Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[12Dog]

That’s why I want Nylander. He’ll shoot the rock.

Get Marner and Laine

Play Marner with Barzal and Laine
Lane will score 70 goals by default

 

[12Dog]

Somebody else brought it up

The more I watch these finals? The less I would trade for Marner
If I’m taking a big swing? I’d go for Tkachuk out of Ottawa, don’t know what he would cost or if it’s feasible, but
I think all things, salary, age, style
Others have pointed out his lack of playoff experience, true
But his style, I think translates more to playoff success
My next choice would be Laine, before Marner
Cost of acquisition would be less, his skill set is clearly needed

Just my opinion

 

[12Dog]

To me?
The biggest question this off season?
How much influence did Lou promise Roy going forward?
I’d hope more than we’ve been told

I hope Roy has been given at least a 3 year deal with some kind of input in roster construction

Lou to Roy as a transition? Managerilly? I could get behind that as opposed to Lou jr

 

[doublechili]

Based on how Roy wants to play and having Mayfield in the fold, seems like Pelech would be the odd man out, no?

I think a Pelech to TOR deal makes a lot of sense and have suggested it as he might waive his NTC to go home. And yeah, as much as people focus on the forwards, I heard Roy talk a LOT about breakouts last season and that Pelech-Pulock pairing lacks a good PMD.

 

[doublechili]

I've read that Marner is looking for at least $11M per season on his next contract. Isn't that a non-starter for a guy like Lou who seems to be really into salary structure? Sorokin at $8.25M, Horvat at $8.5M, Barzal at $9.15M ... and Marner at $11.5M? What does Dobson ask for then if he has a great season? Why take less than $10M? I don't see Lou trading for Marner unless he thinks he can extend him for less than $10M per season.

 

[Chockey22]

Dobson should not be available at all, and if Toronto wants to move on from Marner, they need to look at a package around the likes of Romanov, Nelson/Pageau, and the first round pick.

But in the hypothetical that Dobson was on the table for Marner, Toronto would be the ones adding to the trade, not us.

24 year old #1 RD are more valuable than 27 year old #1 RWs who are about to make $11-12M a year (or risk losing them to UFA).

Agreed, it seems foolish to trade a young 70 point RD for a winger; but if that is what's being discussed, I'd try to move Dobson and Pageau for Marner plus, with that plus being a young fast forward like Knies and RD Liljegren (Isles could probably use a RD coming back, though Lilj is not a great Dman). I'd be very surprised if either Romanov or Pelech would be the main defensive piece coming back - I think they could get much more for Marner elsewhere.

 

[impaaaaaact]

I've read that Marner is looking for at least $11M per season on his next contract. Isn't that a non-starter for a guy like Lou who seems to be really into salary structure? Sorokin at $8.25M, Horvat at $8.5M, Barzal at $9.15M ... and Marner at $11.5M? What does Dobson ask for then if he has a great season? Why take less than $10M? I don't see Lou trading for Marner unless he thinks he can extend him for less than $10M per season.

If Dobson has another 70+ point season he's getting 10M whether it's here or somewhere else. Cap is going up to 92M after next season, so a 10M contract would be the same percentage of cap an 8.75M would have been 2 years ago. Some players who signed for around that amount at that time are Hamilton, Nurse, Pietrangelo, and Seth Jones . Dobson is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum already.

11M for Marner would be around 9.7M a couple years ago - actually less of the cap than he's taking now. That's the Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Stone range, and although he's not the best player there he's outscored all of them so it's more than a reasonable ask, and Toronto knows this. The cap is basically going up by 12% in 2 years so it's going to get harder and hard to compare the larger contracts to each other as it continues to rise.

 

[Osakahaus]

Somebody else brought it up

The more I watch these finals? The less I would trade for Marner
If I’m taking a big swing? I’d go for Tkachuk out of Ottawa, don’t know what he would cost or if it’s feasible, but
I think all things, salary, age, style
Others have pointed out his lack of playoff experience, true
But his style, I think translates more to playoff success
My next choice would be Laine, before Marner
Cost of acquisition would be less, his skill set is clearly needed

Just my opinion

Brady Tkachuk is just a pure asshole player. I would ask for him PRONTO

 

[Throttle]

You would move Barzal for Barclay Goodrow lmao. Chychrun is on the block because they have too much $$ wrapped up in LD, that addition doesn't do anything for them.

