Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

WangMustGo

Registered User
Mar 31, 2008
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No chance...? I certainly hope you're right, but I looked through the entire league and when you take into account ownership, city, quality of life, taxes, etc, there's only a few teams that jump out as definitely a worse "destination" than the Isles...

  • Buffalo
  • Ottawa
  • Columbus
  • Edmonton (honestly probably shouldn't be on this list right now as long as they have McDavid/are Cup contenders)
  • Calgary
  • Winnipeg

Every other city I think is in the ballpark of the Isles if not better. And remember...You have to look at this through the eyes of a 20-40 year old NHL player...Not from your perspective.

Right now I think most players would prefer to play on the isles over all of those teams plus San Jose, Anaheim, and Utah. Even the teams you listed have signed Giroux and Guadreau over the past couple of years. There is no reason we can’t sign a player like that.

I think the isles are a middle of the pack destination. Never going to by NYR or Boston, but certainly not bottom of the barrel.
 

periferal

Registered User
Jul 5, 2007
29,085
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Right now I think most players would prefer to play on the isles over all of those teams plus San Jose, Anaheim, and Utah. Even the teams you listed have signed Giroux and Guadreau over the past couple of years. There is no reason we can’t sign a player like that.

I think the isles are a middle of the pack destination. Never going to by NYR or Boston, but certainly not bottom of the barrel.

If what you say is true then Lou looks even worse for not signing literally any quality, much less great, UFAs.
 

seabass45

Registered User
Jan 12, 2007
8,257
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You're right, totally forgot. It's another "all in the family" signing though. Has Lou signed a UFA yet that hasn't previously played in an organization lead by him or Roy?

Edit: Here are your answers:

- Lehner (1.5M x 1),
- Filppula (2.75M x 1),
- Fasching (750k x1)
- Gauthier (787k x 2)

So about 6M in "new blood" over 6 seasons. Not exactly screaming destination spot
Varlamov.

I don't understand why we're ignoring trade-and-sign players here, it represents a substantial portion of the cap and they're not exactly depth players. Horvat, Palmieri, and Pageau all fall in this category, making a total of 18.5 mil against the cap next season. Two of them scored 30+ goals last season. Why don't they count? Like who cares that they're UFAs or not? You convinced a player to stick around for more than a half season. They could have walked to UFA and signed elsewhere.
 

seabass45

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Jan 12, 2007
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Even the teams you listed have signed Giroux and Guadreau over the past couple of years. There is no reason we can’t sign a player like that.
The reason for Gaudreau was cap space. We didn't have enough at the time and couldn't move anyone to make it work. He likely wanted Philly, *they* couldn't make it work either. He chose one of the two teams that had the space and fit his needs (NJ being the other, that spot would eventually go to Timo Meier). And if he put up the numbers here that he's currently putting up in Columbus, we'd be trying to get rid of him instead of Pageau.
 
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islesfan3913

Registered User
Apr 5, 2011
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Varlamov.

I don't understand why we're ignoring trade-and-sign players here, it represents a substantial portion of the cap and they're not exactly depth players. Horvat, Palmieri, and Pageau all fall in this category, making a total of 18.5 mil against the cap next season. Two of them scored 30+ goals last season. Why don't they count? Like who cares that they're UFAs or not? You convinced a player to stick around for more than a half season. They could have walked to UFA and signed elsewhere.
I think it’s fair to separate the two for two reasons. First, a player getting traded and essentially forced to go to another team and then re-signing with said team is different than a player choosing to go to a team completely on their own. I think there’s a lot of truth to players liking it here once they arrive, but that’s not quite the same as being a destination players would choose to go to. And that leads into the second reason which is that re-signing a player you traded for required giving up assets for said player whereas a free agent is just costing you money, and that’s a big reason why we’ve been short on both draft picks and prospects in recent years. When you can’t lure talent through free agency, you have to resort to using anything of value you can to get talent which can cost you in the long run since you’re losing possible roster players and also leaking assets for future deals.
 
