Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

[Run It Back]

There isn’t a good reason. That award is more often given out to coaches of teams who outperform lower expectations instead of coaches of teams expected to be good and stay good, which is what the Lightning have done for the last decade. Not one full season under .500 with Cooper. They haven’t quit on him, in a league where coaches have a notoriously short shelf life. Four trips to the finals and two Cup rings. Has championships at every level he's coached in. Not good enough for Jack Adams apparently, an award that hasn’t been given to the Stanley Cup winning coach in the same year in a long time.

(Had to look this up and unless i’m mistaken the last time was John Tortorella in 2004)

A fun note about the Jack Adams: Cooper was nominated in 2014, first full year with the Lightning, a year where yes, they outperformed low expectations. The winner that year? Patrick Roy, who also took a team that wasn’t good and outperformed expectations. He hasn't had as good a season since and still hasn't gotten past the first round as a coach, but hey, he has a Jack Adams.

Cooper was also nominated in 2019, but lost to Trotz, another "outperform low expectations" win. He’s probably fine with it.

All good arguments but he has also had four lock HOFs and probably a fifth on one team at the same time throughout, one of them being a generational goalie. He should have won and he did but IMO he made it a lot harder on himself with his coaching style.

 

[doublechili]

I'm not arguing that the Islanders' management made the right strategic decision.

Honesty requires your actions to align with your words. When someone says one thing and then does the opposite, that is, by definition, dishonest. You can't separate someone's actions from their words and then claim their actions demonstrate honesty when those actions negate the implications of their statements.

That's pretty much it.

I also wonder what this place would've been like back then, and even now, if the Isles traded Tavares away at the TDL when he was saying he didn't want to be traded. Hindsight makes everyone a genius.

Anyway, it's all moot. Snow was too busy negotiating the contract extension with Josh Bailey at that TDL (which ended up costing us a pick to get rid of him) to have time to do anything with Tavares....

 

[periferal]

I'm not arguing that the Islanders' management made the right strategic decision.

Honesty requires your actions to align with your words. When someone says one thing and then does the opposite, that is, by definition, dishonest. You can't separate someone's actions from their words and then claim their actions demonstrate honesty when those actions negate the implications of their statements.

That's pretty much it.

So Tavares is a liar and the Isles dropped the ball. Both can be true (and both are true). However the Isles error was much more egregious.

 

[periferal]

I also wonder what this place would've been like back then, and even now, if the Isles traded Tavares away at the TDL when he was saying he didn't want to be traded. Hindsight makes everyone a genius.

Anyway, it's all moot. Snow was too busy negotiating the contract extension with Josh Bailey at that TDL (which ended up costing us a pick to get rid of him) to have time to do anything with Tavares....

Not that you will, but you can check out my posts in 2017 as I would've been fine Tavares on July 2, 2017 - But definitely before the season as I never would've risked an asset that valuable getting injured.

When you're with the only team you know for about a decade and you can't commit to them right away, then you're telling them you're thinking about leaving - Regardless of what your words say.

And if you're thinking about leaving then you can leave for nothing - And that CANNOT happen.

The Avs got that this year with Rantonen. Of course their #1 goal was to resign him (and he even might have later one), but when he kept rejecting their very substantial offers (and evidently their best offer) then they had to protect the team. Turns out they did very well all things considered - But especially when considering that they could've lost him to Dallas for nothing.

 

[PK Cronin]

So Tavares is a liar and the Isles dropped the ball. Both can be true (and both are true). However the Isles error was much more egregious.

100%, yes.

 

[doublechili]

Not that you will, but you can check out my posts in 2017 as I would've been fine Tavares on July 2, 2017 - But definitely before the season as I never would've risked an asset that valuable getting injured.

When you're with the only team you know for about a decade and you can't commit to them right away, then you're telling them you're thinking about leaving - Regardless of what your words say.

And if you're thinking about leaving then you can leave for nothing - And that CANNOT happen.

The Avs got that this year with Rantonen. Of course their #1 goal was to resign him (and he even might have later one), but when he kept rejecting their very substantial offers (and evidently their best offer) then they had to protect the team. Turns out they did very well all things considered - But especially when considering that they could've lost him to Dallas for nothing.

In that case you were ahead of the curve. My vague recollection is that there wasn't much concern around here about Tavares leaving the summer before or even at the TDL, and I don't think there was a contingent calling for him to be dealt at the TDL. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been dealt. Just that if he was we'd be hearing complaints about how the Isles traded Tavares when he said he wanted to stay.

