Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hardyvan123]

Third line center is a bit out of line. Plenty of teams with three elite centers once NHL rosters approached 15 or more skaters.

1947 Leafs - Apps, Kennedy, Bentley. Late thirties Rangers - Colville, Smith, Watson, Hurricanes with Staal, Francis, Brind'amour,Red Wings with Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, many others, even 4 Canadiens 1968-71 with Beliveau, Richard, Lemaire, Backstrom.

You raise the ATD. So what. History is the issue. Look at Carbonneau's historic merit. If you do not have a historic counter-argument leave fantasy out of it.

What exactly is his historic merit?

 

[MXD]

What exactly is his historic merit?

Do you realize you're arguing defense merits of Carbo, sometimes in very specific circumstances, with the two users who saw Carbonneau the most in the current group?

MOD

You just set up your foot on the ground and said "No Carbo". That's it, plain just it. Then find the rationale.

Get out.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Do you realize you're arguing defense merits of Carbo, sometimes in very specific circumstances, with the two users who saw Carbonneau the most in the current group?

MOD

You just set up your foot on the ground and said "No Carbo". That's it, plain just it. Then find the rationale.

Get out.

We aren't ranking the best defensive centers of all time here but rather the best 60 centers of all time.

It's almost impossible to fathom how any player who likely was never in any season considered a top 20 player (or heck probably forward ) in the world would have enough of a resume to be a top 60 center of all time isn't it?

The reason Carbs is a lock to not be in my top 8 is his resume, it's just really weak (overall) compared to every other player in this round.

We can directly measure the affect of any centers scoring goals or assisting on them, the defensive value and affect it has on games is harder to measure and separate say from a great goal tending performance.

I think the fact that there are a lot of good to very good 2 way centers not even available this round with much greater offensive skills (ie production) just empathizes the point.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well.....

The guys were named for guys this round, Colville, Brind'amour and Lemaire.

I would also add in Roenick who was a 200 foot player with 28 SH goals compared to Carbs 32 and Carbs played a hell of a lot more time on the PK over his career than Jeremy did.

The thing is that Roenick did a heck of alot more, ie was the best player on his team for a long period of time, better offense, both ES and PP

As for the 70's guy we have Don Luce and 80's Steve Kasper but those guys aren't up because they don't have the reputation that Carbs has, or the defensive teamwork structure or a guy name Roy as well in his 2 SC years in Montreal.

Well...Jeremy Roenick defensively or on the PK. 1992 SC Finals, Mario Lermieux scored 3 PPG in 4 games against the Hawks. With Belfour in nets and Chris Chelios on defense. Against Carbonneau in 17 games, Mario Lemieux scored 0PPG, Chelios played with the Canadiens a good part of the time. So unless Chelios really deteriorated, Carbonneau was a huge difference maker.

Don Luce, good defensively on a small, home rink in Buffalo.

Steve Kasper, had potential until a knee injury made him very good.As is a rare Selke winner with a negative plus/minus.

 

[MXD]

Because (someone) completely polluted the discussion around Guy Carbonneau, I think we'll have to change topic...

 

[Hardyvan123]

Well...Jeremy Roenick defensively or on the PK. 1992 SC Finals, Mario Lermieux scored 3 PPG in 4 games against the Hawks. With Belfour in nets and Chris Chelios on defense. Against Carbonneau in 17 games, Mario Lemieux scored 0PPG, Chelios played with the Canadiens a good part of the time. So unless Chelios really deteriorated, Carbonneau was a huge difference maker.

We are taking careers not just against a team here or team there and is Chelios the only factor?

It's great that the Habs had great success against the Pens with Mario in the lineup but does that really tell us very much about how Roenick and Carbs stack up overall all time?

That's why looking at the entire picture is important.

Don Luce, good defensively on a small, home rink in Buffalo.

well home ice is still a much larger sample than against one team and his offense is also much better as well, just doesn't have the reputation though.

Steve Kasper, had potential until a knee injury made him very good.As is a rare Selke winner with a negative plus/minus.