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seabass45

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Jan 12, 2007
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I think it’s fair to separate the two for two reasons. First, a player getting traded and essentially forced to go to another team and then re-signing with said team is different than a player choosing to go to a team completely on their own. I think there’s a lot of truth to players liking it here once they arrive, but that’s not quite the same as being a destination players would choose to go to. And that leads into the second reason which is that re-signing a player you traded for required giving up assets for said player whereas a free agent is just costing you money, and that’s a big reason why we’ve been short on both draft picks and prospects in recent years. When you can’t lure talent through free agency, you have to resort to using anything of value you can to get talent which can cost you in the long run since you’re losing possible roster players and also leaking assets for future deals.
But why wait until UFA? You’re competing with every other team, you might not have the cap space to pull off the exact move you want, and there’s a good chance that the guy you end up with is Andrew Ladd, all to say that you didn’t strike out on July 1. It’s stupid and some of these teams are going to have regrets about the deals they put out. I don’t disagree with the problem with the prospect pool but this fanbase whines and complains about needing good players and then when we get them it’s “well now we don’t have draft picks”. They wanted a top four LD so we have Alexander Romanov for potentially the next decade. They wanted someone to play with Barzal so he got Bo Horvat. And somehow we’re still getting this “boo hoo we’re not a destination spot” routine. Who cares? You got players to stick around. As a result you don’t have room to make other major moves and you’re reduced to making fantasy trades involving other guys you convinced to stay.
 

impaaaaaact

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Jan 14, 2014
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Varlamov.

I don't understand why we're ignoring trade-and-sign players here, it represents a substantial portion of the cap and they're not exactly depth players. Horvat, Palmieri, and Pageau all fall in this category, making a total of 18.5 mil against the cap next season. Two of them scored 30+ goals last season. Why don't they count? Like who cares that they're UFAs or not? You convinced a player to stick around for more than a half season. They could have walked to UFA and signed elsewhere.
It matters if we have to give up picks to get a player here beforehand. Those are assets that we need to give up and other premium destination teams don’t. That puts us behind the 8 ball from the jump.

Other teams that just sign players cleanly from UFA still have those assets. Whether they’re used in other deals to bring in additional talent or are used to draft players that eventually help the team, it’s a significant leg up that snowballs over time.
 

Chapin Landvogt

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Jul 4, 2002
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You're right, totally forgot. It's another "all in the family" signing though. Has Lou signed a UFA yet that hasn't previously played in an organization lead by him or Roy?

Since Komarov was originally mentioned in this strain, I'd say his prior employment under Lou in Toronto clearly meant he was an "all in the family" signing too.
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,960
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I'd say we're probably lower middle, but when you have this many teams in front of you you're fighting an uphill battle.

- Original 6 Teams (Toronto, MTL, Rangers, Boston, Blackhawks, Red Wings)
- Teams with Tax advantages (Stars, Vegas, Predators, Panthers, Lightning)
- Teams with Legends/Superstars (Edmonton, Colorado, Pittsburgh, Washington)
- Teams with legitimate cup aspirations (Carolina, Vancouver, Winnipeg)

Maybe the Wings and Winnipeg are debatable right now, but that would still leave us behind 15 or so teams, and doesn't take into consideration that we have the second highest taxes out of any state. And I think that there's a legitimate argument that if you're not in the top half it doesn't make much of a difference.

The last UFA I remember Lou signing that wasn't previously acquired by the draft, trade, Europe or waivers before Duclair was Leo Komarov... and that was for too long and for too much money. Even Duclair alleges he signed because he got a call from his former coach (guess he didn't want to call Marchessault?!?!). So even if we're no longer a last resort, it's not like we're some premium destination.

I would object to a number of teams on that list (especially the Canadian ones, it’s clear no one wants to play in Canada).
 

seabass45

Registered User
Jan 12, 2007
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It matters if we have to give up picks to get a player here beforehand. Those are assets that we need to give up and other premium destination teams don’t. That puts us behind the 8 ball from the jump.

