Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

[Throttle]

The Rangers tore it down, rebuilt, and here they are scrambling again after not winning anything.

But they wrote a letter to their fans, so it’s ok.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

There are no guaranteed paths back to contention, as the team's stuck in perpetual rebuild clearly show. So, there's room for different approaches depending on what comes available. The obvious starting point is moving the UFA's Nelson and Palms and then seeing how things play out and who else becomes available. A full rebuild of the sort advocated by some is a risky path and I would think starts this summer with a trade of Sorokin. It makes zero sense to commit to a rebuild without moving the one piece that likely has pretty good value and will not be contributing when the rebuild comes to fruition.

This is absolutely true.

But I think we can all see the guaranteed path of this current roster of players. Something must be done.

Trigger #1 pulled in acquiring Horvat
Trigger #2 was pulled - firing Lame Lambert / hiring Roy
Trigger #3 is....offloading UFA's?

Either way Lou is running out of triggers.

 

[Lek]

Roy saying he should have put more emphasis on special teams in training is baffling to me.

Could he mean that he should have personally done so instead of leaving it to his assistants?...if so, less baffling and more so an admission that he found out his assistants are not capable of doing the job?

 

[gordie43]

Could he mean that he should have personally done so instead of leaving it to his assistants?...if so, less baffling and more so an admission that he found out his assistants are not capable of doing the job?

The numbers speak for themselves and it’s not just a one off it’s multiple seasons with historically bad special teams. I don’t know how Roy missed that if he was watching this team.

 

[MJF]

I guess it depends on how you define a retool

Oh no. Not again

 

[PK Cronin]

I guess it is "simple" if you characterize it that way. But it's more complicated than that IMO, and there are more than those two options (tinkering with a couple of roster spots versus a tear-down rebuild). I think the way to go in the modern NHL with a salary cap and players potentially becoming UFAs in their 20s is to constantly retool to maximize asset value and replenish the pipeline. Lou is not a "new NHL" GM in that he moves at a glacial pace and was great back in the pre-Cap days when you could slowly build a roster. Now you need an active, intelligent GM who can constantly retool. IMO, anyway.

On a related note, the NYR got praise for their "rebuild" that enabled them to draft high for a time. But it's questionable whether Lafreniere is an elite/needle-moving talent, and Kakko was just traded for next to nothing. Kakko was taken 2nd overalll. The following players were taken after him that year:

4th Byram
6th Seider
7th Cozens
12th Boldy (maybe the 2d best player from that draft after #1 Hughes)
15th Caulfield
32nd Pinto

So, there's no guarantee a top 5 pick is going to get you a stud, and there's similarly no guarantee that you can't build a contender if you're picking later. Obviously the odds are better with high picks, but the key thing is to have the right GM and scouting staff.

The Rangers "rebuild" is a bad talking point for those advocating for one. Did anyone here using it as an example of a high profile team rebuilding actually look at it? It wasn't a traditional rebuild by any means, they didn't tear it all the way down, and I'd make the claim that it wasn't a rebuild at all.

I know that you know this, both from previous conversations and the fact that the word "rebuild" is placed in quotation marks.

The front office of the Rangers penned that letter in February of 2018.

Comparing the 2017-18 and 2018-19 rosters, the following players were missing from the 2018-19 New York Rangers roster:

1. Paul Carey
2. Daniel Catenacci
3. Adam Cracknell
4. David Desharnais
5. Michael Grabner
6. Brandon Halverson
7. Nick Holden
8. Peter Holland
9. Steven Kampfer
10. Ryan McDonagh
11. J.T. Miller
12. Rick Nash
13. Rob O'Gara
14. Ondřej Pavelec
15. Ryan Sproul

New additions to the 2018-19 roster included:

1. Connor Brickley
2. Fredrik Claesson
3. Timothy Gettinger
4. Libor Hájek
5. Brett Howden
6. Brendan Lemieux
7. Ryan Lindgren
8. Adam McQuaid
9. Ryan Strome

So the notable players at that time that were moved on from were McDonagh and Nash. J.T. Miller wasn't an established star in the league yet and everyone else was meh.

