Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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Thanks to participants who brought solid evidence regarding Carbonneau.

I'd like to get some input or insight regarding Frank Foyston. From where I stand, I'd consider him the 2nd best pre-merger player available, Keats being first. What Im mainly thinling about is whether he's top-6, top-8, or not top-8 at all in this group.

Opinions ? Thoughts ?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Thanks to participants who brought solid evidence regarding Carbonneau.

I'd like to get some input or insight regarding Frank Foyston. From where I stand, I'd consider him the 2nd best pre-merger player available, Keats being first. What Im mainly thinling about is whether he's top-6, top-8, or not top-8 at all in this group.

Opinions ? Thoughts ?

Foyston will definitely be in my top 8, though I'm not sure where. He had quite a deal of star power, was named PCHA MVP once, and was the greatest playoff performer of his era who didn't play on the Ottawa dynasty. He'll be below Keats, but I'm not sure how far.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Here are some situational and adjusted stats for the post-expansion centres up for voting.

Since a standard of seven years has been set for looking at a player's prime, I have run the numbers for the best seven consecutive seasons for each player. In addition, I have run a second seven season period for Brind'Amour, Nieuwendyk, and Roenick, as they each had many significant seasons outside of their seven season prime.

Adjusted and Situational Stats - Even Strength
Years | Player | GP | Seasons | EV% | TmEV+ | $ESGF/S | $ESGA/S | R-ON | R-OFF | $AEV+/-/S | $ESP/S
72-78 | Jacques Lemaire | 511 | 6.5 | 33% | 1.74 | 83 | 43 | 1.94 | 1.64 | 20 | 57
79-85 | Bernie Federko | 535 | 6.7 | 35% | 0.94 | 64 | 63 | 1.02 | 0.90 | 6 | 54
85-91 | Guy Carbonneau | 543 | 6.8 | 28% | 1.23 | 55 | 42 | 1.29 | 1.20 | 6 | 40
87-93 | Pat Lafontaine | 524 | 6.5 | 38% | 0.98 | 69 | 63 | 1.09 | 0.92 | 9 | 54
89-95 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 493 | 6.5 | 32% | 1.29 | 69 | 49 | 1.40 | 1.23 | 12 | 50
91-97 | Jeremy Roenick | 498 | 6.4 | 35% | 1.16 | 62 | 47 | 1.33 | 1.07 | 13 | 50
93-99 | Pierre Turgeon | 486 | 6.3 | 37% | 1.05 | 76 | 63 | 1.20 | 1.01 | 12 | 64
93-99 | Rod Brind'Amour | 541 | 7.0 | 34% | 1.18 | 64 | 63 | 1.01 | 1.26 | -9 | 50
96-02 | Jeremy Roenick | 496 | 6.3 | 35% | 1.11 | 62 | 54 | 1.16 | 1.07 | 6 | 50
98-04 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 482 | 5.9 | 31% | 1.21 | 60 | 47 | 1.29 | 1.19 | 7 | 47
01-08 | Rod Brind'Amour | 501 | 6.1 | 34% | 0.92 | 62 | 61 | 1.03 | 0.88 | 7 | 45
07-13 | Henrik Sedin | 540 | 7.0 | 36% | 1.18 | 76 | 49 | 1.56 | 1.01 | 27 | 63
10-13 | Steven Stamkos | 294 | 4.0 | 41% | 0.93 | 87 | 78 | 1.11 | 0.83 | 19 | 67

Stats Glossary
EV%: The percentage of the team’s even-strength goals the player was on the ice for, on a per-game basis.

TmEV+: The average strength of the player's team at even strength. Expressed as a GF/GA ratio.

$ESGF/S: On-ice even strength goals for per season, adjusted to a 180 ESG per team-season scoring level.

$ESGA/S: On-ice even strength goals against per season, adjusted to a 180 ESG per team-season scoring level.

R-ON: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is on the ice at even strength.

R-OFF: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is off the ice at even strength.

$ESP/S:Even strength points per season, adjusted to a 180 ESG per team-season scoring level.



