Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[pluppe]

Mischaracterizing my argument will get you nowhere. I said that I thought Hasek was capable of being a solid NHL starter at 21, a far cry from his peak. In my personal opinion, peak Hasek would have easily beaten out Jimmy Waite in Chicago, and he would have dominated the minor leagues when he was sent down.

I´m sorry if you feel I mischaracterizing your argument. It was not my intention. Put it this way. I think that if Hasek was born in Canada his NHL Win/Lose stats would not change these numbers in a negative direction, what do you think if you took a wild guess.

I also showed that the numbers are bascally the same when eliminating the others pre 27 years.

Hasek's GAA vs his backups is one of the strongest arguments in his favor, IMO. It's what finally convinced me (quite a few years back) that he had the best regular season peak of the modern era (I've always been a save % skeptic, though I've come around somewhat on that recently). But the quality of the backups does matter (Roy had great backups in Montreal), as do the matchups.

Sure there are complicating factors but those usually even out and when you see this kind of separation from all others it´s a good bet you are witnessing something special.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ken Dryden - The Straw...

Comments, implied and direct that Ken Dryden benefited the most from team support are interesting but without support and merit.

Ken Dryden and the Canadiens during his short career is the best example of perfect synergy between a team and a goalie. Ken Dryden was the straw that stirred the drink.

Ken Dryden was a big goalie 6' 4" / 205 lbs. The first NHL goalie to actually play big. When Dryden exploded out of his stance, moved in any way he did so without giving away his natural size advantage. Other contemporaries - Gary Smith, Cesare Maniago were big men but when they exploded or moved gave away their natural size advantage. Similar to a butterfly goalie sitting back on his haunches instead of the thighs and torso staying perpendicular to the ice - Patrick Roy's edge.

1971 Canadiens going into the playoffs knew they were playing the Bruins had 2 0f their last 3 RS games against the Bruins. They had to choose between Vachon, Myre and Dryden as the playoff starting goalie. Vachon played at home and lost to the Bruins 6-3, 29/35. Myre played in Boston losing 7-2, 37/44. Dryden played game 1 losing 3-1. 39/42. The rest is history. Myre and Vachon became after thoughts to be moved.

Why? A big goalie that plays big changes the horizontal and vertical angles to the defending teams advantage. More critical in the smaller Boston Garden. More resilient to crashing the net, a big goalie also forces forwards further away from the net to find favourable shooting angles, this shortens the gap between the offensive forwards and defensemen forcing them wide or making it easier to defend in the slot. Since the forwards move further from the net, they are less effective screens.

In 1971 the Canadiens had three healthy defensemen 6' or bigger, Lapointe, Harper, Laperriere, Tremblay was 5'11" and experienced forwards to neutralize the high slot to the blue line. Very strong results followed.

After 1971, Sam Pollock built his teams to be in synergy with Ken Dryden. The key defence additions were big - Larry Robinson, Bill Nyrop, Brian Engblom, Rod Langway. Bob Gainey was big - LW, vital to shut down the RW snipers that dominated the later 1970's.

Other teams tried to find their own Ken Dryden, John Davidson and others followed. Poor imitations regardless. When the equipment revolution happened, teams tried to find pseudo Dryden's the Michelin Men of hockey. Only big goalie that was able to match Ken Dryden was/is Martin Brodeur - better puckhandler, longevity but a bit short on team success. Same perfect reciprocal synergy between team and goalie.

What the back-ups did in each case does not matter unless they were also big goalies.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Quality Backups

But the quality of the backups does matter (Roy had great backups in Montreal), as do the matchups (most seasons, Brodeur only sat out against the very worst teams in the league).

May have to revise here.

Roy's best back-ups in Montreal were Brian Hayward,Steve Penney, Rollie Melanson and Ron Tugnutt. Last two were very short term. The rest were rather forgettable. Some became bottom tier Quebec semi pro goalies.

In Buffallo Dominik Hasek had backups like Grant Fuhr, Daren Puppa, Martin Biron, Steve Shields, Andrei Trefilov - Olympic and WHC team member, Dwayne Roloson.

Martin Brodeur had Hedberg, Clemmenson,Schwab, Vanbiesbrouck, Dunham, Terrari.

