Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

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It’s probably your insistence on trading him for EP40. Oof, bad look.

Barzal doesn’t get $9m if Lou brought in any semblance of talent to the roster over the last 7 years. And if he brought in some decent players Barzals numbers are probably closer to a point per game and paid on par.

Doesn’t look like Horvat will crack 55 and he’s only getting paid $650k less. I guess it’s the face off intangibles that keeps him from the same criticism.

That said, this team sucks. If Horvat and Barzal are your best forwards you ain’t winning anything, and that’s on the GM not the players.
 
It’s probably your insistence on trading him for EP40. Oof, bad look.

Barzal doesn’t get $9m if Lou brought in any semblance of talent to the roster over the last 7 years. And if he brought in some decent players Barzals numbers are probably closer to a point per game and paid on par.

Doesn’t look like Horvat will crack 55 and he’s only getting paid $650k less. I guess it’s the face off intangibles that keeps him from the same criticism.

That said, this team sucks. If Horvat and Barzal are your best forwards you ain’t winning anything, and that’s on the GM not the players.

A few things on why Horvat escapes criticism:

1) We've seen less of him. Right or wrong, how frequently we see a player impacts how we view them. We've seen Barzal his entire career, but Horvat for just 2.5 seasons.

2) Horvat was never billed as an elite tier player the same way Barzal was/is. He's consistently been a 50-60 point player throughout his career. Barzal is always spoken about as if he's a top tier player but he doesn't produce consistently enough to be considered in that grouping.

3) Styles of play and unrealized potential. Barzal has the tools to be more than what he is, and that's on him. His refusal to shoot the puck or avoiding certain types of play make him more frustrating to watch, even if he is more talented. Horvat scores more goals, doesn't shy away from contact, is over 50% on faceoffs, and to me is a more consistent all around hockey player even when he isn't producing offense.

Edit: None of this means that Horvat, or any other player, should be exempt from criticism. His dry spell during the past couple months has been bad and that cannot happen moving forward.
 
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It’s probably your insistence on trading him for EP40. Oof, bad look.

Barzal doesn’t get $9m if Lou brought in any semblance of talent to the roster over the last 7 years. And if he brought in some decent players Barzals numbers are probably closer to a point per game and paid on par.

Doesn’t look like Horvat will crack 55 and he’s only getting paid $650k less. I guess it’s the face off intangibles that keeps him from the same criticism.

That said, this team sucks. If Horvat and Barzal are your best forwards you ain’t winning anything, and that’s on the GM not the players.
I agree the GM needs to go but shouldn’t players who under perform be held accountable? Neither Barzal or Horvat are earning their contracts and to say they need better players resolves them of any responsibility for their poor play. Your 2 highest paid forwards should make the players around them better and not the opposite.
 
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A few things on why Horvat escapes criticism:

1) We've seen less of him. Right or wrong, how frequently we see a player impacts how we view them. We've seen Barzal his entire career, but Horvat for just 2.5 seasons.

2) Horvat was never billed as an elite tier player the same way Barzal was/is. He's consistently been a 50-60 point player throughout his career. Barzal is always spoken about as if he's a top tier player but he doesn't produce consistently enough to be considered in that grouping.

3) Styles of play and unrealized potential. Barzal has the tools to be more than what he is, and that's on him. His refusal to shoot the puck or avoiding certain types of play make him more frustrating to watch, even if he is more talented. Horvat scores more goals, doesn't shy away from contact, is over 50% on faceoffs, and to me is a more consistent all around hockey player even when he isn't producing offense.
1. That’s fair

2. No one on the national level talks about Barzal being a top tier player. It’s just that he’s the Islanders best player so they talk about him on broadcasts. No different than Butch having to praise Fasching, Cizikas, Maclean, Duclair, Engvall, Tsyplakov etc on a nightly basis. It’s just to fill air time. No Icelander fans I know consider him elite nor do any on this board. He’s a very good player. That’s it.

3. Meh. Barzal doesn’t shy away from contact, he gets dirtier in the corners fishing for pucks than Horvat does. Horvats D zone play is atrocious.

Is what it is. Im just disappointed in Lou for never improving the team
 
2. No one on the national level talks about Barzal being a top tier player. It’s just that he’s the Islanders best player so they talk about him on broadcasts. No different than Butch having to praise Fasching, Cizikas, Maclean, Duclair, Engvall, Tsyplakov etc on a nightly basis. It’s just to fill air time. No Icelander fans I know consider him elite nor do any on this board. He’s a very good player. That’s it.

I'm not referring to broadcasts, I'm only speaking about these boards.

Plenty of people on here view him as an elite player or talent and are unwilling to acknowledge his shortcomings, viewing any and all criticisms as unfair or unjust simply because he is the most talented player on the team.

3. Meh. Barzal doesn’t shy away from contact, he gets dirtier in the corners fishing for pucks than Horvat does. Horvats D zone play is atrocious.

I don't find that to be true about the corners, and it's certainly not true if we're counting going towards the front of the net and taking abuse. Barzal stays on the perimeter and will often avoid contact, he also doesn't throw hits often.

I've got issues with both of them in the D zone at times.
 
It’s probably your insistence on trading him for EP40. Oof, bad look.

Barzal doesn’t get $9m if Lou brought in any semblance of talent to the roster over the last 7 years. And if he brought in some decent players Barzals numbers are probably closer to a point per game and paid on par.

Doesn’t look like Horvat will crack 55 and he’s only getting paid $650k less. I guess it’s the face off intangibles that keeps him from the same criticism.

That said, this team sucks. If Horvat and Barzal are your best forwards you ain’t winning anything, and that’s on the GM not the players.
As opposed to saying trade him for Tkachuk a long time ago? Or trade him for McTavish a long time ago too?