Now let's go one year further, 2019-20:

Comparing the 2018-19 and 2019-20 New York Rangers rosters, the following players were missing from the 2019-20 roster:

1. Matt Beleskey
2. Connor Brickley
3. Fredrik Claesson
4. Kevin Hayes
5. Adam McQuaid
6. Neal Pionk
7. Kevin Shattenkirk
8. Jimmy Vesey
9. Mats Zuccarello

New additions to the 2019-20 roster included:

1. Adam Fox
2. Julien Gauthier
3. Micheal Haley
4. Kaapo Kakko
5. Greg McKegg
6. Artemi Panarin
7. Igor Shesterkin
8. Jacob Trouba

So they lost Zuccarello and that's pretty much it when it comes to notable players, but they added Adam Fox, Panarin, and Trouba that year, to go along with Shesterkin (who they already had in the organization).

K'Andre Miller and Alexis Lafrenière (and they won the draft lottery to get him) are the only two draft picks from around that time to be making any sort of impact for that team.

Using the Rangers as an example of a rebuild is disingenuous or ignorant to what actually happened. The fact that they put out a letter saying they were going to rebuild doesn't mean they actually did. It was more akin to what most would consider a re-tool, aided by winning the draft lottery and, more importantly, being a desirable destination for players to end up. Immediately adding Panarin, Trouba, and Fox undid any plans to rebuild. I'm not advocating for or against a rebuild or retool in this post. Also worth noting that they're right next to the Islanders in the standings despite those things.

 

[Lek]

The numbers speak for themselves and it’s not just a one off it’s multiple seasons with historically bad special teams. I don’t know how Roy missed that if he was watching this team.

Just listened...he owns up to it, though thinking his personal overview was working more on the overall game and transformation into a full year. Happens to the best of coaches. Still believe he is the long term answer.

 

[gordie43]

Just a little nugget for the rebuild audience, as if the isles history wasn’t enough…



Something in this team needs to change but a fire sale ain’t it. Shake up, dealing a Nelson or Palmeri, which I’m not sure is the answer since both players are productive and their replacements are not in the organization, and getting a pics back could be the spark?

 

[PK Cronin]

Just a little nugget for the rebuild audience, as if the isles history wasn’t enough…



Something in this team needs to change but a fire sale ain’t it. Shake up, dealing a Nelson or Palmeri, which I’m not sure is the answer since both players are productive and their replacements are not in the organization, and getting a pics back could be the spark?

I think that you have to trade Nelson and Palmieri, despite losing their production, because their production is coming to an end no matter what. The team hasn't been able to win with either of them and they could recoup valuable assets for the future (picks or players). It would also shake up the room a bit by moving a guy like Nelson.

Best case scenario each of those players are productive for another year or two, are the Islanders going to suddenly become a more complete team within that time frame where keeping them around is worthwhile? The answer is probably not, so they should be moved ASAP to guarantee the best return possible.

 

[The Real JT]

Today’s happy thought.

I was at work and saw a guy with a Rags t shirt under his flannel shirt. He looked sad.

That’s all Isles fans.

 

[Big L]

Pretty sure Sorokin has a no movement clause, and can’t be waived or traded or sent down or anything unless he wants to. FYI for those in the trade Sorokin section.

Today’s happy thought.

I was at work and saw a guy with a Rags t shirt under his flannel shirt. He looked sad.

That’s all Isles fans.

Along those same lines, when out I used to see patriots hats, jerseys, etc all the time for over a decade. Now I don’t see a soul wearing pats gear anymore.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Pretty sure Sorokin has a no movement clause, and can’t be waived or traded or sent down or anything unless he wants to. FYI for those in the trade Sorokin section.


