say, the other goalies that played in the Czech League in 1972 or '68 or whatever...?

... there is Mr. Farkas. Are you familiar with Chernobyl? I believe you'll find the records you seek in a bank of rusting file cabinets in the basement of the one time Komissar Pripyat.... just be careful. The Hills Have Eyes.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Factual II

I listed a few games and you bold just one of the list and then proudly proclaim it was just one game. Awesome.



How does playing on a large rink (with wider angles) mask a goaltending flaw?

Reference was to the methodology. Your methodology neglects considering how other European teams and goalies did against the same teams. Obvious in the 1972 example when Sweden is introduced.

Larger rink delays the arrival of the incoming forwards at the crease.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Reference was to the methodology. Your methodology neglects considering how other European teams and goalies did against the same teams. Obvious in the 1972 example when Sweden is introduced.

Okay. In the 1978 World Championships, Holecek did better against the NHLers than other Europeans, right? Small sample size, but that's all we have to deal with when it comes to games against NHLers.

Larger rink delays the arrival of the incoming forwards at the crease.

Would you say that Holecek optimized his game for the conditions he actually played under?

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

Would you say that Holecek optimized his game for the conditions he actually played under?

No, the Czechoslovakian National team optimized their team defence to the situation at hand - powerhouse Soviet Team and their own suspect goaltending.

 

[Killion]

Would you say that Holecek optimized his game for the conditions he actually played under?

I differ from C58 here, I think he did to the best of his limited knowledge. It was quite obvious from his play that he unfortunately hadnt been the recipient or beneficiary of anykind of serious coaching in his youth. He was pretty much all raw reaction, trial & error, apparent to those in the know that he'd based his game on soccer goaltending. East west foot movement, leg dangles, almost spastic arm, hands & erratic upper body movement, playing it somewhere between a Curler on the down low horizontal and vertically like a High Jumper doing the Fosbury Flip. Well, quite frankly TDMM, a rather bizarre display of Goaltending to say the least. Sort of guy you wouldnt be surprised to see walking into the dressing room pre-game with a coupla Greek Pizza's, case of beer, consuming both BEFORE he went out on the ice. Follow?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No, the Czechoslovakian National team optimized their team defence to the situation at hand - powerhouse Soviet Team and their own suspect goaltending.

Everything I have ever read about the 1970s Czechoslovakian National Teams indicated that goaltending was considered a strength of the team, especially against the USSR and Tretiak. The IIHF directorate (who chose best goalie of the tournament) and the media (who picks the All Star Teams) seemed to think so.

I mean, I can buy that Holecek's style was perhaps better against the Soviet East-West game than the Canadian North-South game. But calling Czechoslovakia's goaltending "suspect" seems pretty out there.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ironic

Everything I have ever read about the 1970s Czechoslovakian National Teams indicated that goaltending was considered a strength of the team, especially against the USSR and Tretiak. The IIHF directorate (who chose best goalie of the tournament) and the media (who picks the All Star Teams) seemed to think so.

Ironic that the same respect is not shown to the 1940's NHL coaches and writers.

Strength in the context of other European National teams and goalies. Dzurilla and Holecek certainly gave the Czech more depth in goal than any European team.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Czech Team Defence

Everything I have ever read about the 1970s Czechoslovakian National Teams indicated that goaltending was considered a strength of the team, especially against the USSR and Tretiak. The IIHF directorate (who chose best goalie of the tournament) and the media (who picks the All Star Teams) seemed to think so.

I mean, I can buy that Holecek's style was perhaps better against the Soviet East-West game than the Canadian North-South game. But calling Czechoslovakia's goaltending "suspect" seems pretty out there.

Czech team defence kept the Soviet East West game under control. 1976 Olympic clip showed this. Once that broke down on the Yakushev goal Holacek was flopping around like a fish out of water.

 

[Hammer Time]

Is all this talk of unorthodox, "flopping" styles from Czechoslovakian goalies really a knock on them?

Jiri Crha, who was Holecek's backup on the national team, came to the Leafs and had a rather good stretch of play considering the circumstances (team with losing record). And the man who succeeded Crha as HC Pardubice's goalie, who modelled his game on both Holecek and Crha, has already been voted into the list at #2. Say what you want about their style of goaltending, but goalies similar to Holecek clearly found a way to make it work against NHL competition.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is all this talk of unorthodox, "flopping" styles from Czechoslovakian goalies really a knock on them?

Jiri Crha, who was Holecek's backup on the national team, came to the Leafs and had a rather good stretch of play considering the circumstances (team with losing record). And the man who succeeded Crha as HC Pardubice's goalie, who modelled his game on both Holecek and Crha, has already been voted into the list at #2. Say what you want about their style of goaltending, but goalies similar to Holecek clearly found a way to make it work against NHL competition.

One thing, and it might not be related to the project even, but there aren't just three goaltending techniques: butterfly, stand-up and, let's say, acrobatic...