Still he played in 821 games and the difference in his game defensively isn't far from Carbo when we look at it with the available data here.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Because (someone) completely polluted the discussion around Guy Carbonneau, I think we'll have to change topic...

We are here to discuss the merits for and against the players in this round right?

If one doesn't think discussion is necessary then what is the point really?

I understand that we have different views on Carbo but it's not like I'm arguing that he is out because I don't like the guy.

There are legitimate reasons for his not being worthy for this list and those points should be discussed right?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well.....

We are taking careers not just against a team here or team there and is Chelios the only factor?

It's great that the Habs had great success against the Pens with Mario in the lineup but does that really tell us very much about how Roenick and Carbs stack up overall all time?

That's why looking at the entire picture is important.



well home ice is still a much larger sample than against one team and his offense is also much better as well, just doesn't have the reputation though.



Still he played in 821 games and the difference in his game defensively isn't far from Carbo when we look at it with the available data here.

Well present the entire picture for Roenick or any other player in this vote.

As for the limited 4 game playoff sample from 1992, no more is need since expanding the sample will not cancel or erase the three PP goals that Lemieux already scored against Chicago and Roenick.

As for Steve Kasper, the -56 is a serious red flag. Carbonneau is +186.
Swing of 242 ES goals requires some serious and credible explanations at your end.

Home ice is neutralized by the away ice in an NHL schedule. Carbonneau played Lemieux with equal efficiency home or away. Likewise Gretzky and other opponents. Luce did not.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

a few questions about carbonneau:

- the mythology, and my 20 year old old memories, suggest that it was muller's line matched up against gretzky in game one, then carbo taking the reins in games 2-5. is that correct?

also, the kings' PP won game 1, but was almost completely shut down the rest of the way. presumably carbo and keane would have been the guys out there against the gretzky/robitaille/blake unit. was game 1 just a blip for the habs PP? or was this also a case of muller off/carbo on in games 2-5?

- re: 3rd line center status, a guy like joel otto on the '89 was nominally the 3rd line center, but actually played almost as much as the first line center doug gilmour and more than nieuwendyk, the second line center. would this also be the case with carbonneau in his late 80s/early 90s peak?

i ask especially because between smith, corson, and skrudland all were very good defensively, though none of them were in carbo's league. seems like in terms of line-matching against offensive stars, at least in the regular season, you probably wouldn't need to hard match carbo on ron francis or pierre turgeon or young sakic/older stastny or any of the other adams division star centers because you're not exactly going to get ventilated when the other three guys are out there. would be different, i imagine, in the early 90s when it's denis savard and stephan lebeau. that's when carbo's stats drop, which might make sense given the additional defensive responsibilities he'd need to take on.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Well...Jeremy Roenick defensively or on the PK. 1992 SC Finals, Mario Lermieux scored 3 PPG in 4 games against the Hawks. With Belfour in nets and Chris Chelios on defense. Against Carbonneau in 17 games, Mario Lemieux scored 0PPG, Chelios played with the Canadiens a good part of the time. So unless Chelios really deteriorated, Carbonneau was a huge difference maker.

Don Luce, good defensively on a small, home rink in Buffalo.

Steve Kasper, had potential until a knee injury made him very good.As is a rare Selke winner with a negative plus/minus.

Well present the entire picture for Roenick or any other player in this vote.

As for the limited 4 game playoff sample from 1992, no more is need since expanding the sample will not cancel or erase the three PP goals that Lemieux already scored against Chicago and Roenick.

As for Steve Kasper, the -56 is a serious red flag. Carbonneau is +186.
Swing of 242 ES goals requires some serious and credible explanations at your end.

Home ice is neutralized by the away ice in an NHL schedule. Carbonneau played Lemieux with equal efficiency home or away. Likewise Gretzky and other opponents. Luce did not.

just to be exact about this, i'd imagine those PP goals in the '92 finals wouldn't been scored against roenick. the 1st PK unit would have been sutter/graham right?

which does tell us something-- that roenick, while being a competent two-way scoring center, wasn't a do-it-all doug gilmour type who would take on tough defensive matchups, at least not on that team. but i don't think we can take those three mario PP goals seriously as a carbonneau vs. roenick on the PK comparison because roenick's performance isn't (likely) operative here.