New Jersey did the best job of picking appropritae backups. Hasek had the best in Buffalo, Roy the weakest in Montreal.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

May have to revise here.

Roy's best back-ups in Montreal were Brian Hayward,Steve Penney, Rollie Melanson and Ron Tugnutt. Last two were very short term. The rest were rather forgettable. Some became bottom tier Quebec semi pro goalies.

In Buffallo Dominik Hasek had backups like Grant Fuhr, Daren Puppa, Martin Biron, Steve Shields, Andrei Trefilov - Olympic and WHC team member, Dwayne Roloson.

Martin Brodeur had Hedberg, Clemmenson,Schwab, Vanbiesbrouck, Dunham, Terrari.

New Jersey did the best job of picking appropritae backups. Hasek had the best in Buffalo, Roy the weakest in Montreal.

Well, let's get this right. Hasek was one of Fuhr's (some might prefer to say Puppa's, I guess) backups in '92/93 (I'm sure they had been banking on Puppa developing further/faster than he did after his '89/90 season), and outright stole that job from him the next year by blowing Fuhr's numbers out of the water. 0.050 difference in SV%, and almost 2 GAA in difference. If you're strong in your convictions that Fuhr's level of play "contributed to Hasek having it the best", then you must be absolutely amazed by what Hasek did in his first year as an NHL starter behind the exact same team in '93/94. Granted (no pun intended), Fuhr ran into a few injuries that year, I think, but they won the Jennings despite Fuhr's 3.68 GAA over 32 games, lol.

On top of that, though, would be the problem of Rob Stauber "outplaying" Fuhr in '94/95 (after the trade, obviously) behind that same team again (even bigger statistical divide between them and Hasek that year), and both being shipped out by the Sabres at the end of that season.

So Biron and Shields are the only ones really worth mentioning (imo), and Biron wasn't even a real consideration until Hasek's 2nd last season as a Sabre. Fuhr was a name in the end, and not much else. Trefilov was possibly one of the worst goalies to ever play more than 10 games in the NHL. Roloson, for that matter, was about 2 or 3 years away from being relevant in any way, as it turned out.

More to the point though, I suppose, is that at least Montreal had Hayward's best years. Same could almost be said of Tugnutt, who hit his peak in Ottawa right after his Montreal days. And Doug Soetaert played more games in the Patrick Roy era than Steve Penney, btw. You forgot to mention him... not that it makes a difference, lol. Melanson really was bad for a long time, but surprisingly Roy didn't absolutely statistically trounce his 9 games as a Hab (~0.030 diff. in SV%, 0.3 GAA). Heck, Melanson even earned 2 of his career 6 shutouts in those 9 games behind those '91/92 Habs.

In any event, just looking at your list, I'd say Brodeur had it the best based on Terreri alone. They also got some of Schwab's and Clemmensen's best hockey though, among those you mentioned. Add Beezer and Hedberg to the list of geriatrics who enjoyed statistical success behind the Devils of the (lengthy) Brodeur era for some interesting context.

 

[Killion]

Ken Dryden and the Canadiens during his short career is the best example of perfect synergy between a team and a goalie. Ken Dryden was the straw that stirred the drink.

... well, just a minute here C58. Dryden was handed the starting role when management in Montreal messed up, brought up from the Voyageurs by way of Cornell, a complete outlier who's stunning performance in 71 was as surprising to them as it was to the rest of the hockey world. Accidental Tourist. Right guy, right place, right time. Montreal' lucked out, yet your suggesting it was by conscious telegraphed design, thought & foresight.

Ken Dryden as a Junior in Toronto played B level through his amateur & Major Junior eligibility years, opting for the Road Less Travelled at that time. Over-looked or dismissed if studied by Toronto's hockey intelligentsia. To further suggest that Pollock et al saw that long train coming is revisionist, as Montreal for eons knew exactly what they were doing in terms of both of the identification & grooming of talent.

Now, admittedly, the identification of truly gifted goaltending talent was somewhat prehistoric, with often times what one might consider sub-par players like Bower and others only proving their mettle through actual performance, coming up the "hard way", seems to me your ascribing more "savvy" & smarts to Pollock et al then what actually went down. A happenstance straw drawn by a Waitress who accidentally shoved it in the glass without genuflection or thought. Just happened. Luck of the draw.