I think concern started to register when he scheduled all of those meeting with the other teams, and he had binders....

 

[gordie43]

In that case you were ahead of the curve. My vague recollection is that there wasn't much concern around here about Tavares leaving the summer before or even at the TDL, and I don't think there was a contingent calling for him to be dealt at the TDL. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been dealt. Just that if he was we'd be hearing complaints about how the Isles traded Tavares when he said he wanted to stay.

I think concern started to register when he scheduled all of those meeting with the other teams, and he had binders....

Yeah that they way I felt heading to free agency. Tavares was always a quiet guy figured he was keeping a tight lip bc of the guy he was. When he didn’t sign the week before July 1 I didn’t have a good feeling

 

[periferal]

In that case you were ahead of the curve. My vague recollection is that there wasn't much concern around here about Tavares leaving the summer before or even at the TDL, and I don't think there was a contingent calling for him to be dealt at the TDL. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been dealt. Just that if he was we'd be hearing complaints about how the Isles traded Tavares when he said he wanted to stay.

I think concern started to register when he scheduled all of those meeting with the other teams, and he had binders....

Appreciate the comments. Thank you.

My brain works to anticipate bad things coming (why my #1 topic these days is where Lou is leading this franchise - And thus why he needs to go ASAP).

Anyway for giggles on Tavares, I searched back to 2017 and found this post below. Again it was as obvious to me that they should've traded Tavares in 2017 as it is that Lou needs to be fired immediately...

The bottom line is this...

Tavares is not signed.

We can analyze his facial features until ours turn blue, but ACTIONS are everything. And in an NHL where pretty much every major star who could resign with their current team in the past few months did so except Tavares - Every one of us would be extremely foolish to ignore that Tavares hasn't.

It would be equally foolish to think that Tavares is a shoo-in to resign because of all the years of him proclaiming how much he loves it here. And because until he resigns there is a chance that he leaves for nothing, it would be even more foolish not to prepare for that reality.

I've said it for months prior to the season that the Islanders should've given Tavares/JT a very professional/polite pseudo-deadline of training camp to resign or else the Isles would be forced to shop him in a trade. No player, and I mean NO PLAYER, is above the team, and if after 9 years and so may other of his teammates willing to resign long–term, Tavares cannot commit to the Isles, then maybe they shouldn't commit to him and seek out a trade for the best of the franchise.

A smart team will always do what is best for the team - Not the individual. And to let JT walk at the end of this year for nothing is literally the worst possible outcome and not best for the team. And every moment that passes without JT resigned speaks volumes, and the options/power that the Isles have to do something about it dwindles. We're now at the point where a (very professional) ultimatum must be given where if Tavares doesn’t sign by let’s say by New Year’s, then the Isles will actively look to deal him to the highest bidder.

And the mystery of where the Isles will play going forward cannot be an excuse to wait longer because not only could the RFP decision not come until late 2018, but Leddy, Boychuck, Cizikas, Ladd, Clutterbuck, etc all signed here long-term with less (even no) information about Belmont. That, along with any other personal issues, didn’t stop all those guys from committing to this team…So what does it say that the guy whose supposed to be the captain of your entire franchise that he so far refuses do the same?

No smart person wants to lose Tavares, but if he cannot step up and commit to a team that wants him, what is going to be an insane amount of money, and in the only place he’s ever known professionally, then the Isles need to do what’s best for the Isles and use Tavares as an asset that can get us closer to the Cup. Because losing him for nothing will set them back literally years, and I’d rather win the Cup without Tavares then be part of another rebuild.

 

[Zeeker]

Appreciate the comments. Thank you.

My brain works to anticipate bad things coming (why my #1 topic these days is where Lou is leading this franchise - And thus why he needs to go ASAP).

Anyway for giggles on Tavares, I searched back to 2017 and found this post below. Again it was as obvious to me that they should've traded Tavares in 2017 as it is that Lou needs to be fired immediately...

Bravo for pulling out the receipts.

People seem to get annoyed by you when you bludgeon home a point to death, but I think you’ve proven to be in the right more often that not, and the above is a prime example.

 

[doublechili]

Appreciate the comments. Thank you.

My brain works to anticipate bad things coming (why my #1 topic these days is where Lou is leading this franchise - And thus why he needs to go ASAP).

Anyway for giggles on Tavares, I searched back to 2017 and found this post below. Again it was as obvious to me that they should've traded Tavares in 2017 as it is that Lou needs to be fired immediately...

Okay, you either edited that now or you were truly ahead of the curve. Nice.