I think the point was to have a baseline for how Lemieux fared against the Canadiens without Carbonneau to see how much of an impact he specifically had. You mentioned Carbonneau missed 2 games against Lemieux, and while that's a very small sample it'd be a nice feather in Guy's cap if Lemieux scored at a much higher rate than when Carbonneau was playing.

Insignificant sample size...

Gretzky put up 4 points in game 1 of SCF 1993 when not match against Carbo.

small sample size or not, if anyone has that info i think we'd rather know it than not know it, right?

 

[MXD]

a few questions about carbonneau:

- the mythology, and my 20 year old old memories, suggest that it was muller's line matched up against gretzky in game one, then carbo taking the reins in games 2-5. is that correct?

also, the kings' PP won game 1, but was almost completely shut down the rest of the way. presumably carbo and keane would have been the guys out there against the gretzky/robitaille/blake unit. was game 1 just a blip for the habs PP? or was this also a case of muller off/carbo on in games 2-5?

- re: 3rd line center status, a guy like joel otto on the '89 was nominally the 3rd line center, but actually played almost as much as the first line center doug gilmour and more than nieuwendyk, the second line center. would this also be the case with carbonneau in his late 80s/early 90s peak?

i ask especially because between smith, corson, and skrudland all were very good defensively, though none of them were in carbo's league. seems like in terms of line-matching against offensive stars, at least in the regular season, you probably wouldn't need to hard match carbo on ron francis or pierre turgeon or young sakic/older stastny or any of the other adams division star centers because you're not exactly going to get ventilated when the other three guys are out there. would be different, i imagine, in the early 90s when it's denis savard and stephan lebeau. that's when carbo's stats drop, which might make sense given the additional defensive responsibilities he'd need to take on.

Right on facts, inferences and opinions.

No way to tell exactly who was on the PK in game 1 when the goals occurred. Might have been Carbo. Might have not. Kings actually scored 2 PP goals.

 

[tarheelhockey]

No way to tell exactly who was on the PK in game 1 when the goals occurred. Might have been Carbo. Might have not. Kings actually scored 2 PP goals.

Surely the video is on YouTube.


Edit: Indeed it is. Carbonneau was on the ice for both of the Kings' PP goals.

 

[quoipourquoi]

the mythology, and my 20 year old old memories, suggest that it was muller's line matched up against gretzky in game one, then carbo taking the reins in games 2-5. is that correct?

Here you go:

The Montreal Canadiens know what has to be done to stop Wayne Gretzky.

They just haven't yet agreed on who should do it.

Guy Carbonneau said yesterday he wants the biggest share of the job. In the first game of the Stanley Cup final, that job went to Kirk Muller's line and Gretzky had a hand in every Los Angeles Kings goal.

Carbonneau planned to talk to coach Jacques Demers about increasing his icetime against Gretzky. The Montreal forward has won three Frank J. Selke trophies as the best defensive forward in the National Hockey League, the latest coming last season.

"Yeah, I want to talk to (coach) Jacques (Demers) about that," Carbonneau said. "I wish I could have played a bit more against him. That has been my life. I like the challenge."

That isn't a problem with Muller, but Demers said he is not likely to change the workload, although he will consider it.

"Guy Carbonneau is a smart player," Muller said. "If he feels that's a better system for the team then I'm sure it will be considered."

 

[Canadiens1958]

ES vs PK

a few questions about carbonneau:

- the mythology, and my 20 year old old memories, suggest that it was muller's line matched up against gretzky in game one, then carbo taking the reins in games 2-5. is that correct?

also, the kings' PP won game 1, but was almost completely shut down the rest of the way. presumably carbo and keane would have been the guys out there against the gretzky/robitaille/blake unit. was game 1 just a blip for the habs PP? or was this also a case of muller off/carbo on in games 2-5?