Other teams that just sign players cleanly from UFA still have those assets. Whether they’re used in other deals to bring in additional talent or are used to draft players that eventually help the team, it’s a significant leg up that snowballs over time.
Florida did the same thing with Tkachuk (and to some degree Reinhart). Vegas did it with Mark Stone, and they did it with a former pick WE sent them to unload a bad contract and protect Pelech from being taken in expansion. Tampa did it for McDonagh and has repeatedly unloaded their future picks for players they sign to long deals. They’ve made one first round pick in the last five years. Florida will go four straight years without making a first round selection as a result of the deals they’ve made.

Sorry, this is just nonsense from bitter people who are mad that this hasn’t worked out for the Isles as well as it did for other teams. The teams able to sign UFAs this year have one big advantage over us: they have cap space, we only had enough to sign Duclair. That’s it.
 

crashthenet

Registered User
Jul 9, 2004
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The Isles are easily a bottom 10 destination.
Not sure who can answer- If you play for the Bruins and live in NH, how are you taxed?

The state tax issue is an interesting one. CA, NJ, DC and NY are amongst the highest taxed markets/states in the league. When these teams are competitive, they have no problem attracting/retaining players. When the Kings and Rangers are somewhat less than contenders, the still attract UFAs.
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,960
11,786
Hell
Varlamov.

I don't understand why we're ignoring trade-and-sign players here, it represents a substantial portion of the cap and they're not exactly depth players. Horvat, Palmieri, and Pageau all fall in this category, making a total of 18.5 mil against the cap next season. Two of them scored 30+ goals last season. Why don't they count? Like who cares that they're UFAs or not? You convinced a player to stick around for more than a half season. They could have walked to UFA and signed elsewhere.

Considering that guys like Ryan Smyth and Thomas Vanek did exactly that, it is noteworthy that players are actually willing to sign here now.
 

saintunspecified

Registered User
Nov 30, 2017
6,253
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Not sure who can answer- If you play for the Bruins and live in NH, how are you taxed?

The state tax issue is an interesting one. CA, NJ, DC and NY are amongst the highest taxed markets/states in the league. When these teams are competitive, they have no problem attracting/retaining players. When the Kings and Rangers are somewhat less than contenders, the still attract UFAs.
Generally speaking, income is taxed where it is earned. So, Bruins players earnings from home games are taxed according to Boston/MA income taxes. One imagines there are specialized accounting firms responsible for tax apportionment for players. The tax advantages folks speak of are often overestimated. It's a big mix. And property taxes can be quite high even when income taxes are low. (And if they aren't, it's because the municipal services suck, and have to be supplemented. Idk if players still sometimes send their kids to public schools like they did when I was growing up, but I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Clutter, Bailey would).

Could NYI have attracted the Devils haul? Not with their cap space. Even so, one wonders whether vets like Pesce, Noesen, Dillon will work out any better than Palat did. I don't really like what they did - I don't think Noesen is going to have the same impact on the Devils 2nd or 3rd line as he did not the Canes. The Pesce signing is... idk, why sign a defender whose ice time & production has declined since his peak, and was part of an incredibly strong group? The Dillon signing made sense to address the PK, but 4M is a lot for that. Their D should round out to:

Hughes/Hamilton
Dillon/Pesce
Siegenthaler/Nemec

Perhaps they swap Hughes and Dillon. Idk... Did Nemec's ELC slide because he played only in the AHL one year? Looks like it, and if so that's the thing I guess makes it work. But they're in for some pain next offseason (Luke Hughes), and then the following one (Simon Nemec). One imagines they'll be working their tails off trying to shed Palat's contract.
 

CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
Aug 8, 2006
7,560
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Varlamov.

I don't understand why we're ignoring trade-and-sign players here, it represents a substantial portion of the cap and they're not exactly depth players. Horvat, Palmieri, and Pageau all fall in this category, making a total of 18.5 mil against the cap next season. Two of them scored 30+ goals last season. Why don't they count? Like who cares that they're UFAs or not? You convinced a player to stick around for more than a half season. They could have walked to UFA and signed elsewhere.