Actually, no. At this point, outside the Trotz system of 4 lines, Barzal has been pretty meh in the playoffs. Great, he showed up when the team was down 3-0. Great job!

IMO, you do not win with Barzal as your main player, let alone top 3. His style of play does not lead teams to the promised land. Can you find an example of any player like Barzal sitting in the top 3 forwards (he’s really the isles 1 or 2), that was led his team to a Cup in the last 20 years?

So, trading out Barzal, changes the dynamic of the team. Adding a winger to the Barzal/Horvat is a bit of a whatever, absent the 2nd line being stacked that places the opposition in a serious dilemma, bc it is going to be shut down in the playoffs. It gets people all wet over YouTube and stats, but highly highly doubt it makes the Isles a contender- where are the examples it does?

If Barzal plays McKinnon-like and drives to the net with purpose and execution (yeah, he failed at that this last season with clinchers on the line, he whiffed), then I’m all for it. He’s 26, unless he gets the Yzerman/Modano epiphany, he’s a perimeter player that’s wrought with issues to build around. Swap him out and get a better all around player that can play a better overall game. Otherwise, the Isles are stuck for the term of his deal. Warning signs have been posted. Enjoy.

 

[Throttle]

Somebody else brought it up

The more I watch these finals? The less I would trade for Marner
If I’m taking a big swing? I’d go for Tkachuk out of Ottawa, don’t know what he would cost or if it’s feasible, but
I think all things, salary, age, style
Others have pointed out his lack of playoff experience, true
But his style, I think translates more to playoff success
My next choice would be Laine, before Marner
Cost of acquisition would be less, his skill set is clearly needed

Just my opinion

The more time goes by, the Colorado ‘run and gun’ Cup is an anomaly from the 4-line teams that won (and will win) the Cup in the last 20+ years.

Marner is a waif. If you can get him for dumping dead contracts, then great. Otherwise, use those assets for a better overall fit/player.

Also, acquiring Marner places a HUGE emphasis on the 3rd and 4th line - the areas Toronto struggles with and an area of contention for the Isles faithful that needs to be addressed.

 

[SI]

Actually, no. At this point, outside the Trotz system of 4 lines, Barzal has been pretty meh in the playoffs. Great, he showed up when the team was down 3-0. Great job!

IMO, you do not win with Barzal as your main player, let alone top 3. His style of play does not lead teams to the promised land. Can you find an example of any player like Barzal sitting in the top 3 forwards (he’s really the isles 1 or 2), that was led his team to a Cup in the last 20 years?

So, trading out Barzal, changes the dynamic of the team. Adding a winger to the Barzal/Horvat is a bit of a whatever, absent the 2nd line being stacked that places the opposition in a serious dilemma, bc it is going to be shut down in the playoffs. It gets people all wet over YouTube and stats, but highly highly doubt it makes the Isles a contender- where are the examples it does?

If Barzal plays McKinnon-like and drives to the net with purpose and execution (yeah, he failed at that this last season with clinchers on the line, he whiffed), then I’m all for it. He’s 26, unless he gets the Yzerman/Modano epiphany, he’s a perimeter player that’s wrought with issues to build around. Swap him out and get a better all around player that can play a better overall game. Otherwise, the Isles are stuck for the term of his deal. Warning signs have been posted. Enjoy.

You do not know hockey - your posts reek like you have never played the game.

Drive to the net, yes, but you realize this is the NHL and NOT shinny or a beer league, right?
His job is to gain the zone with his speed and puck possession skills - he would not survive under any coach if he was playing as selfishly as you are suggesting.

Barzal meh in the playoffs? 2 goals and 3 assists in 5 games played and one of those goals was a GW in double OT.
He was also second in the team in shots with 16. Barzal was NOT the issue in this playoffs or this season.