- re: 3rd line center status, a guy like joel otto on the '89 was nominally the 3rd line center, but actually played almost as much as the first line center doug gilmour and more than nieuwendyk, the second line center. would this also be the case with carbonneau in his late 80s/early 90s peak?

i ask especially because between smith, corson, and skrudland all were very good defensively, though none of them were in carbo's league. seems like in terms of line-matching against offensive stars, at least in the regular season, you probably wouldn't need to hard match carbo on ron francis or pierre turgeon or young sakic/older stastny or any of the other adams division star centers because you're not exactly going to get ventilated when the other three guys are out there. would be different, i imagine, in the early 90s when it's denis savard and stephan lebeau. that's when carbo's stats drop, which might make sense given the additional defensive responsibilities he'd need to take on.

There were advantages to facing the Gretzky line at ES and on the PP. Specifically everything that a checking line establishes at ES carries over to the PK. Carbonneau was a RHS, Muller a LHS.In this situation that helped access to Gretzky's stick side.

Certain coaches will structure PP units from the two top lines or even have a PP specialist. This protects the PP since the resulting forward line plays differently then the regular ES line.Harder for the opponents PK to sustain tendencies, reads, etc from ES.

Bobby Smith was no longer with the Canadiens. Vincent Damphousse also played center as did Paul Di Pietro. Di Pietro allowed Muller and Damphousse to slip over to LW as needed if the center Di Pietro faced was not a threat offensively.

During the regular season a team does not have the practice time to set and adjust opposition specific defenses. Playoffs - up to seven consecutive games this is doable.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Some of this is fluff, so take it only for what it's worth. But these are contemporary opinions and anecdotes on Carbonneau from various stages of his career.

First Carbonneau wore [out] Barry Pederson of Boston for three games before he wore out Peter (R.I.P.) Stastny of Quebec in six. Now Bryan Trottier, the New York Islanders' two-way centre supreme, is stuffed, mounted, and put in Carbonneau's trophy case. Well, for one night anyway.

On a who's who of quality centres in the league, only Wayne What's his name is left.
...
But now that he has been thrown in mano-mano against Pederson, whom he held goalless, and Stastny, from whom he coaxed a critical elbowing penalty in the waning moments of a one-goal game to nullify a Quebec power play, and Trottier, whom he whipped 13-3 in faceoffs, he has been the best of some awfully good Canadiens.
...
And when, Larry Robinson was asked, was the last time you have seen a centre play two-way hockey that well for that long?

"Jacques Lemaire," said Robinson. "Jacques Lemaire in the playoffs. Jacques wasn't the same type of player as Guy, but he turned in some incredible playoff games. Guy should be honored to be considered in the same company."

Carbonneau, in his own laconic way, is all class, one of the five best centers in the NHL, and without question the most unsung.

He, not Peter Stastny, should have been picked for Team Canada last summer.
...
He is a tireless, unrelenting checker who never gives up, and nobody's better at breaking out of his own end on a three-on-two or a two-on-one.

In many ways, he reminds me of Henri Richard, one of those guys who, in the bad times, is always there in the dressing room, and giving you the right stuff, right on the line.

But Carbonneau... is rising into a class by himself as a defensive specialist.

What's more, he doesn't have much competition for the [Selke], given the increasingly offensive style of play in the league.

Carbonneau has seldom played a bad game since he was re-united on a line with Gainey and Chris Nilan Nov. 29 in Buffalo. Since then, coach Jean Perron has used the line against the opposition's top offensive trio, as former coach Jacques Lemaire did last year. It is a role in which Carbonneau excels.

At the start of this season, Perron had put Carbonneau on a line with Ryan Walter and Kjell Dahlin, and told the Sept Iles native he wanted him to play a more offensive style. Carbonneau seemed out of place, confused; indeed, the entire team, through their poor 4-6-0 start, seemed confused.

Mario Tremblay agrees that the outcome of the Canadiens-Hartford Adams Division final is linked with how well the Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Chris Nilan line contains the Whalers' top line of Kevin Dineen, Ron Francis and John Anderson.
...
"I can't think of all the really good defensive lines in the league," said Tremblay yesterday, "but Gainey, Carbonneau and Nilan have to be in the top three.