Considering that guys like Ryan Smyth and Thomas Vanek did exactly that, it is noteworthy that players are actually willing to sign here now.

I think it serves as an argument that the Islanders are improving their reputation as a destination.

Out of curiosity, do visiting teams still stay at the Marriott next to the Coliseum? Not exactly a great area to serve as an endorsement for LI.
 

Richie Daggers Crime

Boosted 9 times double masked they/them
Mar 8, 2004
17,471
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Not sure who can answer- If you play for the Bruins and live in NH, how are you taxed?

The state tax issue is an interesting one. CA, NJ, DC and NY are amongst the highest taxed markets/states in the league. When these teams are competitive, they have no problem attracting/retaining players. When the Kings and Rangers are somewhat less than contenders, the still attract UFAs.
The Kings aren't a big FA destination. Rangers are going to get any player they want. NJ seems to do well in this regard, but there seem to be some tangential factors for this. The Isles have the worst of every world; high taxes, a small market, and lack of sustained success being primary amongst them.
 
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crashthenet

Registered User
Jul 9, 2004
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Generally speaking, income is taxed where it is earned. So, Bruins players earnings from home games are taxed according to Boston/MA income taxes. One imagines there are specialized accounting firms responsible for tax apportionment for players. The tax advantages folks speak of are often overestimated. It's a big mix. And property taxes can be quite high even when income taxes are low. (And if they aren't, it's because the municipal services suck, and have to be supplemented. Idk if players still sometimes send their kids to public schools like they did when I was growing up, but I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Clutter, Bailey would).

Could NYI have attracted the Devils haul? Not with their cap space. Even so, one wonders whether vets like Pesce, Noesen, Dillon will work out any better than Palat did. I don't really like what they did - I don't think Noesen is going to have the same impact on the Devils 2nd or 3rd line as he did not the Canes. The Pesce signing is... idk, why sign a defender whose ice time & production has declined since his peak, and was part of an incredibly strong group? The Dillon signing made sense to address the PK, but 4M is a lot for that. Their D should round out to:

Hughes/Hamilton
Dillon/Pesce
Siegenthaler/Nemec

Perhaps they swap Hughes and Dillon. Idk... Did Nemec's ELC slide because he played only in the AHL one year? Looks like it, and if so that's the thing I guess makes it work. But they're in for some pain next offseason (Luke Hughes), and then the following one (Simon Nemec). One imagines they'll be working their tails off trying to shed Palat's contract.
Muni part is overlooked in general conversations.

Thought that Siegenthaler trade when it was made was such a solid move.
 
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impaaaaaact

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Jan 14, 2014
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Florida did the same thing with Tkachuk (and to some degree Reinhart). Vegas did it with Mark Stone, and they did it with a former pick WE sent them to unload a bad contract and protect Pelech from being taken in expansion. Tampa did it for McDonagh and has repeatedly unloaded their future picks for players they sign to long deals. They’ve made one first round pick in the last five years. Florida will go four straight years without making a first round selection as a result of the deals they’ve made.

Sorry, this is just nonsense from bitter people who are mad that this hasn’t worked out for the Isles as well as it did for other teams. The teams able to sign UFAs this year have one big advantage over us: they have cap space, we only had enough to sign Duclair. That’s it.
Florida also signed a bunch of guys this summer. Rodrigues, OEL, Mikkola off the top of my head. Vegas is a special situation as an expansion team. They had a shit ton of extra picks to play with and didn't need to build their team in a traditional fashion. The Tampa cups were a while back now and I don't remember if/who they signed at that time.

It’s all connected. Teams have more space because players take discounts for one reason or another (I named a few in another post). Teams also havespace because they have players under team control on ELCs and bridge deals.