People that are more in the talent evaluation neck of the woods name some fundamental flaws in a goaltender and somehow people take these things and spin them into Dominik Hasek and go "see, it's not so bad" ...Hasek wasn't like anything I've ever seen, and maybe someone can point to a goalie that was similar in style and success, but I've never seen it. Holecek didn't play like Hasek, Cechmanek didn't play like Hasek, Tim Thomas doesn't play like Hasek, Yutaka Fukufuji didn't play like Hasek...that's just not what happened. Whether or not it's relevant to discussion is another matter, but it's a tiny bit frustrating to see all non-butterfly goalies lumped into "other" with Hasek being the exception to the rule that justifies all the others despite noteworthy dissimilarities in play style...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm still not entirely convinced that Holecek's game was more "fundamentally flawed" than Ken Dryden's. Dryden never did look that great against the Soviet East-West attack that has since largely been incorporated into the NHL. And I'm pretty sure Dryden had more chances to play against the Soviets than Holecek did against NHL players.

 

[seventieslord]

Ironic that the same respect is not shown to the 1940's NHL coaches and writers.

Strength in the context of other European National teams and goalies. Dzurilla and Holecek certainly gave the Czech more depth in goal than any European team.

Is there a strong body of evidence suggesting that the IIHF voters simply chose the goalie with the lowest tournament GAA?

I'm assuming no.

Also, in a short tournament with all games played at the same venue, you can be sure that their votes were based on watching 100% of the games that were played, as opposed to one third.

 

[Killion]

I'm still not entirely convinced that Holecek's game was more "fundamentally flawed" than Ken Dryden's. Dryden never did look that great against the Soviet East-West attack that has since largely been incorporated into the NHL. And I'm pretty sure Dryden had more chances to play against the Soviets than Holecek did against NHL players.

... yepp. That right there is an intelligent & astute counter-argument, provided one first drops all pretensions to North Americans being superior to European & Russian players. Whats interesting is that despite the innumerable commonalities, really shared heritages in a mutual love for the game, development on both sides proceeded in a vacuum. Those differences were pretty stark in 72. Here you had a highly paid & much vaunted goaltender in Dryden, himself an an anomaly within NHL circles unable to adapt, deal with the onslaught, yet purportedly one of the more outstanding intellects the games ever known.

At the other end of the rink, be it Tretiak, Holocek or Dzurilla, guys who played entirely instinctively, atrocious footwork & all, lack of communication with their own defenders & team mates absolutely coming up roses, especially against their own unique opponents. Be that the Soviets vs Czech Republic, the Finns or Swedes. Parallel tracks. Then when Worlds Collide as they did in 1972, easy for us North American born & bred goaltenders to ridicule the Europeans, yet when push really came to shove, there is in my mind absolutely no question whatsoever that the European goaltenders OUTPLAYED & bested our best. The Soviets, Czechs, Swedes & Finns might have lost the games, the series, but they certainly earned this guys respect. And particularly so their goaltenders.

Then again TDMM. I personally never did play any of them. And as I am, or perhaps I should say was an absolute God in the crease, I guess we'll never really know huh?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there a strong body of evidence suggesting that the IIHF voters simply chose the goalie with the lowest tournament GAA?

I'm assuming no.

Also, in a short tournament with all games played at the same venue, you can be sure that their votes were based on watching 100% of the games that were played, as opposed to one third.

Well, there was pretty convincing evidence in the Tretiak discussion that the World Championships awards went to the goalie who won Gold quite a bit less often than you would think. Not sure what to make of that though.

 

[lamini]

No, the Czechoslovakian National team optimized their team defence to the situation at hand - powerhouse Soviet Team and their own suspect goaltending.

Do you think Czechoslovakia would have better result against Soviets if they had Dryden instead?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sample Space

Is there a strong body of evidence suggesting that the IIHF voters simply chose the goalie with the lowest tournament GAA?

I'm assuming no.

Also, in a short tournament with all games played at the same venue, you can be sure that their votes were based on watching 100% of the games that were played, as opposed to one third.

Still one third of the NHL games creates a much greater sample space with an opportunity to watch how a goalie adapts to a team and players over the course of a 5 - 6 month season.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparison

Well, there was pretty convincing evidence in the Tretiak discussion that the World Championships awards went to the goalie who won Gold quite a bit less often than you would think. Not sure what to make of that though.

One interpretation could be that the 1st AST to GAA comparison was a false comparison? Try SC winning goalie(equivalent to Gold) to 1st AST or to the GAA/Vezina and you get far different results.

Regardless the measure is not consistent and unsupported.

 

[Canadiens1958]

True

I differ from C58 here, I think he did to the best of his limited knowledge. It was quite obvious from his play that he unfortunately hadnt been the recipient or beneficiary of anykind of serious coaching in his youth. He was pretty much all raw reaction, trial & error, apparent to those in the know that he'd based his game on soccer goaltending. East west foot movement, leg dangles, almost spastic arm, hands & erratic upper body movement, playing it somewhere between a Curler on the down low horizontal and vertically like a High Jumper doing the Fosbury Flip. Well, quite frankly TDMM, a rather bizarre display of Goaltending to say the least. Sort of guy you wouldnt be surprised to see walking into the dressing room pre-game with a coupla Greek Pizza's, case of beer, consuming both BEFORE he went out on the ice. Follow?

True. Still the compensation and adaptation had to come from somewhere. If the goalie is not directing the back end, the team has to adapt. If the goalie is weak against certain types of offence the team has to limit that type of attack.

 

[Canadiens1958]

If....

Do you think Czechoslovakia would have better result against Soviets if they had Dryden instead?

If they had fundamentally sound and better coached goalies it would have been to their advantage.