Adjusted and Situational Stats - Special Teams
Years | Player | GP | Seasons | PP% | TmPP+ | $PPP/S | SH% | TmSH+ | SHP/S
72-78 | Jacques Lemaire | 511 | 6.5 | 64% | 1.74 | 26 | 15% | 0.70 | 1
79-85 | Bernie Federko | 535 | 6.7 | 74% | 0.94 | 29 | 1% | 0.99 | 1
85-91 | Guy Carbonneau | 543 | 6.8 | 6% | 1.23 | 2 | 61% | 0.91 | 4
87-93 | Pat Lafontaine | 524 | 6.5 | 79% | 0.98 | 34 | 11% | 1.15 | 2
89-95 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 493 | 6.5 | 56% | 1.29 | 24 | 14% | 0.94 | 2
91-97 | Jeremy Roenick | 498 | 6.4 | 72% | 1.16 | 30 | 27% | 0.81 | 6
93-99 | Pierre Turgeon | 486 | 6.3 | 72% | 1.05 | 33 | 14% | 1.05 | 2
93-99 | Rod Brind'Amour | 541 | 7.0 | 57% | 1.18 | 24 | 52% | 0.97 | 4
96-02 | Jeremy Roenick | 496 | 6.3 | 73% | 1.11 | 29 | 28% | 0.87 | 4
98-04 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 482 | 5.9 | 51% | 1.21 | 22 | 2% | 0.86 | 0
01-08 | Rod Brind'Amour | 501 | 6.1 | 52% | 0.92 | 18 | 54% | 1.01 | 3
07-13 | Henrik Sedin | 540 | 7.0 | 66% | 1.18 | 29 | 4% | 0.95 | 2
10-13 | Steven Stamkos | 294 | 4.0 | 82% | 0.93 | 36 | 12% | 1.19 | 1

Stats Glossary
$PPP/S:Power play points per season, adjusted to a 70 PPG per team-season scoring level and a league-average number of power play opportunities.

PP%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals for which the player was on the ice.

TmPP+: The strength of the player’s team on the power play. 1.00 is average, higher is better.

SH%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals against for which the player was on the ice.

TmSH+: The strength of the player’s team on the penalty kill. 1.00 is average, lower is better.

$SHP/S: Shorthanded points per season, adjusted to a 10 SHG per team-season scoring level.


I won't say something about every player, but will focus especially on Guy Carbonneau because I think his statistics need to be presented fairly.

At even strength, Carbonneau had the lowest EV% of these players. This simply means that he was on the ice for the fewest even strength goals - both for and against - as a percentage of his team than any of these other players. We don't have ice time data, so this can mean two things. Either Carbonneau played less even strength ice time, or there were fewer goals scored when he was on the ice, or a combination of the two. Here's my best guess. Carbonneau was a checking centre who rarely played with skilled wingers, Iso think it's very likely that both GF and GA happened less frequently with Carbonneau on the ice. I would expect that Carbonneau played at least as much EV ice time as Joe Nieuwendyk (who had a 31-32% EV%, slightly higher than Carbonneau's 28%.)

Carbonneau also outperformed his team in GF/GA ratio in his prime. Most of these others players did so as well, so it doesn't sound so impressive - but again, consider that Carbonneau was matched up against the other team's best players and wasn't playing with his team's most skilled wingers. Very few players in that situation have every outperformed their team's GF/GA ratio. Rod Brind'Amour in Philadelphia was probably the only centre on this list who played in such a situation, and his on-ice goal ratio was well short of his team's.

At special teams, we heard about Carbonneau's shorthanded scoring compared to others. The problem with shorthanded scoring is that it's biased towards players who come out in the second half of the penalty kill and don't play against the opponent's first unit - like Jeremy Roenick. The best defensive players and penalty killers play against the opponent's first power play unit and play 5-on-3 minutes, which makes it harder to score shorties and more likely that they will be scored against. Looking at the SH% numbers - a measure of the percentage of the team's PPGA that each player was on the ice for - Carbonneau and Brind'Amour were the only two players who were go-to penalty killers in the toughest situations. We can infer this because they had a lot of goals scored against them and they kept being sent back out there over their careers. Comparing these two, Carbonneau played more/tougher minutes (higher SH%) for better penalty kills (better TmSH+). Although I must say that Roenick's numbers look pretty good for a second unit guy - good shorthanded scoring and he played for strong penalty kills.

General thoughts - keep in mind that these numbers are per-game and don't penalize players for missed games, so Pierre Turgeon's numbers look better. And on this per-game basis, we see that Pierre Turgeon and Henrik Sedin are the top two offensive players of the group - but I think we knew that already.

Power play numbers are all pretty similar, except for Carbonneau of course. Nieuwendyk and Brind'Amour both lag a little behind in power play points - but keep in mind both guys made their living around the net. Perimeter playmakers on the PP tend to get a higher number of points, especially assists, while the contribution of guys screening the goalie and playing around the net often goes unrecognized statistically.

Edit: I missed Lemaire and Stamkos the first time through - added them in. I only used Stamkos's four season peak. Take it for what it is - four seasons at higher level than these other players, but only four seasons. In terms of team strength, Stamkos and Lemaire were at opposite ends of the spectrum - Stamkos's teams were not particularly good, and Lemaire's were incredibly strong in all situations during his prime.