"What makes the line even better," he said, "is that they're so good defensively, but they can win games for you with a big goal."

On the flip side, [Pat] Burns wanted Carbonneau to produce a bit more. Carbonneau... was stunned: He had made his reputation and living on defense.

Burns was insistent, noting he'd have no problem benching Carbonneau if he disobeyed. Carbonneau gave in and scored 26 goals, a record for his seven-year career.

Montreal wouldn't mind moving either Guy Carbonneau or Brian Skrudland. The two reliable defensive centres have fallen on hard times because of injuries, but both carry pretty hefty salaries. Skrudland is making $650,000 and Carbonneau $700,000. Carbonneau has tendinitis in one knee and Skrudland is slowed by a variety of ailments. Either one could probably be had for future considerations.

Carbonneau specifically requested the assignment against Gretzky. Montreal coach Jacques Demers agreed, sending him in for 16 shifts.

"When he was out there against me, he did a great job," Gretzky said.

Kirk Muller chased Gretzky on another 8 shifts.

And how. The final statistical sheet on Carbonneau reads three goals and three assists in 20 games. But, as anyone who has followed his 11-year career realizes, Carbonneau's worth to the Canadiens goes beyond points.

He is a supreme shot-blocker and penalty-killing specialist but struggled during the season, a year in which he played 61 games and was held to only four goals and 17 points. It was the least number of games Carbonneau has played in one season, following his recurring knee problems which alone sidelined him for 20 games.

Carbonneau will visit a doctor in the coming days and said off- season knee surgery is likely.

All aspects of Carbonneau's game excelled during the post-season. He was a vital cog on the Canadiens' penalty-killing unit, one which worked at an efficiency rate of almost 85 per cent. To put that into perspective, St. Louis led the NHL in penalty-killing during the regular season at 83.7 per cent. The Canadiens were 10th over-all at 82 per cent.

Carbonneau blocked shots and blanketed some of the league's premier centres throughout the playoffs, especially during the final when he gave the Kings' Wayne Gretzky fits during the last four games. Gretzky was held to one shot in the second game and none in the fifth.

It was obvious during the Canadiens' seven-game playoff loss to the Boston Bruins last April, when the club gave up its Stanley Cup crown almost without a whimper, that relations between captain Carbo and the Habs were strained.

Carbonneau dared to point out that the Canadiens were more than the sum of Patrick Roy's talents, which was absolutely true. They just weren't enough more to take out Boston last spring.

Carbonneau and Kirk Muller played their hearts out during the Boston series while players much younger than the captain went AWOL. If the Habs were dumping players who looked disinterested during that playoff series, they'd be getting rid of Gilbert Dionne and Patrice Brisebois and maybe even Eric Desjardins, though Desjardins was playing hurt.

Sentiments ranged from shock to utter incredulity from Guy Carbonneau's former teammates Saturday upon learning of the Canadiens veteran captain's trade to St. Louis for Jim Montgomery.

"They made a mistake, right-winger Mike Keane said from his Winnipeg home. "We need him.

"I don't want to get involved in management's side, but my personal opinion, as a friend and a guy who played with Guy for six years, I think the trade was a mistake.
...
Brian Bellows was equally shocked. He applauded new Blues coach Mike Keenan, who traditionally has surrounded himself with veteran players, for making an excellent acquisition.

"It's a shocker when anyone is traded, especially Carbo, said Bellows. "He was a steadying influence, a link to past Canadiens teams and the style they played.

"I know I can't score 20 goals anymore (as he routinely did in his early years), but I just want to do something else, and if that something is blocking shots and working hard and showing the way for the young guys, then that's what I have to do."

Carbonneau did plenty of things that did not show up in the scoring summary but certainly were critical to the Stars' 2-1 victory over the Buffalo Sabres in Game Three Saturday night.