Along those same lines, when out I used to see patriots hats, jerseys, etc all the time for over a decade. Now I don’t see a soul wearing pats gear anymore.

Spoiled bitchass front-runners.

I still wear my Isles gear proudly.

 

[WangMustGo]

I think that you have to trade Nelson and Palmieri, despite losing their production, because their production is coming to an end no matter what. The team hasn't been able to win with either of them and they could recoup valuable assets for the future (picks or players). It would also shake up the room a bit by moving a guy like Nelson.

Best case scenario each of those players are productive for another year or two, are the Islanders going to suddenly become a more complete team within that time frame where keeping them around is worthwhile? The answer is probably not, so they should be moved ASAP to guarantee the best return possible.

Agreed, this team needs a retool. Burning it to the ground makes no sense. For every successful rebuild there are 5 failures. I want nothing to do with becoming the next Detroit or Buffalo.

Move Nelson and Palms, next year move Lee and Pageau. Maybe in the season move Pulock or Pelech. Restock the farm over the next couple of years and give management proper ammunition to make smart moves.

 

[Throttle]

Pretty sure Sorokin has a no movement clause, and can’t be waived or traded or sent down or anything unless he wants to. FYI for those in the trade Sorokin section.


Along those same lines, when out I used to see patriots hats, jerseys, etc all the time for over a decade. Now I don’t see a soul wearing pats gear anymore.

It’s incredibly difficult to find a goalie like Sorokin. I’m not a 100% sold on his playoff performances, however, when healthy he’s a top 5 goalie in the game.

Unless he wants out or you no longer believe in him, then he stays. A majority of the league is on the hunt for a goalie like him, except, goalie values traditionally don’t return the equivalent of a top forward or defenseman.

 

[Arsenalogist24]

I think that you have to trade Nelson and Palmieri, despite losing their production, because their production is coming to an end no matter what. The team hasn't been able to win with either of them and they could recoup valuable assets for the future (picks or players). It would also shake up the room a bit by moving a guy like Nelson.

Best case scenario each of those players are productive for another year or two, are the Islanders going to suddenly become a more complete team within that time frame where keeping them around is worthwhile? The answer is probably not, so they should be moved ASAP to guarantee the best return possible.

They’ve also been playing so great lately…

Nelson and Palms, great memories but it’s time to move on to a new generation of Islanders

 

[MarsTBOW]

How many think Hutton is a serviceable #7?

 

[IslesNorway]

I think it's a strange decision to keep George ahead of Hutton. He should be playing big minutes in Bridgeport rather than sit in the stands watching the big boys play. Hutton should be doing that.

 

[gordie43]

I think it's a strange decision to keep George ahead of Hutton. He should be playing big minutes in Bridgeport rather than sit in the stands watching the big boys play. Hutton should be doing that.

Prob don’t want George to be around a worse dumpster fire in Bridgeport

 

[Chockey22]

It’s incredibly difficult to find a goalie like Sorokin. I’m not a 100% sold on his playoff performances, however, when healthy he’s a top 5 goalie in the game.

Unless he wants out or you no longer believe in him, then he stays. A majority of the league is on the hunt for a goalie like him, except, goalie values traditionally don’t return the equivalent of a top forward or defenseman.

I personally don't think Sorokin is as good as you think he is, and certainly not at his current price tag, but I agree that he is in the upper half of starting goalies and all teams want to find a starting goalie like him. I also agree that goalies rarely bring great returns in trades.
However, my point was simply that if people are on the rebuild wagon, surely one of the first moves should involve Sorokin. He'll be 30 this year and prevents the team from bottoming out. If you run Varly and Hogberg for a year, I can pretty much guarantee this team finishes much lower in the standings than keeping Sorokin.