And, I can't let this one go, sorry:

"Because losing him for nothing will set them back literally years, and I’d rather win the Cup without Tavares then be part of another rebuild."

Just had to highlight a post from you speaking negatively of a rebuild.

 

[Zeeker]

Okay, you either edited that now or you were truly ahead of the curve. Nice.

And, I can't let this one go, sorry:

"Because losing him for nothing will set them back literally years, and I’d rather win the Cup without Tavares then be part of another rebuild."

Just had to highlight a post from you speaking negatively of a rebuild.

I know you’re speaking tongue in cheek, but I think that comment is actually a great example that we don’t WANT a rebuild. Nobody wants the team to be bad just to prove that they were right all along.

It’s only an option of last resort, and Periferal and others think we’ve reached that point of no return. In 2017, probably given the younger collective age of the team, he seemed to think a rebuild wasn’t necessary if the team played their cards right with Tavares.

 

[doublechili]

I know you’re speaking tongue in cheek, but I think that comment is actually a great example that we don’t WANT a rebuild. Nobody wants the team to be bad just to prove that they were right all along.

It’s only an option of last resort, and Periferal and others think we’ve reached that point of no return. In 2017, probably given the younger collective age of the team, he seemed to think a rebuild wasn’t necessary if the team played their cards right with Tavares.

Yup, totally tongue in cheek. But I do get your point. Ironically, if the Isles keep Lou and it looks like he's going to be around for a couple more years, I may reconsider the retool vs rebuild thing myself. Not because I think a rebuild is the right thing in a vacuum, but because I think Lou could pull off a rebuild but could not pull off a retool. The latter requires a lot of action, the former not as much.

 

[seafoam]

Lets bring back both Nelson and Tavares this summer.

Nelson-Tavares-Holmstrom
Lee-Horvat-Barzal
Duclair-Pageau-Palmieri
Tsyplakov-Cizikas-Gatcomb

 

[Throttle]

For all the discussion on JT, there’s also the change in GM from Lou to Dubas. That changed JTs options significantly.

If Lou stays, then he is not signing JT to TML. He’s fixing their D and depth.

His agent dog and ponied the market and let the media frenzy in Toronto put all the burden on Rookie Dubas to sign JT - smartly played tbh.

Outside of the management change, no one knows, but my guess is he resigned with the Isles.

 

[miscs75]

Lets bring back both Nelson and Tavares this summer.

Nelson-Tavares-Holmstrom
Lee-Horvat-Barzal
Duclair-Pageau-Palmieri
Tsyplakov-Cizikas-Gatcomb

That would atleast make the lineup a bit more dangerous than this year.

 

[periferal]

Okay, you either edited that now or you were truly ahead of the curve. Nice.

I don't lie. I might be intensely passionate, but I'm big on honesty...

https://forums.hfboards.com/threads/tavares-and-the-excuses.2397739/post-137083745

And, I can't let this one go, sorry:

"Because losing him for nothing will set them back literally years, and I’d rather win the Cup without Tavares then be part of another rebuild."

Just had to highlight a post from you speaking negatively of a rebuild.

Of course don't let that go. What does it tell you that back then I didn't want to do a rebuild...But now I do? It means I'm not putting on blinders and only advocating for one thing all of the time. I just each situation invidiually and based on all the information we can gather, then I form an opinion on what to do. And when I do that then I'm very passionate about it.

Back in 2017-2018 the Isles core was all in their mid/young 20's. Now that's something you build around. Now I'd argue the core is not only worse, but much older.

Back then it was time to build...Now it's time to rebuild (and 1000% time to get rid of a GM who put us in a worse situation than when we started - With a garth snow drafted team).

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

I've outlined it in other posts but here's a reminder that Lou is gonna have so much to do this offseason just trying to retain all the important RFAs (Dobson, Holmstrom, Romanov, and Tsyplakov) and our own important UFAs (Palms & TDA) that he'll have hardly any time to be trading guys off this team (in a buyer's market no less), much less finding ways to upgrade the team.

And don't forget that if he DOES re-sign the six aforementioned players, they're likely adding up to upwards of 26 MM per between the six of them.

Our grim reality is that if Lou really does want to do anything he said after the trade deadline (which, uh, wasn't the first time we heard him talking like that), he's prolly got no choice but to buy out a player or two (Mayfield, Engvall) AND pay a few teams in order to move other "deadweight" (Pageau, Pulock, Pelech).

I don't see it all happening, to be honest.

But it's Lou, so I can't imagine him knowing any other way of even start getting out of this mess.