You'll have to do better than that my friend.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Terry Sawchuk - Post 1957

At the start of the 1957-58 seaon Terry Sawchuk returned to the NHL and the Detroit Red Wings, in a trade for John Bucyk:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/sawchte01.html

By the start of the 1957-58 season, Jack Adams had gutted the great early fifties team leaving a small core of elite NHL players - Gordie Howe, Alex Delvecchio, Norm Ullman up front, Marcel Pronovost, Red Kelly - declining on defence and Terry Sawchuk back in goal. The rest were 3rd liners bumped up a notch and recycled fringers.Warren Godfrey as the 3rd dman was probably the best of the lot and he was 4th or 5th dman quality on the other teams. Kelly was traded in 1960, replaced by Bill Gadsby in 1961. Thru 1964, the team competed and amazingly made 3 SC Finals,while missing the playoffs twice.

They upset Toronto in 1961 - late season injuries to Armstrong and Bower had weakened the Leafs going into the playoffs - Maniago playing two games, while Sawchuk was hot in the last four games, 1 goal -PP allowed in games 3 and 4, and upset the Hawks in 1963 and 1964 after losing to the same Hawks in the 1961 SC Final.

The Hawks / Wings confrontations would come down to two battles.
The ability of the Hawk defensemen to handle Gordie Howe. Big 1961 version did, lite 1963,1964 version did not. And Sawchuk outplaying Glenn Hall. If the Chicago defense could handle Howe, Sawchuk would not outplay Hall. Wings did not have the talent or depth best the Leafs.

1964-65 season Sawchuk joined the SC Champion Leafs, forming a an elite tandem with Johnny Bower when managed properly with help from a third goalie - Bruce Gamble during the regular season. The team was to old to repeat until the 1966-67 season when a youth infusion - Pappin, Stemkowski, Ellis,Walton plus an old Marcel Pronovost who reolaced Brewer the Leafs won their last SC.

Solid defensive play - Keon at center and a big, experienced defence allowed Sawchuk with help from Bower to outplay Hall/Dejprdy and Worsley/Vachon. Sawchuk last hurrah. Post expansion played the trusty old veteran backup role until his untimely demise.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Vachon and Myre

... well, just a minute here C58. Dryden was handed the starting role when management in Montreal messed up, brought up from the Voyageurs by way of Cornell, a complete outlier who's stunning performance in 71 was as surprising to them as it was to the rest of the hockey world. Accidental Tourist. Right guy, right place, right time. Montreal' lucked out, yet your suggesting it was by conscious telegraphed design, thought & foresight.

Ken Dryden as a Junior in Toronto played B level through his amateur & Major Junior eligibility years, opting for the Road Less Travelled at that time. Over-looked or dismissed if studied by Toronto's hockey intelligentsia. To further suggest that Pollock et al saw that long train coming is revisionist, as Montreal for eons knew exactly what they were doing in terms of both of the identification & grooming of talent.

Now, admittedly, the identification of truly gifted goaltending talent was somewhat prehistoric, with often times what one might consider sub-par players like Bower and others only proving their mettle through actual performance, coming up the "hard way", seems to me your ascribing more "savvy" & smarts to Pollock et al then what actually went down. A happenstance straw drawn by a Waitress who accidentally shoved it in the glass without genuflection or thought. Just happened. Luck of the draw.

You'll have to do better than that my friend.

Rogatien Vachon and Phil Myre had proven in their starts against the Bruins the last week of the regular season that they were not the answer and going with either in game one was inviting a sweep.

Ken Dryden was 6 - 0 in his brief NHL career. Dryden was seen as a viable alternative and his first game performance confirmed that starting Dryden was viable.

You mention the Voyageurs. After the 1971 season Al McNeil, the Cup winning coached was demoted to coach the Voyageurs and the Canadiens started drafting defensemen based on size - over 6', and potential. He developed Larry Robinson and some of the others that were big to the new template.

Best examples of how this was reflected in the drafting would be 1974 Gilles Lupien 6'6", two rounds ahead of Gary Sargent 5'10", 1977 Moe Robinson 6'4" ahead of Mario Marois 5'11".

Pollock did role the dice when he allowed the Dryden decision but quickly analyzed and adapted to what he had going forward.