Maybe he should play that PP system you were touting - on how they should not play from the perimeter but play low - please explain I am intrigued.

 

[Potvottier]

OUR NEMESIS:

Imagine if just half of our 1st round picks panned out. In the past 10 years...

Dal Colle, Barzal, Ho-Sang, Beauviller, Bellows, Wahlstrom, Dobson, Holmstrom.

4 of 8 gone from the team. 2 of 8 panned out. Imagine if 2 more would have? We would be sitting much better, if we did.

I would say that both selection and developing, are to blame. But, IMO, LL has improved both aspects of development. Not greatly, but definitely improved. It seems like he is showing patience and trust in our youth and not just throwing them away, after a few disappointing campaigns.

If Wahlstrom and Holmstrom pick it up, it would help greatly. Hoping that Bolduc does too.

 

[saintunspecified]

I think Marner is a better player however he has never had to be "The Guy" like the Whalers tried to get Cullen to be.
Cullen was nowhere near the same player when he was not with Batman and Robin in Pittsburgh.....

Meanwhile Marner is the player who consistently leads the Leafs in TOI - the guy they have moved in order to 'get' Tavares going. At 180 pounds dripping wet to start the season, he plays more than anyone on his team. He's averaged 20+ minutes the last 5 years, including at least 21 in 4/5 years, and 22 in one of them. That year the Leafs lost, and Marner had a similarly uneventful playoffs, in which Nylander performed better. Nylander, who had averaged 5 minutes TOI per game *less*. Should one mention that he kills a full minor penalty worth of time per game?

It's ridiculous to recognize that Dobson was cooked this playoffs (he was), and not consider for a moment Marner's situation. (Barzal, btw, clearly goes through energy troughs when he plays too much, and he doesn't kill penalties).

Have you looked at the Leafs roster? Have you watched them? They completely depend on their forwards to get the puck up the ice when Reilly is not on the ice. We should know what that's like, because NYI have had the same problem when Dobson isn't on the ice. It becomes a burden, for Barzal in particular, to spend his energy just to maintain possession. Well, that's been Marner. Dude is 180 lbs wet to start the season. God knows what he weighs to end it, but you can bet it's not enough.

Obviously it makes no sense from a roster construction pov to trade Dobson for Marner, because, duh, that would replicate the Leaf's current roster problem. He's going to be a creative offensive player, or he's going to micromanage the breakout. But he can only effectively do both for so long.

Personally, I think Marner is headed for free agency, and I think it would be sweet as hell if NYI were to grab him as a UFA in circumstances that could be much more favorable for NYI than it was for the Leafs when they signed Tavares. Yeah, it's a pipe dream, but it's better to grab our own narrative than borrow a lazy Leafs narrative.

 

[seafoam]

Pulock at 6.15M per > Hronek at 7.25M per, but alas the deals were signed ~34 months apart.

 

[MarsTBOW]

Meanwhile Marner is the player who consistently leads the Leafs in TOI - the guy they have moved in order to 'get' Tavares going. At 180 pounds dripping wet to start the season, he plays more than anyone on his team. He's averaged 20+ minutes the last 5 years, including at least 21 in 4/5 years, and 22 in one of them. That year the Leafs lost, and Marner had a similarly uneventful playoffs, in which Nylander performed better. Nylander, who had averaged 5 minutes TOI per game *less*. Should one mention that he kills a full minor penalty worth of time per game?

It's ridiculous to recognize that Dobson was cooked this playoffs (he was), and not consider for a moment Marner's situation. (Barzal, btw, clearly goes through energy troughs when he plays too much, and he doesn't kill penalties).

Have you looked at the Leafs roster? Have you watched them? They completely depend on their forwards to get the puck up the ice when Reilly is not on the ice. We should know what that's like, because NYI have had the same problem when Dobson isn't on the ice. It becomes a burden, for Barzal in particular, to spend his energy just to maintain possession. Well, that's been Marner. Dude is 180 lbs wet to start the season. God knows what he weighs to end it, but you can bet it's not enough.