Good stuff. I'm guessing Roenick looks lower here than he did in my comparison of their best seasons, because you are using consecutive seasons, and Roenick was suffering from injuries in the middle of his career. His best seasons were in the mid 90s in Chicago (we recognize this), closely followed by the early 00s in Phoenix (which is often overlooked since he just missed being a top 10 scorer in Phoenix and almost nobody watched that team). With a good deal of injury-plagued off years in the middle.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Sedin, Lemaire, and Roenick are the three post-expansion NHLers I'm probably going to have in my top 8. Any final thoughts on how they compare to each other?

I think Stamkos and Lafontaine might have the most natural talent among remaining players (at least among modern ones), but I just don't think either of them accomplished enough for me to rank either one ahead of Sedin, Lemaire, or Roenick.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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Sedin, Lemaire, and Roenick are the three post-expansion NHLers I'm probably going to have in my top 8. Any final thoughts on how they compare to each other?

I think Stamkos and Lafontaine might have the most natural talent among remaining players (at least among modern ones), but I just don't think either of them accomplished enough for me to rank either one ahead of Sedin, Lemaire, or Roenick.

I'm not seeing much in terms of accomplishments for Roenick.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Superiority of offense - your basic point. Two key injuries in the NHL and International hockey. Steve Stamkos and Henrik Zetterberg. The offense provided by Steve Stamkos has not been missed by Tampa - team kept winning after he was hurt. Canada won gold without him. Offense is easily replaced, while defense is not.

Henrik Zetterberg was missed by Team Sweden and will be missed by Detroit for his defensive attributes.

Versatility has three main facets:

Development - young player plays out of his projected position because he is not physically ready or lacks the knowledge of the league to play a position.

Strategic - players who can play multiple positions and do so for strategic reasons.

Filler - two aspects, penalty or injury necessity, it is a positive attribute.
Nothing better available is a negative. Daniel Briere hanging around playing RW. Cannot play center anymore on a regular rotation but can score more than the likes of a Ryan White or a Travis Moen, RHS - handy for faceoffs if needed. But no one better is available so players hang around way beyond the expiry date.

So I guess our ratings, up to this point, have been pretty much backwards.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
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Superiority of offense - your basic point. Two key injuries in the NHL and International hockey. Steve Stamkos and Henrik Zetterberg. The offense provided by Steve Stamkos has not been missed by Tampa - team kept winning after he was hurt. Canada won gold without him. Offense is easily replaced, while defense is not.

30 GM's right now and most GM's in history have it wrong then by paying offensive guys vastly more than defensive ones?:shakehead

also yes TB did well without Stamkos, just like the Pens did without Sid and Sens without Karlsson, more a sign of the times and type of hockey than those players be easily replaced IMO.

Henrik Zetterberg was missed by Team Sweden and will be missed by Detroit for his defensive attributes.

Well he is the leading scorer on that red Wing team as well.

See above as they have won their first 2 games out of the break.

Versatility has three main facets:

Development - young player plays out of his projected position because he is not physically ready or lacks the knowledge of the league to play a position.

Strategic - players who can play multiple positions and do so for strategic reasons.

Filler - two aspects, penalty or injury necessity, it is a positive attribute.
Nothing better available is a negative. Daniel Briere hanging around playing RW. Cannot play center anymore on a regular rotation but can score more than the likes of a Ryan White or a Travis Moen, RHS - handy for faceoffs if needed. But no one better is available so players hang around way beyond the expiry date.

All interesting stuff but still doesn't answer the question.

You have brought up numerous times how a centers versatility to play another position is a positive (not that I agree that it should hold a ton of weight but be that as it may).

Is it not a positive in your mind for Rod over guy and if it is a positive for all those other players why wouldn't it be for Rod as well?
 

Canadiens1958

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Relative

30 GM's right now and most GM's in history have it wrong then by paying offensive guys vastly more than defensive ones?:shakehead

also yes TB did well without Stamkos, just like the Pens did without Sid and Sens without Karlsson, more a sign of the times and type of hockey than those players be easily replaced IMO.



Well he is the leading scorer on that red Wing team as well.

See above as they have won their first 2 games out of the break.

All interesting stuff but still doesn't answer the question.

You have brought up numerous times how a centers versatility to play another position is a positive (not that I agree that it should hold a ton of weight but be that as it may).

Is it not a positive in your mind for Rod over guy and if it is a positive for all those other players why wouldn't it be for Rod as well?

Money is paid for entertainment value, not for winning.

Detroit's Pythagorean is terrible, 159 GF / 164 GA. Cannot win regularly under such conditions.

Positive for Rod Brind'Amour,but not enough to bridge the gap. 433 more ESGA in 168 games than Carbonneau, playing mainly in a lower scoring era.
 

Hardyvan123

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Money is paid for entertainment value, not for winning.

Sorry but over the history of hockey money is paid for the best players, Eddie Shack and Tiger Williams were entertaining but not paid as top players in the league, and for obvious reasons.