 

[Killion]

Rogatien Vachon and Phil Myre had proven in their starts against the Bruins the last week of the regular season that they were not the answer and going with either in game one was inviting a sweep.

... very true, but then again, Sam always was an opportunist. To take a high road with the issuance & platitude of intellectual superiority in recognizing what not only they but what everyone else failed to see, and to then revise history as a result does not wash in my book. The Habs' "lucked" into Dryden, their defensive and offensive skills, dictated by shrewd & astue drafting & development I do not argue with. Indeed, I dont often wonder wonder what Bunny Larocques' legacy mightve been had Dryden never happened, Vachon never traded or left unprotected in the Expansion Draft. Phil Myre as well; not an empty vessel.

 

[foame]

Glenn Hall could conceivably be ranked as high as 1 or as low as 7, and much of this will depend on how his playoff record is evaluated. I think it's important that his record is examined thoroughly.

I'll work on aggregating numbers like these for Hall's career. Any interest in seeing that or any comments on the methodology?

I think this playoff-breakdown is very illustrative and could actually give us some new information. We should probably do this for every goalie, at the very least for everyone that played before 1980s if we don't have the time.

I'll start with Dryden, I will hopefully get his numbers done for all his playoff-years by the end of this weekend.

Here's the playoff-stats from 1971's and 1972's:

Glossary:
G = Games Played, SA = Shots against - Montreal, GA = Goals against - Montreal, SF = Shots for - Montreal, GF = Goals for - Montreal, W/L = Won/Lose
(Drydens are on the left side, Opposing goalie on the right)

1: Statistics for period 1

2W: Statistics for period 2 when the Montreal are leading (Winning) after period 1
2T: Statistics for period 2 when the teams are Tied after period 1
2L: Statistics for period 2 when the Montreal are trailing (Losing) after period 1
2: Statistics for period 2

3W: Statistics for period 3 when the Montreal are leading (Winning) after period 2
3T: Statistics for period 3 when the teams are Tied after period 2
3L: Statistics for period 3 when the Montreal are trailing (Losing) after period 2
3: Statistics for period 3

OT: Statistics for over time

Numbers from The Hockey Summary Project.

Year: 1971 | Team: Boston | Round: Quarter

Period/State | _G_ | _SA_ | _GA_ | _SF_ | _GF_ | _W_ | _L_
1 | 7 | 101 | 9 | 74 | 7 | 4 | 3
2W | 3 | 46 | 3 | 36 | 3 | 2 | 1
2T | | | | | | |
2L | 4 | 51 | 6 | 41 | 4 | 2 | 2
2 | 7 | 97 | 9 | 77 | 7 | 4 | 3
3W | 4 | 45 | 5 | 47 | 7 | 3 | 1
3T | | | | | | |
3L | 3 | 43 | 3 | 33 | 7 | 1 | 2
3 | 7 | 88 | 8 | 80 | 14 | 4 | 3
OT | | | | | | |

Year: 1971 | Team: Minnesota | Round: Semi

Period/State | _G_ | _SA_ | _GA_ | _SF_ | _GF_ | _W_ | _L_
1 | 6 | 65 | 9 | 55 | 4 | 4 | 2
2W | 1 | 15 | 1 | 11 | 3 | 1 | 0
2T | 2 | 23 | 1 | 21 | 3 | 2 | 0
2L | 3 | 31 | 1 | 32 | 7 | 1 | 2
2 | 6 | 69 | 3 | 64 | 13 | 4 | 2
3W | 4 | 36 | 3 | 52 | 9 | 4 | 0
3T | 1 | 15 | 3 | 15 | 0 | 0 | 1
3L | 1 | 12 | 1 | 17 | 1 | 0 | 1
3 | 6 | 63 | 7 | 84 | 10 | 4 | 2
OT | | | | | | |

Year: 1971 | Team: Chicago | Round: Final

Period/State | _G_ | _SA_ | _GA_ | _SF_ | _GF_ | _W_ | _L_
1 | 7 | 79 | 7 | 72 | 6 | 4 | 3
2W | 2 | 29 | 3 | 23 | 2 | 1 | 1
2T | 2 | 25 | 2 | 18 | 2 | 1 | 1
2L | 3 | 22 | 2 | 37 | 4 | 2 | 1
2 | 7 | 76 | 7 | 78 | 8 | 4 | 3
3W | 2 | 22 | 1 | 11 | 0 | 1 | 1
3T | 2 | 16 | 0 | 21 | 3 | 2 | 0
3L | 3 | 23 | 2 | 20 | 3 | 1 | 2
3 | 7 | 61 | 3 | 52 | 6 | 4 | 3
OT | 1 | 12 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 1