Despite being Dallas' oldest player, he was on the ice for 19 minutes, which ranked fifth among the team's skaters. He tied for the club lead by having three of the Stars' 19 blocked shots (which was seven shots more than goaltender Ed Belfour had to face). Carbonneau won a game-high 17 faceoffs. And he and 38-year-old defenseman Craig Ludwig saw the lion's share of work in the Stars' killing of eight power plays, including two five-on-three disadvantages.

Maybe it's an indictment on the Dallas Stars that their best forward this season has been a 39-year-old center who occasionally loses feeling in his hands.
...
He's unselfish, willing to spend his maybe his last season helping a player like [Blake] Sloan develop. He's a yeoman, playing a defensive role as he goes against other teams' top lines night after night. He has become Dallas' best player by doing what he does best. Working hard, being consistent and never giving less than everything he has.

He's doing it in pain, playing with cervical stenosis... An unusually narrow spinal cord causes him to lose feeling in his hands.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Nighbor shut down a lot more than Joe Malone. And he's generally given more credit for Ottawa's defensive performance than Clint Benedict (who this board decided was slightly below Georges Vezina).

Anyway, is there anyone who actually disagrees with the idea that Carbonneau, Nighbor, and Clarke are the 3 best defensive centers of all-time in any order? I know Sturminator mentioned Pit Lepine as comparable to Carbonneau, but Lepine seems to have been considered not in Nighbor's class defensively.

All that said...

Who would you rather have as the 3rd line center on your team - a Brind'amour, Colville, Lemaire type? Or Carbonneau?

I'm sure there is.

I'd say Toews and Bergeron are the equals of Carbonneau. And since no one actually saw Nighbor play it would be difficult to get a consensus that he was better than everyone else. Maybe they are the most famous defensive centers, but I wouldn't consider them hands-down the best 3 ever.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm sure there is.

I'd say Toews and Bergeron are the equals of Carbonneau. And since no one actually saw Nighbor play it would be difficult to get a consensus that he was better than everyone else. Maybe they are the most famous defensive centers, but I wouldn't consider them hands-down the best 3 ever.

i'm assuming that he means carbonneau's career defensive value not peak. but even that said, i don't think bergeron is as good defensively as carbonneau was, and toews not even close.

but to your point, i think guys like datsyuk and keon are probably in the running and if nothing else cast doubt on a definitive top three of nighbor, clarke, and carbo.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Well present the entire picture for Roenick or any other player in this vote.

I actually just did a quick overview where he was the #1 postion player (and definetly forward) on his team for a conseiderable elngth of time and had a much (much much) better offesnive peak, prime career ES, PP, total than Carbs did.

As for the limited 4 game playoff sample from 1992, no more is need since expanding the sample will not cancel or erase the three PP goals that Lemieux already scored against Chicago and Roenick.

Both guys have well over 1000 game samples or resumes to separate something that is really erratic over such a small sample and trying to indicate that it's something that defines his career is a stretch.

[/QUOTE]As for Steve Kasper, the -56 is a serious red flag. Carbonneau is +186.
Swing of 242 ES goals requires some serious and credible explanations at your end.[/QUOTE]

It's probably quite simply as looking at each player compared to their team context, guy simply played with a lot of guys with good plus/minus.

His plus/minus in that legendary 93 SC season really sticks out as a sore point on his resume, within that team context don't you think?

61 GP and a minus 9, no other full time player was a minus and a lot of them played an extra 21 games with Guy having any impact on that team.

Home ice is neutralized by the away ice in an NHL schedule. Carbonneau played Lemieux with equal efficiency home or away. Likewise Gretzky and other opponents. Luce did not.

Well that's just plain cherry picking isn't it and you are leading to what we really should be looking at, whole seasons, careers and performances in all situations.

If one feels that his 93 playoffs was indicative of his value through his career, that's one thing because all the available evidence we have doesn't support that feeling.

for example I thought Feds was being under rated here and provided some support for that position and some ideas on why he was over rated, for Carbs there seems to be a "well I saw him more than you and he was really that good" which isn't shared by all or most of the viewers here and certainly there has been little to no statistical evidence provided.