Obviously it makes no sense from a roster construction pov to trade Dobson for Marner, because, duh, that would replicate the Leaf's current roster problem. He's going to be a creative offensive player, or he's going to micromanage the breakout. But he can only effectively do both for so long.

Personally, I think Marner is headed for free agency, and I think it would be sweet as hell if NYI were to grab him as a UFA in circumstances that could be much more favorable for NYI than it was for the Leafs when they signed Tavares. Yeah, it's a pipe dream, but it's better to grab our own narrative than borrow a lazy Leafs narrative.

So you think Marner "Is The Guy" already in Toronto.
Playing the PK effectively as an addition to his offense is noted.
Why would Toronto want to move him?
Must be over $ and or Term of his next Contract or Teammates or Coaches soured on him?

 

[JPIsles18]

Barclay Goodrow is on waivers today. That contract didn't look good from the start.

Yes and neither did the JGP. Good on the Rangers to admit this and move on. The Isles can learn from this.

 

[Throttle]

You do not know hockey - your posts reek like you have never played the game.

Drive to the net, yes, but you realize this is the NHL and NOT shinny or a beer league, right?
His job is to gain the zone with his speed and puck possession skills - he would not survive under any coach if he was playing as selfishly as you are suggesting.

Barzal meh in the playoffs? 2 goals and 3 assists in 5 games played and one of those goals was a GW in double OT.
He was also second in the team in shots with 16. Barzal was NOT the issue in this playoffs or this season.

Maybe he should play that PP system you were touting - on how they should not play from the perimeter but play low - please explain I am intrigued.

I love a player that had 1 point in the first three playoff games…the isles were down 0-3 in the series.

Oh, but wait, he scores the game winner in game 4, since the next game the Isles were bounced 1-4.

Maybe deliver during games 1,2, and 3 vs putting up points where basically the odds, with limited exception, overwhelmingly favor the team down 0-3 loses the series 95% of the time.

So, thanks for the 5 points in 5 playoffs games, 4 of which when the team was down 0-3 and soon to be eliminated. Yippee.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

So you think Marner "Is The Guy" already in Toronto.
Playing the PK effectively as an addition to his offense is noted.
Why would Toronto want to move him?
Must be over $ and or Term of his next Contract or Teammates or Coaches soured on him?

If anybody in the organization has soured on him, it's gonna be irrelevant.

They just can't keep investing this kind of money into their top 5.

If they feel they need to shake things up in that top 5 constellation in any way, shape, or form, his being 1 year from free agency while also a tradable commodity has him way up front on the to-go list.

 

[CupHolders]

You do not know hockey - your posts reek like you have never played the game.

Drive to the net, yes, but you realize this is the NHL and NOT shinny or a beer league, right?
His job is to gain the zone with his speed and puck possession skills - he would not survive under any coach if he was playing as selfishly as you are suggesting.

Barzal meh in the playoffs? 2 goals and 3 assists in 5 games played and one of those goals was a GW in double OT.
He was also second in the team in shots with 16. Barzal was NOT the issue in this playoffs or this season.

Maybe he should play that PP system you were touting - on how they should not play from the perimeter but play low - please explain I am intrigued.

I'm detecting that more and more on these general boards. Not just the lack of playing but of basic understanding on skating.

 

[CupHolders]

I love a player that had 1 point in the first three playoff games…the isles were down 0-3 in the series.

Oh, but wait, he scores the game winner in game 4, since the next game the Isles were bounced 1-4.

Maybe deliver during games 1,2, and 3 vs putting up points where basically the odds, with limited exception, overwhelmingly favor the team down 0-3 loses the series 95% of the time.

So, thanks for the 5 points in 5 playoffs games, 4 of which when the team was down 0-3 and soon to be eliminated. Yippee.

Narrative to bolster your pre-existing opinion. Even if following your silly reasoning, that Barzal only showed up when it was 0-3... why didn't anyone else show up at all?

All season the Isles achilles heal has been PK, defense (especially holding leads) and goaltending and yet your focus is on... "but what about Barzal?" What was supposed to happen, Barzal outscore the Isles deficiencies?