Year: 1971 | TOTAL

Period/State | _G_ | _SA_ | _GA_ | _SF_ | _GF_ | _W_ | _L_ | _SP% Dryden_ | _SP% Opposing Goalie_
1 | 20 | 245 | 25 | 201 | 17 | 12 | 8 | 0,907 | 0,922
2W | 6 | 90 | 7 | 70 | 8 | 4 | 2 | 0,927 | 0,897
2T | 4 | 48 | 3 | 39 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 0,941 | 0,886
2L | 10 | 104 | 9 | 110 | 15 | 5 | 5 | 0,920 | 0,880
2 | 20 | 242 | 19 | 219 | 28 | 12 | 8 | 0,927 | 0,886
3W | 10 | 103 | 9 | 110 | 16 | 8 | 2 | 0,919 | 0,873
3T | 3 | 31 | 3 | 36 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0,911 | 0,923
3L | 7 | 78 | 6 | 70 | 11 | 2 | 5 | 0,928 | 0,864
3 | 20 | 212 | 18 | 216 | 30 | 12 | 8 | 0,921 | 0,878
OT | 1 | 12 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0,923| 1,00

I also took the time to count the number of First Goals Allowed by Dryden and in what kind of situation it was:

Team | Games Started | FGA-EV | FGA-PP | FGA-SH | Total FGA
Boston | 7 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Minnesota | 6 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 4
Blackhawks | 7 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 5
Total | 20 | 6 | 7 | 0 | 13

Conclusion: Dryden wasn't good in the first periods, allowing the first goal in 13 of 20 games, but outplayed the opposing goalies in the later periods.
Judging by the shots and goals it looks like Montreal was a typical playoff-team: slowstarting and not very good in the beginning of the games, but fairly efficient in the later states, when they were leading/trailing or the teams were tied.

Year: 1972 | Team:NY Rangers | Round: Quarter

Period/State | _G_ | _SA_ | _GA_ | _SF_ | _GF_ | _W_ | _L_ | _SP% Dryden_ | _SP% Opposing Goalie_
1 | 6 | 65 | 9 | 62 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 0,878 | 0,925
2W | | | | | | | | |
2T | 3 | 28 | 2 | 28 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0,933 | 0,903
2L | 3 | 41 | 0 | 17 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 1,00 | 0,894
2 | 6 | 69 | 2 | 45 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 0,971| 0,900
3W | 1 | 8 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0,888 | 1,00
3T | 3 | 35 | 4 | 30 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0,897 | 0,967
3L | 2 | 26 | 3 | 18 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0,896 | 0,900
3 | 6 | 69 | 8 | 54 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 0,896| 0,947

Team | Games Started | FGA-EV | FGA-PP | FGA-SH | Total FGA
NY Rangers | 6 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 4
Total | 6 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 4

Conclusion: Bad starting periods for Dryden, not as bad for Montreal. Seems like the team got tired as the game went on, as they got outshot by Rangers alot when they trailed in the second/third periods.

 

[Sturminator]

2. Dryden was not as good against the European East/West game as he was against the traditional North American game.

This is a judgment based on such a small sample size, though. During this period, all of the goalies on both sides (Dryden, Tretiak, Holecek, Cheevers, etc.) struggled from time-to-time with the style played on the other continent. Were they all incapable of adjusting, or is it mainly a problem of small sample sizes? I don't knock these goalies for their occasional international struggles, and I think it is unfair to do so.

 

[Sturminator]

You seriously think Brodeur was behind more All-time Greats on the 90s/00s Devils than Dryden was on the 1970s Canadiens?????

My own personal take from having seen both of their careers (not every game, of course, but almost all of the key playoff performances, at least):

- it would be a good debate between Dryden and Lafleur who was more important to those Habs cup teams. I know that on an all-time list, Dryden's stature is below Robinson's, but I'm here to tell you that's not how it looked on the ice. Ken Dryden struck fear into the hearts of his opponents. He and Lafleur were the guts of those Habs teams.

