Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[quoipourquoi]

But is it not interesting that this decline (at least if we are talking save%) coincided exactly with Montreals change in dicipline from the 91/92 to 92/93 season (acctually just beaten in save% by Hasek in his according to many not very good 3rd season).

It also coincided with people's perception of Roy as an NHL goaltender when he started to become fodder for trade talks. You'll notice he had very good save percentage seasons when he was not on a particularly disciplined team (1994, 1997, 2002), and by one of TCG's studies, ranked among the highest goaltenders in even-strength save percentage at the end of his career.

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/07/even-strength-save-percentage.html


And Hasek's save percentage was lower than Puppa's in 1992-93 and barely above Fuhr's, so I don't think you're going to be able to milk much out of a season in which an injury-prone goaltender forced his team's hand in a trade...

Bolded: I don´t think you should claim that as some sort of facts?

at the time of Fuhr's injury in '93 he still had just 47 starts in the NHL, 19 of them in October or November. And at the time of Fuhr's injury, Hasek's career save percentage in the NHL was .887 in Oct/Nov, and .906 from December onwards

Between that and him losing out on his fight for the starting job in Chicago in 1990-91 and 1991-92 - and tanking in Indianapolis in 1991-92 - I don't see how that point would be in contention.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Are there any particular hangups we have in regard to Patrick Roy's career? I recall seventieslord saying something a year or two ago to the effect about him having some ho-hum regular seasons. Is this something we need to explore prior to the vote?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sawchuk's dynasty years (1950-51 to 1954-55) vs the rest of his career

Regular season dynasty years
195-78-65 W-L-T
56 shutouts
3 1st Team All Stars; 2 2nd Team All Stars
+186.8 Goals Versus Threshold (+38.6 +38.6, +34.3, +41.0, +34.3)

Regular season rest of career
252-252-107 W-L-T
47 shutouts
2 2nd Team All Stars
+55.1 Goals Versus Threshold

Playoffs dynasty years
28-17
8 shutouts
3 Cups in 5 years
+6.4 Goals Versus Threshold (-15.3, +13.7, -3.9,, +6.9, +5.0)

Playoffs rest of career
26-31
4 shutouts
-10.2 Goals Versus Threshold

Plante's Dynasty Years (1955-56 to 1959-60) Versus the Rest of His Career

Regular season dynasty years
185-77-55 W-L-T
37 shutouts
2 1st Team All Stars; 3 2nd Team All Stars
+158.1 Goals Versus Threshold (+32.6, +25.5, +30.0, +45.4+, 24.6)

Regular season rest of career
252-169-90 W-L-T
45 shutouts
1 1st Team All Star; 1 2nd Team All Star
+213.5 Goals Versus Threshold

Playoffs dynasty years
40-9
7 shutouts
5 Cups in 5 yers
+33.9 Goals Versus Threshold (+6.0, +8.7, + 8.3, +2.9, +8.0)

Playoffs rest of career
31-27
7 shutouts
+15.2 Goals Versus Threshold

Conclusions

This is a relatively simple look at stats, but it supports the narrative that

1) Sawchuk had the better regular season peak during the dynasty years
2) Plante had the better playoff peak during the dynasty years. Sawchuk has the single best playoffs between them (one of the very best single season playoff runs of all time), but he also had two down playoffs during the dynasty years, and was arguably part of the reason Detroit lost two Cups they should have won. Plante was consistently very good to excellent in the playoffs during the dynasty years.
3) Plante was more consistent and therefore more valuable outside the dynasty years.

 

[pluppe]

It also coincided with people's perception of Roy as an NHL goaltender when he started to become fodder for trade talks. You'll notice he had very good save percentage seasons when he was not on a particularly disciplined team (1994, 1997, 2002), and by one of TCG's studies, ranked among the highest goaltenders in even-strength save percentage at the end of his career.

Very good numbers but not GOAT numbers. And in that study still behind Hasek post peak Hasek.

And Hasek's save percentage was lower than Puppa's in 1992-93 and barely above Fuhr's, so I don't think you're going to be able to milk much out of a season in which an injury-prone goaltender forced his team's hand in a trade...

Still higher than Roy.

Between that and him losing out on his fight for the starting job in Chicago in 1990-91 and 1991-92 - and tanking in Indianapolis in 1991-92 - I don't see how that point would be in contention.