The usual supply and demand market economics come into play every free agent season for forwards, if your premise that defense is harder to replace than offense we would see that in the marketplace right?

As it is the Holik contract is still laughed about here and is the exception proving the rule.

Detroit's Pythagorean is terrible, 159 GF / 164 GA. Cannot win regularly under such conditions.

What does that have to do with any current player up this round?

that's a completely different argument and discussion

Positive for Rod Brind'Amour,but not enough to bridge the gap. 433 more ESGA in 168 games than Carbonneau, playing mainly in a lower scoring era.

But that only affirms that Carbs was better defensively (with alot of very good to great defensive team mates over his career, not to mention that goalie named Roy)..

Here is the complete picture though.

Rod/Guy

ESGF 1106/898

ESGA 1145/898

PPGF 635/54

PPGA 512/499

Guy's line mates and team mates are a whose who of defensive players from Gainey to Chelios/Skrudland/Keane.

Unless one thinks that guy was a vastly better defensive player than Rod was, and there still is very little evidence of that, Rod's all around play, ie PP points shouldn't be seen as a negative, it's simply something guy didn't bring.
 
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seventieslord

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Yikes.... I went and pulled a Turgeon! I was in the middle of one of my three best threads ever, and I went and got injured (very sick), missing a significant portion of the discussion.

maybe that one single one. what about the rest?

If you think any of those things are major difference-making intangibles between the players, you are kidding yourself. what are we talking about anyway? oh yeah, the possibility that intangibles might have been the difference in all-star teams, right? Think about it. If Turgeon has the offensive seasons Sedin has, when he has them, do intangibles lose him the all-star teams? If Sedin has the offensive seasons Turgeon had, when he had them, do intangibles earn him any all-star teams? Come on.

that's situational though. sure, when your 1a center is pavol demitra and you've got conroy and handzus able to move up in the lineup, not to mention the hart trophy winner on the blueline, then sure go nuts and miss games. clearly the blues didn't miss him when he was out.

when your 2nd and 3rd line centers are robert petrovicky and rookie conroy and you finished one point over .500 and had to face the mini-dynasty wings in the first round? yeah, i think we'd rather that you played those extra 13 games.

I'm not sure how this is more relevant than what they players did on the ice..... ?

you're acting like a player's impact in a game, even a supposedly low-intangibles one, is limited to scoring points and we both know you know better than that. when henrik sedin isn't in the lineup (like he wasn't last month), you're forced to use a 5'8" rookie who just got back from being injured all year as your second line center. when lafontaine got involved, it made a difference beyond scoring points. when turgeon didn't, ditto.

Yes, Turgeon and Sedin's impacts are greatly limited to scoring points (Turgeon killed 3-4X as many penalties, but that really means dick, just like Sedin's ironman streak). And I'm not sure how you jumped on to what the consequences are if/when Sedin is injured. what's the point, really?

I'm pretty sure he (Federko) isn't going to be in my top 4 this round but he reminds me of Turgeon but 15 years earlier and with a better playoff record.

There are similarities for sure. But look at the adjusted figures in the wide variety of ways they've been presented in this thread - Federko is simply not in Turgeon's league as a producer.

Hardyvan123 said:
(Morris) might have the weakest case of the PCHA guys, it sure would help if we had more information on these guys but we don't and it's hard to see him in the top 60.

Dunderdale's resume as a scorer is far, far weaker. He has the weakest case of the PCHA guys, not Morris.

Novy has obvious strength in Czech league play and somewhat internationally, although it was the 70's. his NHL resume is extremely weak, especially when compared to Hlinka who was 2 years older at the same time.

Roenick has a very strong case to go #1 this round, his peak before his injury was that of a physical 200 foot player who was exciting and easily the best player on his team.

The best goalie in 1991 and 1993, and the best defenseman in 1993 indicate that Roenick was probably not "easily the best player on his team" before his injury.

Does anyone have any doubt that Roenick has a significantly better playoff resume than Turgeon, even if he didn't win the Cup?

Roenick had 95 points in his first 100 playoff games, Turgeon 90 in 94. Roenick was surely more "involved" along the way, but is that all it takes to call his resume "significantly better"? Just who he is and who Turgeon is?

I'm coming at the same conclusion and have the same doubts as to whether he's better than the first, or even the second, player in other clusters.

Speaking of clusters...

It's purely theoretical, but I wonder where to fit Federko. The best "grouping" would be with guys that are already in (Hawerchuk, Savard, Sittler, amongst others) or guys that aren't available for voting and are not Top-80 centers of all-time or aren't considered centers (Bobby Smith is the easy comparable here). He REALLY doesn't compare well at all with anybody in this round. And he really, but reallly doesn't fit in my last cluster

Guy Carbonneau is a cluster in himself.