- When talking about New Jersey's cup winners, I think Brodeur was clearly the second most important Devil behind Stevens. I think he has become somewhat underappreciated at this point because of the silly "system goalie" tag. A strong defensive system doesn't mean that the goalie can't also be great. This is true of Brodeur, Dryden, and Benedict as well, just off the top of my head.

I would say that Dryden's playoff resume trumps Brodeur's somewhat. The question is whether or not Brodeur's superior regular season career makes up the difference. I think it's very close between these two. Very close.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Time and Space

This is a judgment based on such a small sample size, though. During this period, all of the goalies on both sides (Dryden, Tretiak, Holecek, Cheevers, etc.) struggled from time-to-time with the style played on the other continent. Were they all incapable of adjusting, or is it mainly a problem of small sample sizes? I don't knock these goalies for their occasional international struggles, and I think it is unfair to do so.

Great goalies will make the adjustment very quickly.

Tretiak did it within the first 10 minutes of game 1 of the 1972 Summit Series. The adjustments are evident on the game film.

Jacques Plante did likewise December, 1965 playing an exhibition game with the Junior Canadiens against the Soviet Nationals, leading the Juniors to a 2 - 1 victory. One complete rotation of the Soviet lines/units and his teammates.

Comes down to time and space. Minor positioning adjustment in the net affecting the various angles = space + time and adjusting to the oppositions execution habits = space + time.

For a very basic example of this watch goalies play a RHS vs a LHS, a rush down the LW, middle, RW. Look for the subtle time and space adjustments.

Beyond the adjustments you have the execution issues which reflect struggles. Building the mental data bank on each player, recognizing and executing. This is a constant throughout a goalies career. The great ones - Plante, Brodeur, Roy, Sawchuk, Hall, all had it with subtle differences in degree - why Plante was better than Glenn Hall in St.Louis and had a longer career with interesting SV% results late.

Ken Dryden chose to move on with life early so we cannot project to an elderly version but his struggles the season(1974-75) after his sabbatical indicate he was not at the Jacques Plante level. Plante came back from retirement or absences from the game a few times without missing a beat.

Dominik Hasek would fit somewhere with the others between Dryden and Plante. Basic issue with Hasek is that his style produced groin and lower body injuries which impacted his later performances. Plante, an asthmatic, adjusted to his condition, Sawchuk adjusted to a variety of issues, Hall would throw-up between periods and play., Roy maxed out on a wonky hip and overlooked an emergency appendectomy. Brodeur was the only one who enjoyed the good fortunes of health most of his career. No one gets a free pass.

So the sample space argument posited does not hold.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ken Dryden

My own personal take from having seen both of their careers (not every game, of course, but almost all of the key playoff performances, at least):

- it would be a good debate between Dryden and Lafleur who was more important to those Habs cup teams. I know that on an all-time list, Dryden's stature is below Robinson's, but I'm here to tell you that's not how it looked on the ice. Ken Dryden struck fear into the hearts of his opponents. He and Lafleur were the guts of those Habs teams.

- When talking about New Jersey's cup winners, I think Brodeur was clearly the second most important Devil behind Stevens. I think he has become somewhat underappreciated at this point because of the silly "system goalie" tag. A strong defensive system doesn't mean that the goalie can't also be great. This is true of Brodeur, Dryden, and Benedict as well, just off the top of my head.

I would say that Dryden's playoff resume trumps Brodeur's somewhat. The question is whether or not Brodeur's superior regular season career makes up the difference. I think it's very close between these two. Very close.

What did Lafleur contribute in 1971? Zero. 1972? =okay 1973? = very average, 1974? = <0, Bowman actually benched Lafleur on the Shutt-H.Richard RW line replacing Lafleur with Claude Larose.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/laflegu01.html

Starting in 1975 Lafleur was a playoff force but Dryden was a equal force with better longevity going back to 1971.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

... well, just a minute here C58. Dryden was handed the starting role when management in Montreal messed up, brought up from the Voyageurs by way of Cornell, a complete outlier who's stunning performance in 71 was as surprising to them as it was to the rest of the hockey world. Accidental Tourist. Right guy, right place, right time. Montreal' lucked out, yet your suggesting it was by conscious telegraphed design, thought & foresight.