We don’t have much of that because we have traded most of our early round picks since Lou got here. If we had signed players of that caliber during FA instead of giving up assets for them, we’d have both. That’s why teams that do successful rebuilds stockpile picks.
 
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Throttle

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Sep 22, 2020
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Not sure who can answer- If you play for the Bruins and live in NH, how are you taxed?

The state tax issue is an interesting one. CA, NJ, DC and NY are amongst the highest taxed markets/states in the league. When these teams are competitive, they have no problem attracting/retaining players. When the Kings and Rangers are somewhat less than contenders, the still attract UFAs.
Taxes only account for 50% - all away games are taxed in the location they played. So, the ‘tax’ benefit gets watered down relatively quickly.
 

seabass45

Registered User
Jan 12, 2007
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Considering that guys like Ryan Smyth and Thomas Vanek did exactly that, it is noteworthy that players are actually willing to sign here now.
Right, and I can't even begrudge Smyth for bailing. As for Vanek we ended up being lucky that he decided against sticking around. Now our problem is that too many guys who come here end up sticking around, we're locked into contracts we can't get out of, but we're still whining that players don't want to come here for some reason? We didn't have room to add a Stamkos. Nashville did. They had like 20 mil in space and used it all in one shot. And it's not exactly clear that they're a contender in that conference after these moves.
 
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replayer

Registered User
Aug 3, 2005
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I'd say we're probably lower middle, but when you have this many teams in front of you you're fighting an uphill battle.

- Original 6 Teams (Toronto, MTL, Rangers, Boston, Blackhawks, Red Wings)
- Teams with Tax advantages (Stars, Vegas, Predators, Panthers, Lightning)
- Teams with Legends/Superstars (Edmonton, Colorado, Pittsburgh, Washington)
- Teams with legitimate cup aspirations (Carolina, Vancouver, Winnipeg)

The Athletic did an anonymous survey of the NHLPA this season. One of the questions was least favorite city to play in. The results were:

1. Winnipeg 41%
2. Ottawa 12%
3. Buffalo 11%
4. Raleigh 7%
5. Phoenix 7%
6. Calgary 5%

Followed by Columbus, Edmonton, San Jose and Newark. Islanders were tied for 11th with St. Paul, Detroit and Anaheim, at just over 1%.
 

impaaaaaact

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Jan 14, 2014
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The Athletic did an anonymous survey of the NHLPA this season. One of the questions was least favorite city to play in. The results were:

1. Winnipeg 41%
2. Ottawa 12%
3. Buffalo 11%
4. Raleigh 7%
5. Phoenix 7%
6. Calgary 5%

Followed by Columbus, Edmonton, San Jose and Newark. Islanders were tied for 11th with St. Paul, Detroit and Anaheim, at just over 1%.
Ok, I guess we can take Winnipeg off the list lololol. Raleigh is surprising to me, I think it's pretty nice down there.
 
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crashthenet

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Jul 9, 2004
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Right, and I can't even begrudge Smyth for bailing. As for Vanek we ended up being lucky that he decided against sticking around. Now our problem is that too many guys who come here end up sticking around, we're locked into contracts we can't get out of, but we're still whining that players don't want to come here for some reason? We didn't have room to add a Stamkos. Nashville did. They had like 20 mil in space and used it all in one shot. And it's not exactly clear that they're a contender in that conference after these moves.
I thought this said bawling.

1720539114558.png
 

doublechili

For all intensive purposes, your nuts
Apr 11, 2006
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The Athletic did an anonymous survey of the NHLPA this season. One of the questions was least favorite city to play in. The results were:

1. Winnipeg 41%
2. Ottawa 12%
3. Buffalo 11%
4. Raleigh 7%
5. Phoenix 7%
6. Calgary 5%

Followed by Columbus, Edmonton, San Jose and Newark. Islanders were tied for 11th with St. Paul, Detroit and Anaheim, at just over 1%.
That's instructive to a point, but I also think there's a big difference between preference for a city to play an away game in (hotels, restaurants, arena atmosphere, etc.) versus where do you want to live.
 
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