I actually provided some stats and an argument about his top 2 position player status in the 93 playoffs but it seems that type of discussion is seen as "corruptive" now?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i'm assuming that he means carbonneau's career defensive value not peak. but even that said, i don't think bergeron is as good defensively as carbonneau was, and toews not even close.

but to your point, i think guys like datsyuk and keon are probably in the running and if nothing else cast doubt on a definitive top three of nighbor, clarke, and carbo.

Datsyuk and Keon both had defensive weaknesss (the ability to go head to head against a center who was physically stronger than them - Beliveau and Crosby in particular). I never heard of Nighbor, Clarke, or Carbo having a defensive weakness.

 

[MXD]

Datsyuk and Keon both had defensive weaknesss (the ability to go head to head against a center who was physically stronger than them - Beliveau and Crosby in particular). I never heard of Nighbor, Clarke, or Carbo having a defensive weakness.

And Carbo had a huge strength -- shot blocking. Nobody was blocking shots like he did back then. Especially not forwards.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Some of this is fluff, so take it only for what it's worth. But these are contemporary opinions and anecdotes on Carbonneau from various stages of his career.

Made for some interesting reading, thank you.

I'm a little surprised at some of the vociferous arguments in his favor though. He might have been the best 3rd line center of his era, good enough to be a strong 2nd line C in some of his best offensive years, but there's many 1st line centers still available who were extremely good in their roles as well, and played well-rounded games in doing so. In terms of adaptability, he lags behind other candidates. It's been shown that a team could be successful with a Jacques Lemaire or Rod Brind'Amour taking on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line responsibilities. Could a team be successful with Carbonneau as their 1st line center? The evidence for that seems scant.

 

[MXD]

Made for some interesting reading, thank you.

I'm a little surprised at some of the vociferous arguments in his favor though. He might have been the best 3rd line center of his era, good enough to be a strong 2nd line C in some of his best offensive years, but there's many 1st line centers still available who were extremely good in their roles as well, and played well-rounded games in doing so. In terms of adaptability, he lags behind other candidates. It's been shown that a team could be successful with a Jacques Lemaire or Rod Brind'Amour taking on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line responsibilities. Could a team be successful with Carbonneau as their 1st line center? The evidence for that seems scant.

There was wayyyy too much trash on Carbonneau, and I couldn't stay idle before it.

The only reason why Carbo wasn't the best 3td line center was because he typically got 2nd line minutes. I'm not sure that's enough for our purposes, though.

 

[MXD]

I'm sure there is.

I'd say Toews and Bergeron are the equals of Carbonneau. And since no one actually saw Nighbor play it would be difficult to get a consensus that he was better than everyone else. Maybe they are the most famous defensive centers, but I wouldn't consider them hands-down the best 3 ever.

Bergeron isn't as good as Carbonneau defensively. Still, in some years, if I do the same exercise, I'll probably had Berger on ahead of Carbo.

I did have Bergeron in my Top-80. 71st, I think. And I'd have him over a few guys currently up for voting.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

There was wayyyy too much trash on Carbonneau, and I couldn't stay idle before it.

The only reason why Carbo wasn't the best 3td line center was because he typically got 2nd line minutes. I'm not sure that's enough for our purposes, though.

The same could be said of a Lemaire or Brind'Amour, maybe Nieuwendyk, probably other candidates as well. I don't see him having much of an argument against those first two in particular. He never showed he could carry the mail like they did as a 1st line center, but they showed themselves as versatile enough that you would feel comfortable placing them in Carbonneau's role if the situation called for it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Time on Ice

Time on ice is a recent stat, prior to 1998 we have to rely on estimates.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/carbogu01.html

Carbonneau as a situational center the last two years of his career logged 16-17 minutes in the playoffs, slightly less during the regular season.

Patrice Bergeron, prime is in the 19:30-19:45 range.

Prime Carbonneau assigned key #1 centers - Gretzky, Lemieux, etc #1 PK, end of game situations would have been in the 20-22 minute range.