ANCIENTS
Duke Keats
Frank Foyston
Bernie Morris
Tommy Dunderdale
Frank McGee
______

SHORT CAREER
Pat Lafontaine
Joe Primeau
Henrik Sedin
Steven Stamkos

______

NINETIES
Jeremy Roenick
Pierre Turgeon
Rod Brind'Amour
Joe Nieuwendyk

______

EUROPEANS
Milan Novy
Vyacheslav Starshinov

______

THE "don't know how to name that group -- the easy comparables with a guy already in who wasn't all offence, but who really do not compare that well one to another"
Neil Colville
Jacques Lemaire

I saw the clusters the same way too, but you forgot Federko and Lemaire. I put Carbo in that spot: "post-expansion".

not that this helps to sort them all out though.

I'm sure there is.

I'd say Toews and Bergeron are the equals of Carbonneau. And since no one actually saw Nighbor play it would be difficult to get a consensus that he was better than everyone else. Maybe they are the most famous defensive centers, but I wouldn't consider them hands-down the best 3 ever.

Most famous = best though, for all intents and purposes. Right?

-----------------------

I'm going to ask one more time for anyone who wants to take a stab at it. Hopefully this question doesn't strike out.

1992-93 is called a year in which it was really easy to get points. It's easy to see why. And Pierre Turgeon (among some others) had a career year that season. And then when it comes time to discuss adjusted points, it's often brought up (I think by TDMM typically) that 1992-93's adjusted points can't be taken at face value because of the way they are calculated and how the elite players had a greater share of the points that season.

If that's true, I'd agree, but is it true? 1992-93 was the highest scoring season of the 1990s but it's still lower scoring than any season in the 1980s. Taking 1992-93 vs. 1982-83 as an example:

me said:
Just a quick look at the points versus adjusted points shows that in 1993, 20% of Turgeon’s point total was lopped off to arrive at his adjusted total. In 1983, when I look at Denis Savard, 19% of his total is lopped off to arrive at his adjusted total. And league scoring in 1983 was 7% higher than in 1993

If hr's adjusted statas are based solely on leaguewide offense, why does it seem to punish 1982-83 and 1992-93 equally harshly, even though 1982-83 was a 7% higher scoring season? There's something else at play here, and I don't know exactly what it is, but it sure makes it look like we shouldn't be scoffing at 1992-93 adjusted points here.
 

Iain Fyffe

Hockey fact-checker
If hr's adjusted statas are based solely on leaguewide offense, why does it seem to punish 1982-83 and 1992-93 equally harshly, even though 1982-83 was a 7% higher scoring season? There's something else at play here, and I don't know exactly what it is, but it sure makes it look like we shouldn't be scoffing at 1992-93 adjusted points here.
It's not something simple as the 84-game schedule versus 80 is it?
 

BM67

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Players that have won 1000+ faceoffs in a season.

Player|Season|TFO|FOW|FO%
Brindamour|98-99|1773|1002|56.5
Brindamour|00-01|1907|1152|60.4
Brindamour|01-02|2057|1218|59.2
Brindamour|03-04|1817|1110|61.1
Brindamour|05-06|2145|1268|59.1
Brindamour|06-07|2047|1213|59.3
Messier|00-01|1879|1043|55.5
Oates|99-00|2176|1236|56.8
Oates|00-01|1836|1081|58.9
Oates|01-02|1965|1108|56.4
Rucchin|99-00|1996|1066|53.4
Sakic|00-01|2292|1215|53.0
Sakic|01-02|2149|1122|52.2
Sillinger|01-02|2025|1154|57.0
Sillinger|06-07|1708|1004|58.8
Sundin|98-99|1193|1142|57.3
Sundin|00-01|1870|1058|56.6
Sundin|01-02|1810|1041|57.5
Yzerman|99-00|1868|1061|56.8

19 seasons, 6 of them by Brindamour. Brindamour has the 5 highest FO% of the 19.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Lets keep this train on the rails guys. If you'd like to discuss player salaries from the NHA,
PCHA, NHL (and an interesting subject it be) then we can start a thread on the subject.
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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So...

Do we all agree that Morris, Dunderdale, Nieuwndyk and Federko are not top8 this round?