Horvat was never an elite player and is being paid the UFA AND Islanders premium ticket.

Any GM of the Isles is going to face a hard time to win, it’s not limited to Lou.

Chicago needs nhl players, maybe Lou can ship Barzal to Chicago to play with Bedard, Isles can get picks/prospects and flip them for a player.
 
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And what true contender is that? Toronto and TB are the only contenders that have $9M 3rd best forwards. And TBs is a UFA contract. So, that argument fails pretty quickly, but ok.
Washington, Florida and Dallas all have their third best forwards in the mid to high 8's, so of the top 8 teams in the league, 5 of them have their third best forward within .5 million of what Barzal makes. Not sure this is as strong of an argument as you think it is.
 
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As opposed to saying trade him for Tkachuk a long time ago? Or trade him for McTavish a long time ago too?

Horvat was never an elite player and is being paid the UFA AND Islanders premium ticket.

Any GM of the Isles is going to face a hard time to win, it’s not limited to Lou.

Chicago needs nhl players, maybe Lou can ship Barzal to Chicago to play with Bedard, Isles can get picks/prospects and flip them for a player.
Tkachuk doesn’t turn this sad sack of a team into anything. Would still be spinning their wheels circling around 8th place every season.

Adding Tkachuk to a team that Barzal is on? That could work.

I’m all for trading Barzal assuming it’s to start a rebuild. Replacing Barzal with any one player is not going to make this team any better.
 
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Washington, Florida and Dallas all have their third best forwards in the mid to high 8's, so of the top 8 teams in the league, 5 of them have their third best forward within .5 million of what Barzal makes. Not sure this is as strong of an argument as you think it is.

It used to be a bigger deal but with the cap rising each year it becomes less and less so. The cap hit isn't as important to me as the overall strength of the roster. Can we keep all of Barzal, Dobson, Horvat, and Sorokin, and get better in a short period of time (2 or 3 seasons at most)? Does it make more sense to move some of them or all of them to get more competitive quicker?

I have no doubts that a team can win with any of those players, but can the Islanders win with all of them?
 
1. That’s fair

2. No one on the national level talks about Barzal being a top tier player. It’s just that he’s the Islanders best player so they talk about him on broadcasts. No different than Butch having to praise Fasching, Cizikas, Maclean, Duclair, Engvall, Tsyplakov etc on a nightly basis. It’s just to fill air time. No Icelander fans I know consider him elite nor do any on this board. He’s a very good player. That’s it.

3. Meh. Barzal doesn’t shy away from contact, he gets dirtier in the corners fishing for pucks than Horvat does. Horvats D zone play is atrocious.

Is what it is. Im just disappointed in Lou for never improving the team
In a year #13's salary will be a bargain. As Mr hand used to say. Are you all on dope? Barzal would be paid what a#2 or #3'option would be.
 
It used to be a bigger deal but with the cap rising each year it becomes less and less so. The cap hit isn't as important to me as the overall strength of the roster. Can we keep all of Barzal, Dobson, Horvat, and Sorokin, and get better in a short period of time (2 or 3 seasons at most)? Does it make more sense to move some of them or all of them to get more competitive quicker?

I have no doubts that a team can win with any of those players, but can the Islanders win with all of them?
You're spot on, once again; and I think they could be competitive with those four - if not for all the other dead weight on the roster. Pelech, Pulock and Mayfield taking up 15.5 million hurts far more than Barzal and Horvat taking up 17.6, as does Duclair, Engvall, Pageau and Cizikas costing 14 million. The way the money is allocated on this roster is the problem - too much is spent on mediocre talent and not enough on top end talent.
 
Washington, Florida and Dallas all have their third best forwards in the mid to high 8's, so of the top 8 teams in the league, 5 of them have their third best forward within .5 million of what Barzal makes. Not sure this is as strong of an argument as you think it is.
Why don’t we go lower? I mean if you have to lower the number to make argument…
 
In a year #13's salary will be a bargain. As Mr hand used to say. Are you all on dope? Barzal would be paid what a#2 or #3'option would be.
It’s always a bargain when the cap rises… when do the isles get the benefit of his actual play?
 
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Why don’t we go lower? I mean if you have to lower the number to make argument…
Lol - ridiculous response, which really shouldn't surprise me. I figured within 5% of his salary seemed reasonable, that's a pretty standard threshold but I guess if we're limited to an exact contract match we can't compare Barzal with anyone since he's the only one with that exact salary.
 
Lol - ridiculous response, which really shouldn't surprise me. I figured within 5% of his salary seemed reasonable, that's a pretty standard threshold but I guess if we're limited to an exact contract match we can't compare Barzal with anyone since he's the only one with that exact salary.
Well, that’s your rationale to make adjustments to fit your narrative.
 
Well, that’s your rationale to make adjustments to fit your narrative.
nice response - the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". At the risk of assuming you are capable of a rational discussion of Barzal - what is the legitimate salary threshold for comparison with Barzal? We've established it can't be exact contract match since there's only one, and you seem to think give or take 5% is making adjustments to fit narratives.
 
nice response - the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". At the risk of assuming you are capable of a rational discussion of Barzal - what is the legitimate salary threshold for comparison with Barzal? We've established it can't be exact contract match since there's only one, and you seem to think give or take 5% is making adjustments to fit narratives.
Nope, I just responded to the initial assertion that he’s a top 3 forward on contending teams. Looking at the cap hit of those contending teams and that statement is inaccurate. You lowered the cap hit - not me - in an attempt to help the initial statement. And now you are looking to expand the results even further to help your rationalize you lowering the cap hit.

That’s pretty much what’s going on here. Keep going though.
 

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