Ken Dryden as a Junior in Toronto played B level through his amateur & Major Junior eligibility years, opting for the Road Less Travelled at that time. Over-looked or dismissed if studied by Toronto's hockey intelligentsia. To further suggest that Pollock et al saw that long train coming is revisionist, as Montreal for eons knew exactly what they were doing in terms of both of the identification & grooming of talent.

Now, admittedly, the identification of truly gifted goaltending talent was somewhat prehistoric, with often times what one might consider sub-par players like Bower and others only proving their mettle through actual performance, coming up the "hard way", seems to me your ascribing more "savvy" & smarts to Pollock et al then what actually went down. A happenstance straw drawn by a Waitress who accidentally shoved it in the glass without genuflection or thought. Just happened. Luck of the draw.

You'll have to do better than that my friend.

Wasn't Dryden drafted by Boston?

I'm not familiar with the rules of the 60s in terms of teams procuring player's rights. How did Dryden end up with Montreal?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Hey, we think alike. I had Hall/Hasek as 1/2. Unfortunately I don't have a vote since they rejected my list. Claimed I had 2 non-goalies on my list but refused to tell me who they were so I withdrew my list.

I think one was steve thomas and it is obvious I meant tim thomas. I have no idea who the other one was.

Wow, this is bad news. Rejecting someone who actually saw the likes of Hall, Plante and Sawchuk in their day.

The youngsters must be trying to weed us old farts out.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Agree

... very true, but then again, Sam always was an opportunist. To take a high road with the issuance & platitude of intellectual superiority in recognizing what not only they but what everyone else failed to see, and to then revise history as a result does not wash in my book. The Habs' "lucked" into Dryden, their defensive and offensive skills, dictated by shrewd & astue drafting & development I do not argue with. Indeed, I dont often wonder wonder what Bunny Larocques' legacy mightve been had Dryden never happened, Vachon never traded or left unprotected in the Expansion Draft. Phil Myre as well; not an empty vessel.

Hockey and other sports are opportunist driven.

Previously you made the point about goalie development being hit and miss leading up to the era in question and beyond. Very true.

There were biases against RH catching goalie, big goalies - they could not easily cover low shots, etc. , the mask even though Jacques Plante showed in less than a season that it was a very viable piece of equipment. With the mask Plante had an excellent 1959 - 60 season capped by his best playoffs of the 5 SC Championship run. Yet the anti-mask faction persisted.

Better questions exist - why the Canadiens misread or missed out on Bernie Parent, Gilles Meloche, Daniel Bouchard. Why they left Myre in Shawinigan choosing the likes of Ted Tucker, Bruce Mullett, Wayne Wood for the junior Canadiens. The misread on Ray Martynuk.

Unexpected circumstances offer the opportunity to change or look for reasons to return to tradition. Leafs and Mahovlich. Enhance and add the offensive element or break the bronco?

Pollock choose to enhance.

Larocque never grew his game sufficiently at the NHL level. Rookie and end of career Larocque were very similar. Comparable could be Mike Palmateer, not a huge rookie to veteran growth curve.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Which goalies benefited the most from the defence/system in front of them? If you were to rank....

I think Id say:

1. Brodeur
2. Dryden
3. Plante
4. Roy
5. Hasek
7. Sawchuk
6. Hall

I might switch Dryden & Brodeur here, but clearly the top 3 benefited the most over their careers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes

Wasn't Dryden drafted by Boston?

I'm not familiar with the rules of the 60s in terms of teams procuring player's rights. How did Dryden end up with Montreal?

Yes, Dryden was drafted by Boston. Traded to the Canadiens for Guy Allen who was a solid but slow junior defenseman:

June 28, 1964: Rights traded to Montreal by Boston with Alex Campbell for Guy Allen and Paul Reid, June 28, 1964.

Other two players involved are trivia questions.

 

[Sturminator]

What did Lafleur contribute in 1971? Zero. 1972? =okay 1973? = very average, 1974? = <0, Bowman actually benched Lafleur on the Shutt-H.Richard RW line replacing Lafleur with Claude Larose.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/laflegu01.html

Starting in 1975 Lafleur was a playoff force but Dryden was a equal force with better longevity going back to 1971.