And mind you, I haven't even mentioned the situations revolving around messers Varlamov, Duclair, Boqvist, Perunovich, and Reilly, much less prospects like RFAs Bolduc and Beckman.

***
At the moment, sadly, moving Dobson looks to be about the only really promising way of opening things up a bit for next season's needs while actually getting something back in the process.

It will likely require letting the trade partner come to terms with Dobson first.

***
Having 15.5 MM per wrapped up in messers Pulock, Pelech, and Mayfield until 2029 is simply BRUTAL!

 

[periferal]

I've outlined it in other posts but here's a reminder that Lou is gonna have so much to do this offseason just trying to retain all the important RFAs (Dobson, Holmstrom, Romanov, and Tsyplakov) and our own important UFAs (Palms & TDA) that he'll have hardly any time to be trading guys off this team (in a buyer's market no less), much less finding ways to upgrade the team.

And don't forget that if he DOES re-sign the six aforementioned players, they're likely adding up to upwards of 26 MM per between the six of them.

Our grim reality is that if Lou really does want to do anything he said after the trade deadline (which, uh, wasn't the first time we heard him talking like that), he's prolly got no choice but to buy out a player or two (Mayfield, Engvall) AND paying a few teams in order to move other "deadweight" (Pageau, Pulock, Pelech).

I don't see it all happening, to be honest.

But it's Lou, so I can't imagine him knowing any other way of even start getting out of this mess.

And mind you, I haven't even mentioned the situations revolving around messers Varlamov, Duclair, Boqvist, Perunovich, and Reilly, much less prospects like RFAs Bolduc and Beckman.

***
At the moment, sadly, moving Dobson looks to be about the only really promising way of opening things up a bit for next season's needs while actually getting something back in the process.

It will likely require letting the trade partner come to terms with Dobson first.

***
Having 15.5 MM wrapped up in messers Pulock, Pelech, and Mayfield until 2029 is simply BRUTAL!

And you also didn't mention that we'll be without Nelson so that leaves a hole at with 2nd line center unless you break up Barzal and Horvat - But then you need another (very good) winger.

Also would make sense to trade Pageau to open up 5M, but then of course...Now you have a hole at #3 center.

The entire roster construction by Lou requires robbing Peter to pay Paul. End of day it's going to net out where we find ourselves with virtually the exact same record one year from now (and could conceivably be notable worse).

For those out there that refuse a rebuild at any cost, I'm legit curious...What if Lou leads this team to such embarrassment in the next few seasons that, despite Lou trying to win now, we wind up picking in the top 5 multiple years in a row? Would that be considered a "rebuild" to you...Or just a "very aggressive retool"?

 

[periferal]

 

[Throttle]

Ha, another letter. Worked great for the Rangers…

 

[miscs75]

Ha, another letter. Worked great for the Rangers…

Tom Wilson wasn’t mean to the Islanders this year to warrant such a letter. We could always have the Max Domi or Paul Cotter is mean letter though.

 

[Lek]

I guess because really I don't know but, nor care?...what if we were just to let a few of these higher salary guys go for nothing.... Let somebody think they're getting a steal .... Just get them off the books ..... addition by subtraction?

Just a far out thought, as I sit out front sipping a Revolver

 

[periferal]

Ha, another letter. Worked great for the Rangers…

Maybe instead of your non-productive sarcasm, you should actually root for another letter...

 

[doublechili]

For those out there that refuse a rebuild at any cost, I'm legit curious...What if Lou leads this team to such embarrassment in the next few seasons that, despite Lou trying to win now, we wind up picking in the top 5 multiple years in a row? Would that be considered a "rebuild" to you...Or just a "very aggressive retool"?

Being a bottom rung team, not trading youth for vets, keeping your picks and drafting high, maybe dealing some expiring contracts for futures. Not sure that needs a name - that's just what bad teams have done for ages. But if you're doing that, are you really "trying to win now"?

A "very aggressive retool" is not something we'll see from Lou.

 

[LeapOnOver]

I'd honestly suspect that they try to trade Pageau too but that got shot down and leaked. Lou Lamoriello is not good at this rebuilding thing. Sure he got Cal Ritchie but then he lets go of Kylington for basically cash. This team really cannot find a way out of its own incompetence, especially when it comes to the future. Palmieri serves no purpose here, you need picks. You literally could stockpile picks and that would work but nah, Lamoriello wants bodies instead. Stupid.

If they really think this is a playoff team, remove Sorokin for a month and see what happens. You trust a 37 year old Varlamov?

You mean Hogberg?