If you think this:

Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender
at the time of Fuhr's injury in '93 he still had just 47 starts in the NHL, 19 of them in October or November. And at the time of Fuhr's injury, Hasek's career save percentage in the NHL was .887 in Oct/Nov, and .906 from December onwards

Proves this:

Two he blew because he didn't recognize the importance of playing hockey in September and October and November,

I think we need to agree to disagree

 

[quoipourquoi]

Very good numbers but not GOAT numbers. And in that study still behind Hasek post peak Hasek.

1998-99 is absolute peak Hasek.

 

[GuineaPig]

Soooooo.....Hextall, Vanbiesbrouck, and Barrasso are suddenly crud goalies? Did I miss something somewhere?

I'd like to see someone argue that the goalies in the late '80s and early '90s were better than those from the mid '90s onward.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I'd like to see someone argue that the goalies in the late '80s and early '90s were better than those from the mid '90s onward.

I'd like to see someone argue that allowing goalies to suit up like the Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man in the '90s doesn't skew the numbers. And that's not even accounting for all the trapping.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Removing Roy and Hasek


1988
Peeters, Hayward, Stefan, Barrasso, Hrudey, Smith, Pang, Hanlon, Vanbiesbrouck
1989
Casey, Takko, Vernon, Weeks, Tugnutt, McLean, Hextall, Bester, Sidorkiewicz
1990
Liut, Puppa, Malarchuk, Fitzpatrick, Casey, Healy, Moog, Lemelin, Essensa, Wregget
1991
Belfour, Richter, Peeters, Hrudey, Joseph, Essensa, Beaupre, Moog, Barrasso
1992
Essensa, Joseph, Vanbiesbrouck, Fitzpatrick, Richter, McLean, Beauregard, Hrudey, Draper
1993
Joseph, Potvin, Belfour, Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Puppa, Fuhr, Essensa


Multiple Appearances
Barrasso: 4, 4, 8
Belfour: 1, 3
Casey: 1, 5
Essensa: 1, 6, 8, 9
Fitzpatrick: 4, 4
Hrudey: 4, 5, 8
Joseph: 1, 2, 5
McLean: 6, 6
Moog: 7, 8
Peeters: 1, 3
Puppa: 2, 6
Richter: 2, 5
Vanbiesbrouck: 3, 5, 9


1994
Vanbiesbrouck, Brodeur, Fitzpatrick, Joseph, Wakaluk, Richter, Terreri, Potvin
1995
Thibault, Osgood, Moog, Vanbiesbrouck, Roussel, Carey, Burke, Fiset, Hrudey
1996
Puppa, Hackett, Hebert, Hextall, Richter, Brodeur, Osgood, Potvin, Khabibulin
1997
Hackett, Brodeur, Hebert, Vanbiesbrouck, Richter, Fitzpatrick, Burke, Lalime
1998
Kidd, Barrasso, Kolzig, Brodeur, Hackett, Belfour, Dafoe, Osgood
1999
Dafoe, Tugnutt, Irbe, Khabibulin, Hebert, Shields, Storr, Belfour


Multiple Appearances
Belfour: 6, 8
Brodeur: 2, 2, 4, 6
Burke: 7, 7
Dafoe: 1, 7
Fitzpatrick: 3, 6
Hackett: 1, 2, 5
Hebert: 3, 3, 5
Khabibulin: 4, 9
Osgood: 2, 7, 8
Potvin: 8, 8
Richter: 5, 5, 6
Vanbiesbrouck: 1, 4, 4

 

[Canadiens1958]

Equipment and Systems

I'd like to see someone argue that the goalies in the late '80s and early '90s were better than those from the mid '90s onward.

Mid 1990s onward featured lighter goalie equipment.Throw in improvements in defensive systems and it is not surprising SV% on a league wide basis rose to 2012 levels.

Brian Elliott had a .940 SV% last season yet he is not even close to the talent of the seven goalies considered. Tim Thomas,formative years with heavy equipment, a journeyman, struggles in various leagues and continents for years then finds the right equipment and system for him, beats the seasonal SV% mark with a .938.

If we start with the 1995-96 NHL regular season, consensus that all goalies had lighter equipment by then, there are 12 instances where goalies had 35GP and a SV% > .930

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/qhl19531954.html

NHL 1917-18 - 1994-95 regular season,

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_goalie

there is only one, at 41 GP, barely over .930.