To be clear, I am not firmly in either the retool or rebuild camp, I am a pragmatic rebuilder that would prefer exploring options as they come available. I do think it's time to move Nelson and Palmieri, and if Lou could get anything for vets like Varly, Pelech, Cizikas or Pageau at the deadline, they should go to. Losing those guys opens up a lot of cap space and I'd be willing to bet has no impact on the quality of team we ice right now.

Beyond that, I think the best course of action is to see what draft pick the Isles end up with, see what the trade market is like for our players, and see if whatever GM we have (hopefully not Lou) can make a savvy trade and lure a big time UFA (as unlikely as that may be).

 

[iggy]

I personally don't think Sorokin is as good as you think he is, and certainly not at his current price tag, but I agree that he is in the upper half of starting goalies and all teams want to find a starting goalie like him. I also agree that goalies rarely bring great returns in trades.
However, my point was simply that if people are on the rebuild wagon, surely one of the first moves should involve Sorokin. He'll be 30 this year and prevents the team from bottoming out. If you run Varly and Hogberg for a year, I can pretty much guarantee this team finishes much lower in the standings than keeping Sorokin.

To be clear, I am not firmly in either the retool or rebuild camp, I am a pragmatic rebuilder that would prefer exploring options as they come available. I do think it's time to move Nelson and Palmieri, and if Lou could get anything for vets like Varly, Pelech, Cizikas or Pageau at the deadline, they should go to. Losing those guys opens up a lot of cap space and I'd be willing to bet has no impact on the quality of team we ice right now.

Beyond that, I think the best course of action is to see what draft pick the Isles end up with, see what the trade market is like for our players, and see if whatever GM we have (hopefully not Lou) can make a savvy trade and lure a big time UFA (as unlikely as that may be).

Bull shit. Team sucks in front of him. Defense sucks in front of him. PK is 32nd in the league. Worst. On a solid team he is top 5 easily.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I think I can speak for anyone advocating for a tear down, not one of us is harboring any illusions of guaranteed success. We know that rebuilds are risky and require a combination of smarts and luck, so please, stop writing "there are no guarantees" or printing lists of draft busts. We know.

Here's what is guaranteed; doing what Lou has been doing and will seemingly continue to do is a guarantee of continued failure. To be a great team you need cornerstone elite players and being a middle of the pack team ad infinitum, unattractive to FAs and unable to draft in top 5 position ever, you will never get you there.

 

[The Real JT]

I personally don't think Sorokin is as good as you think he is, and certainly not at his current price tag, but I agree that he is in the upper half of starting goalies and all teams want to find a starting goalie like him. I also agree that goalies rarely bring great returns in trades.
However, my point was simply that if people are on the rebuild wagon, surely one of the first moves should involve Sorokin. He'll be 30 this year and prevents the team from bottoming out. If you run Varly and Hogberg for a year, I can pretty much guarantee this team finishes much lower in the standings than keeping Sorokin.

To be clear, I am not firmly in either the retool or rebuild camp, I am a pragmatic rebuilder that would prefer exploring options as they come available. I do think it's time to move Nelson and Palmieri, and if Lou could get anything for vets like Varly, Pelech, Cizikas or Pageau at the deadline, they should go to. Losing those guys opens up a lot of cap space and I'd be willing to bet has no impact on the quality of team we ice right now.

Beyond that, I think the best course of action is to see what draft pick the Isles end up with, see what the trade market is like for our players, and see if whatever GM we have (hopefully not Lou) can make a savvy trade and lure a big time UFA (as unlikely as that may be).

Couldn’t disagree more regarding Sorokin.

I’m far from the eternal optimist regarding the Isles roster but our goalie is a stud. End of story for me.

In no way do I want a tear down, but in my mind every single player except for our goalie is trade bait. Some picks coming back would be nice but hockey trades for established players should be the priority.

 

[miscs75]

How many think Hutton is a serviceable #7?

Serviceable is one way to describe him. I don’t mind him but he doesn’t do anything flashy to make his game stick out.