And don't give us the usual misguided rant about how this imaginary consensus of Barzal illuminati asked for and deserve this. When in fact only a particular group of Isles fans wanted Trotz to "unleash" him from the "shackles of Leo Komarov."

To be clear... Leo Komarov was never an issue for me.

 

[saintunspecified]

So you think Marner "Is The Guy" already in Toronto.
Playing the PK effectively as an addition to his offense is noted.
Why would Toronto want to move him?

I have enough thinking about NYI problems. But recall that Toronto traded Phil Kessel for a late 1st who then when 18g-27a-45p in 49gp (30 goal, 75 point pace) winning two cups with Pittsburgh.

As for who is "the Guy" there, idk? Is it Matthews? He scores at a 53 goal pace over his career in the RS, and at a 34 goal pace in the playoffs. Neither of them are McDavid or even MacKinnon. How many of "the Guy" are there in the NHL at all? Recent "the guys" include MacKinnon, Makar, Kucherov, Hedman, Point (not anymore imo)? Vegas won without any "the guy" standing out.

Must be over $ and or Term of his next Contract or Teammates or Coaches soured on him?

Again this has to do with politics, and roster construction. But i don't blame anyone who doesn't like working more to cover personnel deficiencies, and then get blamed for burnout. If I were him, I'd really want to go somewhere else.

 

[MarsTBOW]

I have enough thinking about NYI problems. But recall that Toronto traded Phil Kessel for a late 1st who then when 18g-27a-45p in 49gp (30 goal, 75 point pace) winning two cups with Pittsburgh.

As for who is "the Guy" there, idk? Is it Matthews? He scores at a 53 goal pace over his career in the RS, and at a 34 goal pace in the playoffs. Neither of them are McDavid or even MacKinnon. How many of "the Guy" are there, even?


Again this has to do with politics, and roster construction. But i don't blame anyone who doesn't like working more to cover personnel deficiencies, and then get blamed for burnout. If I were him, I'd really want to go somewhere else.

I cannot remember if Matthews kills penalties or not....
Ok he does but only recently has he begun to play the PK.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Actually, no. At this point, outside the Trotz system of 4 lines, Barzal has been pretty meh in the playoffs. Great, he showed up when the team was down 3-0. Great job!

IMO, you do not win with Barzal as your main player, let alone top 3. His style of play does not lead teams to the promised land. Can you find an example of any player like Barzal sitting in the top 3 forwards (he’s really the isles 1 or 2), that was led his team to a Cup in the last 20 years?

So, trading out Barzal, changes the dynamic of the team. Adding a winger to the Barzal/Horvat is a bit of a whatever, absent the 2nd line being stacked that places the opposition in a serious dilemma, bc it is going to be shut down in the playoffs. It gets people all wet over YouTube and stats, but highly highly doubt it makes the Isles a contender- where are the examples it does?

If Barzal plays McKinnon-like and drives to the net with purpose and execution (yeah, he failed at that this last season with clinchers on the line, he whiffed), then I’m all for it. He’s 26, unless he gets the Yzerman/Modano epiphany, he’s a perimeter player that’s wrought with issues to build around. Swap him out and get a better all around player that can play a better overall game. Otherwise, the Isles are stuck for the term of his deal. Warning signs have been posted. Enjoy.

We are all aware, you have posted this same sentiment 500 different ways in about a month and a half.

 

[saintunspecified]

I cannot remember if Matthews kills penalties or not....

He does, but not as many mins as Marner.

 

[Throttle]

We are all aware, you have posted this same sentiment 500 different ways in about a month and a half.

Cool, well, believing that Chychrun is on the block bc they have too much money on LD is opposite what all the noise is: he does not want to resign in OTT and is nearing UFA.

So, he’s on the block to get value for a player that more likely than not will walk as a UFA. Trading for Pelech avoids that situation entirely and returns a signed player at the same spot.

Last I checked, OTT isn’t a hot bed for UFAs unless the market shuts you out (Tarasenko) and it’s a temporary holding pattern.