Note Hasek loses a few season since they were high .929 rounded upwards.

The talent question eighties/mid nineties vs post mid nineties fades from prominence when the lighter equipment/systems issues is introduced.

HR does not recognize Jacques Plante's 1970-71 season 40GP, ,942SV%, = so long Brian Elliott:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=4310

db link does not work, just do a search by name. Data is there.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I'd like to see someone argue that allowing goalies to suit up like the Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man in the '90s doesn't skew the numbers. And that's not even accounting for all the trapping.

Late 90's/early 2000's

VS

1986 (and don't forget the incredible numbers roy put up in the '86 playoffs)

 

[Hardyvan123]

Considering it is difficult to get any credit at all for international play, I think that bias is already built in.

Though many of the goalies already up for discussion played about 60% of the season of someone like Broduer - shorter schedules and the coaching tendency to play backups more pre-late 90s.

Also no one should be confusing the AHL with the NHL either.

When Fuhr , or some other western goalie comes up we can talk about travel but East coast teams, like the Flyers for instance only had 2 road games out of their time zone after the all-star break a couple of years ago.

The bias for international players in the D project seemed to be more in favour of those who never played in the NHL rather than guys that did like Zubov or Gonchar and continues with Hasek for some.

We shall see if this continues when Tretiak comes up.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Also no one should be confusing the AHL with the NHL either.

Except of course that they are the only 2 professional leagues that play anything close to an 80 game + playoffs schedule.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Late 90's/early 2000's

VS

1986 (and don't forget the incredible numbers roy put up in the '86 playoffs)

Also, consider Grant Fuhr put up career best numbers as a washed-up part timer in the mid-'90s. Numbers superior in both GAA and Save% to a prime Fuhr in the mid to late-'80s. Suddenly Fuhr is a much better goalie when he's washed than he was in his prime? Common sense says there's another dynamic at work here and it isn't the quality of the goaltenders.

 

[Killion]

1986.... and don't forget the incredible numbers roy put up in the '86 playoffs.

... pretty frikin extreme huh? The equipment, the pads in particular are wearing them, their not wearing the equipment. Its completely Alien to me. Have you ever tried that kinda gear out Rhiessan?

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Late 90's/early 2000's

VS

1986 (and don't forget the incredible numbers roy put up in the '86 playoffs)

VS

 

[Rhiessan71]

... pretty frikin extreme huh? The equipment, the pads in particular are wearing them, their not wearing the equipment. Its completely Alien to me. Have you ever tried that kinda gear out Rhiessan?

Heh, grew up in it man. I didn't get my first set of synthetic equipment until '91 (i was 20). A black, burgundy and white set of Forrester's, it cost me a pretty penny too.
It was maybe a year or two after synthetics started popping up in the NHL on a regular basis.

I can't even begin to describe the differences and freedom it gave you compared to the other crap.
It changed my whole style from a standup/double stacker(Vanbiesbrouck) to a hybrid butterfly(Brodeur).
If only it had of come out and been affordable 5-7 years earlier when I was still playing Junior B

 

[Hardyvan123]

Except of course that they are the only 2 professional leagues that play anything close to an 80 game + playoffs schedule.

WHL plays 14 less games or so and they always ride on the bus, so what?

 

[Rhiessan71]

WHL plays 14 less games or so and they always ride on the bus, so what?

And the WHL is a professional league?
Pay attention!

Or are you saying that the WHL is comparable to the top Euro leagues?

Pick your poison there my friend

 

[Killion]

Heh, grew up in it man. If only it had of come out and been
affordable 5-7 years earlier when I was still playing Junior B

Interesting. You found it made that much of a difference which speaks volumes, as getting as far as AAA, Jr.B or A playing semi or full-on "old school" means you knew what you were doing and then some. Im assuming the design of the pad, having checked them out in stores almost forces the player into the Butterfly, what with the strap & rig set-up along the inside leg around the knee?.... Still bothers me though. I dont think the human body was meant to bend, move like that. Only went into Butterfly on screens, scrambles, dekes, backhands, and as I recall took a considerable amount of practice to get it down pat as it required no small amount of contortion in the older & far heavier pads. A lot of strain on the knees, legs, groin & stomach.