Ermmm...those Habs teams only won a single cup before 1975, and four afterwards. If you go back and read my quote, I compare their contributions to "those Habs cup teams". It's not really a "discussion" if one doesn't bother reading for content.

It is perhaps not a coincidence that the 70's Habs became a dynasty only after Guy Lafleur hit his stride. Lafleur was almost certainly more meaningful than Dryden from 76-79 when they won four straight, but I put them at about equal footing on those Cup teams because 1973 obviously counts, and because Dryden was a big part of the dynasty team, himself.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes, Dryden was drafted by Boston. Traded to the Canadiens for Guy Allen who was a solid but slow junior defenseman:

June 28, 1964: Rights traded to Montreal by Boston with Alex Campbell for Guy Allen and Paul Reid, June 28, 1964.

Other two players involved are trivia questions.

Probably too specific of a question, but I'll pose it anyway without expectation. This trade was made in June of 1964, I have to assume that the draft took place in May or June of '64...and I know the draft was still in its infancy and doesn't look quite like the draft we know today for a few years yet...but if the Habs liked Dryden so much, why not pick him at 12 instead of Guy Allen (now to 14th). And why would Boston immediately (that is, without them stepping foot on the ice again, all four of them) trade pick #2 and #14 for #12 and #18. It seems very strange, more so by today's standard (where draft pick value has increased with advances in scouting), but even then, no one thought that to be a touch odd?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Brodeur was the Devils' starting goalie from midway through 1993-94 to present 2011-12. 17.5 seasons, because of the lockout. Stevens left after 2002-03, Niedermayer after 2003-04.

Brodeur has spent 9.5 seasons as starter behind Scott Stevens, 8 without him. 10.5 seasons with Niedermayer (though really only 1 with prime Niedermayer), 7 without him. If Broduer plays just 2 more seasons (unlikely with the damn lockout), he'll have played the majority of his career without Stevens

I more or less agree with TCG's order for "most helped by his defense."

Plante was actually hurt in awards voting by playin behind Harvey, I think. Only a 1st Teamer twice through leading the league in GAA 5 straight times. Then Harvey gets traded and Plante is immediately the Hart Trophy winner as the writers realize he wasn't a product of Harvey

The Devils of the Brodeur era were great defensively because of the system they perfected, not the individuals in it. Certainly it was even better with world class players like Stevens, Neidermayer and Brodeur.

Look at 2011, when Jacques Lemaire took over the last place Devils mid-season and went 29-17-3 with them. With no standout defensemen, under Lamaire they managed to go 17 straight games without giving up a first period goal. And it wasn't because of spectacular goaltending. It was simply the case of reinstituting Devils hockey.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ermmm...those Habs teams only won a single cup before 1975, and four afterwards. If you go back and read my quote, I compare their contributions to "those Habs cup teams". It's not really a "discussion" if one doesn't bother reading for content.

It is perhaps not a coincidence that the 70's Habs became a dynasty only after Guy Lafleur hit his stride. Lafleur was almost certainly more meaningful than Dryden from 76-79 when they won four straight, but I put them at about equal footing on those Cup teams because 1973 obviously counts, and because Dryden was a big part of the dynasty team, himself.

Habs won in 71 and 73.

 

[BM67]

Habs won in 71 and 73.

Lafleur wasn't a Hab in 71 though.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lafleur wasn't a Hab in 71 though.

But Dryden was.

Isn't that the point C58 was making, that Dryden was just as important to Habs success as Lafleur?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Actually

Ermmm...those Habs teams only won a single cup before 1975, and four afterwards. If you go back and read my quote, I compare their contributions to "those Habs cup teams". It's not really a "discussion" if one doesn't bother reading for content.

It is perhaps not a coincidence that the 70's Habs became a dynasty only after Guy Lafleur hit his stride. Lafleur was almost certainly more meaningful than Dryden from 76-79 when they won four straight, but I put them at about equal footing on those Cup teams because 1973 obviously counts, and because Dryden was a big part of the dynasty team, himself.

Actually two - 1971, 1973 with about one third of the core 1971 roster contributing thru 1979.

If Lafleur was more meaningful between 1976-79 then after 1979 when Dryden and Lemaire retired the team should have kept on winning cups due to Lafleur.

Dryden and Lemaire were strong contributors in 1971 without Bowman and Lafleur, and in 1973 with little from Lafleur.