Sorry for changing topics -- while the discussion on the merits of Carbo and BrindAmour and some number crunching on those two were mandatory, I don't think we should make the current round a referendum on those two players...
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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Voted. My thoughts.
* Duke Keats * had to make it in My view. He's was simply too good.
* Jacques Lemaire * I've seen somewhere on here that He was the 5th or 6th best player during the Montreal dynasty, which means that he could've been the best player on many other teams. He was a key cog in the machine and doesn't seem to get enough credit. He still had 3 season of 10+ PPG and averaged .98 Points Per Game( .90.9 Adjusted)
* Henrik Sedin & Steven Stamkos * Sedin is a very good player, but not top 60 worthy. Stamkos is an ATD if He can stay healthy.
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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Voted. My thoughts.
* Duke Keats * had to make it in My view. He's was simply too good.
* Jacques Lemaire * I've seen somewhere on here that He was the 5th or 6th best player during the Montreal dynasty, which means that he could've been the best player on many other teams. He was a key cog in the machine and doesn't seem to get enough credit. He still had 3 season of 10+ PPG and averaged .98 Points Per Game( .90.9 Adjusted)
* Henrik Sedin & Steven Stamkos * Sedin is a very good player, but not top 60 worthy. Stamkos is an ATD if He can stay healthy.

Concurring on all accounts. I might end up dropping Lemaire a bit from where I had him from the start, but he's a very safe Top-4 ATM.

The said top-4 ? Colville, Keats, Lemaire and Lafontaine. (In alpha order).

4 of Foyston, Primeau, Carbonneau, Roenick and Sedin will make the reminder of my list (sorted by ancientness)
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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A bit more detail on Colville:

1936-37
Patrick (8-16-24) – Boucher (7-13-20) – Dillon (20-11-31)
Keeling (22-4-26) – Watson (11-17-28) – Murdoch (0-14-14)
Shibicky (14-8-22) – N. Colville (10-18-28) – M. Colville (7-12-19)

1937-38
Keeling (8-9-17) – Watson (7-25-32) – Hextall (17-4-21)
Shibicky (17-18-35) – N. Colville (17-19-36) – M. Colville (14-14-28)
Patrick (15-19-34) – Smith (14-23-37) – Dillon (21-18-39)

1938-39
Hiller (10-19-29) – Watson (15-22-37) – Hextall (20-15-35)
Shibicky (24-9-33) – N. Colville (18-19-37) – M. Colville (7-21-28)
Patrick (8-21-29) – Smith (21-20-41) – Dillon (12-15-27)

1939-40
Hiller (13-18-31) – Watson (24-15-39) – Hextall (24-15-39)
Shibicky (11-21-32) – N. Colville (19-19-38) – M. Colville (7-14-21)
MacDonald (15-13-28) – Smith (8-16-24) – Pike (8-9-17)

1940-41
Various – Watson (11-25-36) – Hextall (26-18-44)
Various – N. Colville (14-28-42) – M. Colville (14-17-31)
MacDonald (5-6-11) - Smith (14-11-25) - Pike (6-13-19)

1941-42
Patrick (32-22-54) – Watson (15-37-52) – Hextall (24-32-56)
Shibicky (20-14-34) – N. Colville (8-25-33) – M. Colville (14-16-30)
Kuntz (10-11-21) – Smith (10-24-34) – Warwick (16-17-33)
Pike (8-19-27)


With the exception of 1941-42, these lineups were all pretty well-established during each of Colville's first six seasons with the Rangers ('42 being a bit of a mess because of injuries and subsequent adjustments; this included Colville moving back to the blueline).

If I were to look at these lineups in a vacuum, there's no way I'd pick out Colville as being "the guy" for those teams. Likewise, reading over the media clippings from this period, Colville gets his fair share of praise but is not really singled out above the level of his teammates.

Yet here is the all-star voting for this period (simplified, because it's an unreadable mess in some seasons):

1936-37
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Dillon (7)

1937-38
C - Neil Colville (8), Smith C (1)
RW - Dillon (30)
LW - Patrick (10), Shibicky (2)

1938-39
C - Neil Colville (17), Smith C (2), Watson C (2)
RW - Dillon (2), Hextall (2), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (13)

1939-40
C - Neil Colville (20), Watson (1)
RW - Hextall (26), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (4), Patrick (1)

1940-41
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (22)
LW - Patrick (3)

1941-42
C - Watson (17), Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (30)
LW - Patrick (30)


It seems... odd to me that Colville got so much more recognition than Watson until the sixth season. Two theories spring to mind:

1) Colville was better than his numbers. He moved back to defense just before the war on a substitute basis, then full-time after the war. Clearly he knew how to operate outside of scoring points. Also, he was relatively balanced as a scorer and therefore may not have been as dependent on his linemates.

2) The Rangers' centers seemed awfully close to interchangeable during this period. Dillon and Hextall both skated with Watson, and those two RWs got the vast majority of AS votes on the team. It's possible that, given a group of interchangeable centers, Colville was typically the voters' top choice because he was perceived to be the guy putting up equal numbers with worse linemates.


I'm pretty confident that #1 is the correct interpretation, but I can't find much in the way of genuine verification that Colville was way better defensively than Watson. We know that Colville killed penalties, but in a novel attacking style that doesn't exactly speak to his defensive skill.