 

[Hardyvan123]

And the WHL is a professional league?
Pay attention!

Or are you saying that the WHL is comparable to the top Euro leagues?

Pick your poison there my friend

I'm just saying that you are drawing too much comparison for the aHL being as close as the NHL and that the #of games argument in Europe is being undervalued by you here.

Even if you don't buy the games in Europe making up the distance between Hasek and Roy, the quality of his teams sure does compared to the ones Roy and Broduer had right?

Or do we draw up different rules for different comps?

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Interesting. You found it made that much of a difference which speaks volumes, as getting as far as AAA, Jr.B or A playing semi or full-on "old school" means you knew what you were doing and then some. Im assuming the design of the pad, having checked them out in stores almost forces the player into the Butterfly, what with the strap & rig set-up along the inside leg around the knee?.... Still bothers me though. I dont think the human body was meant to bend, move like that. Only went into Butterfly on screens, scrambles, dekes, backhands, and as I recall took a considerable amount of practice to get it down pat as it required no small amount of contortion in the older & far heavier pads. A lot of strain on the knees, legs, groin & stomach.

TBH I don't really see either the butterfly or the stand-up styles as being inherently superior to one another. It really just changes where you're vulnerable: Down low for a stand-up and top-shelf for a butterfly.

 

[Killion]

TBH I don't really see either the butterfly or the stand-up styles as being inherently superior to one another. It really just changes where you're vulnerable: Down low for a stand-up and top-shelf for a butterfly.

... ya. I prefer the hybrid types, Brodeur, Thomas, Roy when he was active. The chain is linked back of course, to Esposito & before him to the GrandDaddy of them all, Glenn Hall. The "pure" Butterfly guys I have no time for. They drop on every shot, play east-west, cant even skate proficiently in a lot of cases let alone handle the puck with their sticks, acting as a 3rd defenceman in killing the rush deep. 90% of the game spent on their knee's. They dont make "saves", they "block" the puck.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I'm just saying that you are drawing too much comparison for the aHL being as close as the NHL and that the #of games argument in Europe is being undervalued by you here.

Uhhh no, as I said earlier, I don't consider the AHL, skillwise, above all Euro leagues but the AHL does make up ground on them by playing the schedule they do.
It takes more than just skill or ability to make and succeed in the NHL. Being able to play at that high skill level for and endure the much longer NHL schedule is also a big factor.

Even if you don't buy the games in Europe making up the distance between Hasek and Roy, the quality of his teams sure does compared to the ones Roy and Broduer had right?

Dealt with earlier in this thread and the other thread. The gap between Hasek and Roy in team strength is not nearly what you or many others try to make it out to be.
Nor did Roy's AV teams have anything close to having just a walk in the park to the Cup finals every year in that Western Conference.

Or do we draw up different rules for different comps?

It's not about differing rules, it's about assigning weight. That will always be subjective on a person to person basis but assigning equal weight to Hasek's Czech league seasons vs Roy/Brodeur's NHL seasons is as extreme and ridiculous as assigning no weight to it.

 

[Rhiessan71]

TBH I don't really see either the butterfly or the stand-up styles as being inherently superior to one another. It really just changes where you're vulnerable: Down low for a stand-up and top-shelf for a butterfly.

The butterfly is superior because it's much more consistent. You're playing the %'s more and you're forcing the shooter to beat you and as Killion alluded to, it's much more effective vs screens and tips.

With standup or reflex tending, it's possible to be faked out or to beat yourself before the shooter even has to do anything.
You usually look either really good or really bad, there's not usually a lot of middle ground.

A combination of the two always felt the best to me, felt right. Sometimes you just know where the shooter is going or what he's trying to do and waiting for him to get there is going to put you at a disadvantage. So you get aggressive and unorthodox to keep him from getting where he's trying to go.
Whether it's as simple as poke checking or as elaborate as laying across the bottom of the net early on a guy walking out of the corner to deny them an easy walk around.
Hard to explain, I guess it comes down to knowing/following your instincts on when to play the %'s and when to make your own.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The butterfly is superior because it's much more consistent. You're playing the %'s more and you're forcing the shooter to beat you and as Killion alluded to, it's much more effective vs screens and tips.

Luc Robitaille in various interviews towards the end of Roy's career credited the butterfly particularly with lessening the effectiveness of two-on-one breakouts.