Did Watson suck defensively? Is there a source out there that speaks directly to Colville's defense as a forward?
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,720
17,620
A bit more detail on Colville:

1936-37
Patrick (8-16-24) – Boucher (7-13-20) – Dillon (20-11-31)
Keeling (22-4-26) – Watson (11-17-28) – Murdoch (0-14-14)
Shibicky (14-8-22) – N. Colville (10-18-28) – M. Colville (7-12-19)

1937-38
Keeling (8-9-17) – Watson (7-25-32) – Hextall (17-4-21)
Shibicky (17-18-35) – N. Colville (17-19-36) – M. Colville (14-14-28)
Patrick (15-19-34) – Smith (14-23-37) – Dillon (21-18-39)

1938-39
Hiller (10-19-29) – Watson (15-22-37) – Hextall (20-15-35)
Shibicky (24-9-33) – N. Colville (18-19-37) – M. Colville (7-21-28)
Patrick (8-21-29) – Smith (21-20-41) – Dillon (12-15-27)

1939-40
Hiller (13-18-31) – Watson (24-15-39) – Hextall (24-15-39)
Shibicky (11-21-32) – N. Colville (19-19-38) – M. Colville (7-14-21)
MacDonald (15-13-28) – Smith (8-16-24) – Pike (8-9-17)

1940-41
Various – Watson (11-25-36) – Hextall (26-18-44)
Various – N. Colville (14-28-42) – M. Colville (14-17-31)
MacDonald (5-6-11) - Smith (14-11-25) - Pike (6-13-19)

1941-42
Patrick (32-22-54) – Watson (15-37-52) – Hextall (24-32-56)
Shibicky (20-14-34) – N. Colville (8-25-33) – M. Colville (14-16-30)
Kuntz (10-11-21) – Smith (10-24-34) – Warwick (16-17-33)
Pike (8-19-27)


With the exception of 1941-42, these lineups were all pretty well-established during each of Colville's first six seasons with the Rangers ('42 being a bit of a mess because of injuries and subsequent adjustments; this included Colville moving back to the blueline).

If I were to look at these lineups in a vacuum, there's no way I'd pick out Colville as being "the guy" for those teams. Likewise, reading over the media clippings from this period, Colville gets his fair share of praise but is not really singled out above the level of his teammates.

Yet here is the all-star voting for this period (simplified, because it's an unreadable mess in some seasons):

1936-37
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Dillon (7)

1937-38
C - Neil Colville (8), Smith C (1)
RW - Dillon (30)
LW - Patrick (10), Shibicky (2)

1938-39
C - Neil Colville (17), Smith C (2), Watson C (2)
RW - Dillon (2), Hextall (2), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (13)

1939-40
C - Neil Colville (20), Watson (1)
RW - Hextall (26), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (4), Patrick (1)

1940-41
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (22)
LW - Patrick (3)

1941-42
C - Watson (17), Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (30)
LW - Patrick (30)


It seems... odd to me that Colville got so much more recognition than Watson until the sixth season. Two theories spring to mind:

1) Colville was better than his numbers. He moved back to defense just before the war on a substitute basis, then full-time after the war. Clearly he knew how to operate outside of scoring points. Also, he was relatively balanced as a scorer and therefore may not have been as dependent on his linemates.

2) The Rangers' centers seemed awfully close to interchangeable during this period. Dillon and Hextall both skated with Watson, and those two RWs got the vast majority of AS votes on the team. It's possible that, given a group of interchangeable centers, Colville was typically the voters' top choice because he was perceived to be the guy putting up equal numbers with worse linemates.


I'm pretty confident that #1 is the correct interpretation, but I can't find much in the way of genuine verification that Colville was way better defensively than Watson. We know that Colville killed penalties, but in a novel attacking style that doesn't exactly speak to his defensive skill.

Did Watson suck defensively? Is there a source out there that speaks directly to Colville's defense as a forward?

Watson doesn't have a rep of somebody who sucked defensively.

The other interesting take on Colville -- when considering AST voting, is he really more than 40 spots below Milt Schmidt ? That much below Cowley ? That much below Apps ?

Those are some of the centers Colville had to beat, and has beaten, for all-stars berths. Outscoring Milt Schmidt in the QPHL days has to be considered as well.
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,720
17,620
Then I'm left wondering what is the difference between Watson and Colville?

Well, according to end-of-season voting, its not THAT close, not to mention Colville did pretty good in end-of-season voting as well.

Like, the only year where Watson did better was when he centered Hextall to an Art Ross while getting Primeau-like nbers.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
86,622
143,990
Bojangles Parking Lot
Well, according to end-of-season voting, its not THAT close, not to mention Colville did pretty good in end-of-season voting as well.

This is what I mean, though. Colville's case is built largely on his AS record, but it's not clear to me exactly why his record is better than Watson's.

The only thing I can reckon is that he was the guy skating with slightly weaker wingers... but that seems like a shaky basis for AS votes that may ultimately lead to a top-60 spot.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,783
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Match-ups

A bit more detail on Colville:

1936-37
Patrick (8-16-24) – Boucher (7-13-20) – Dillon (20-11-31)
Keeling (22-4-26) – Watson (11-17-28) – Murdoch (0-14-14)
Shibicky (14-8-22) – N. Colville (10-18-28) – M. Colville (7-12-19)

1937-38
Keeling (8-9-17) – Watson (7-25-32) – Hextall (17-4-21)
Shibicky (17-18-35) – N. Colville (17-19-36) – M. Colville (14-14-28)
Patrick (15-19-34) – Smith (14-23-37) – Dillon (21-18-39)

1938-39
Hiller (10-19-29) – Watson (15-22-37) – Hextall (20-15-35)
Shibicky (24-9-33) – N. Colville (18-19-37) – M. Colville (7-21-28)
Patrick (8-21-29) – Smith (21-20-41) – Dillon (12-15-27)

1939-40
Hiller (13-18-31) – Watson (24-15-39) – Hextall (24-15-39)
Shibicky (11-21-32) – N. Colville (19-19-38) – M. Colville (7-14-21)
MacDonald (15-13-28) – Smith (8-16-24) – Pike (8-9-17)

1940-41
Various – Watson (11-25-36) – Hextall (26-18-44)
Various – N. Colville (14-28-42) – M. Colville (14-17-31)
MacDonald (5-6-11) - Smith (14-11-25) - Pike (6-13-19)

1941-42
Patrick (32-22-54) – Watson (15-37-52) – Hextall (24-32-56)
Shibicky (20-14-34) – N. Colville (8-25-33) – M. Colville (14-16-30)
Kuntz (10-11-21) – Smith (10-24-34) – Warwick (16-17-33)
Pike (8-19-27)


With the exception of 1941-42, these lineups were all pretty well-established during each of Colville's first six seasons with the Rangers ('42 being a bit of a mess because of injuries and subsequent adjustments; this included Colville moving back to the blueline).

If I were to look at these lineups in a vacuum, there's no way I'd pick out Colville as being "the guy" for those teams. Likewise, reading over the media clippings from this period, Colville gets his fair share of praise but is not really singled out above the level of his teammates.

Yet here is the all-star voting for this period (simplified, because it's an unreadable mess in some seasons):

1936-37
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Dillon (7)

1937-38
C - Neil Colville (8), Smith C (1)
RW - Dillon (30)
LW - Patrick (10), Shibicky (2)

1938-39
C - Neil Colville (17), Smith C (2), Watson C (2)
RW - Dillon (2), Hextall (2), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (13)

1939-40
C - Neil Colville (20), Watson (1)
RW - Hextall (26), Mac Colville (1)
LW - Shibicky (4), Patrick (1)

1940-41
C - Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (22)
LW - Patrick (3)

1941-42
C - Watson (17), Neil Colville (1)
RW - Hextall (30)
LW - Patrick (30)


It seems... odd to me that Colville got so much more recognition than Watson until the sixth season. Two theories spring to mind:

1) Colville was better than his numbers. He moved back to defense just before the war on a substitute basis, then full-time after the war. Clearly he knew how to operate outside of scoring points. Also, he was relatively balanced as a scorer and therefore may not have been as dependent on his linemates.

2) The Rangers' centers seemed awfully close to interchangeable during this period. Dillon and Hextall both skated with Watson, and those two RWs got the vast majority of AS votes on the team. It's possible that, given a group of interchangeable centers, Colville was typically the voters' top choice because he was perceived to be the guy putting up equal numbers with worse linemates.


I'm pretty confident that #1 is the correct interpretation, but I can't find much in the way of genuine verification that Colville was way better defensively than Watson. We know that Colville killed penalties, but in a novel attacking style that doesn't exactly speak to his defensive skill.

Did Watson suck defensively? Is there a source out there that speaks directly to Colville's defense as a forward?

Match-ups from the starting lineups would be revealing. Who was the opposing center - Apps, Cowley, Schmidt, etc for each NYR center?

Later, playing with the Canadiens during the 1943-44 season, Watson was used at RW - Lach, O'Connor, Fern Majeau(who?) and a bit of Ray Getliffe played center.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
86,622
143,990
Bojangles Parking Lot
Match-ups from the starting lineups would be revealing. Who was the opposing center - Apps, Cowley, Schmidt, etc for each NYR center?

Indeed, I wish we had a reliable way to tell. Start-of-game matchups are deceiving and there's really nothing else to go on, unless a writer chose to mention a particular matchup.
 

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