Roster Building XXIV: Our Hearts Go Pitter Pattersson

[Chrispy]

That’s not really a new concept and I think we get it? Not being a dick, just saying I think that one’s is already on the table.

Saying Rantanen shouldn't make more than MacKinnon's 12.6 when MacKinnon's contract was signed 2.5 years ago under a flat cap and the cap has exploded since shows you aren't thinking in terms of %.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Noel Acciari from Pitt?

The guy that I would try to acquire is Mike McCarron from Nashville. Only makes $900K through 2026, RH 4C, and 6'6".

 

[chaz4hockey]

The guy that I would try to acquire is Mike McCarron from Nashville. Only makes $900K through 2026, RH 4C, and 6'6".

His Slashline:

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

His Slashline:
View attachment 968477
View attachment 968476

Nashville's a bad team, so it partially explains that plus-minus. The FO numbers look good, though, and he takes them right-handed. For a cheap 4C acquisition, it's not a bad idea, especially since he's also absolutely huge at 6'6"/231.

 

[Unsustainable]

Think Nashville would trade Saros before his NTC kicks in?

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Think Nashville would trade Saros before his NTC kicks in?

Probably not since they traded Askarov to keep Saros. Unless it was Pyotr going back then maybe.

 

[bleedgreen]

Saying Rantanen shouldn't make more than MacKinnon's 12.6 when MacKinnon's contract was signed 2.5 years ago under a flat cap and the cap has exploded since shows you aren't thinking in terms of %.

We’ve been talking about % for almost 20 years. The Avs weren’t going to pay him more than Mack….and they know the concept of %. He shouldn’t be at Mack’s percentage. He’s not nearly the same level player. Teams don’t have to acknowledge % vs perceived value. You can absolutely say “this guy is our top pay...no one is getting more” and that’s that. You can accept that or take your idea of % to the market/get traded. We just saw the Avs decision there. % is also a team specific concept. Every team will value a different % for certain roles. If there’s a formula to it we as fans aren’t privy to it.

The Avs have never really been a top three guy team, it’s a clear cut top two guy team and then a very good player the next step down. Rants was never going to paid at the same level or % of the other two. If the league wants to take advantage of increased cap space they generally need to avoid the whole concept of % they can, as that’s the agents ploy to get more money out of them.

 

[Sigurd]

We have no idea what Vancouver asked for either guy, speculation on these things aren’t reliable. I would’ve been fine sending Morrow for either guy as they both have term left and are far better players than Morrow. I haven’t been a strong advocate for either guy from the Nucks because of their contracts but I’d be more inclined to chase Miller than EP. The abrasive style would be a good fit, he’d compliment Aho. EP Aho’s harder. They’re very similar with a skill difference, I’m not sure EP makes the team better whereas Miller has a chance at it. I’d trade Morrow for either, but I think the better value is Miller

Like your "friend" who has connections to the hockey world? Or is his speculation on Rantanen's work ethic and effort reliable? At least what speculation I mentioned was from public sources: NHL insiders who are known to have legit connections.

I never know what to make of fans who don’t watch a player making fun of fans that do watch a player, then pointing at stats to prove it.

Not sure what I, or anyone else has said, to give you the impression we have been making fun of you. Have I and other Canes fans argued against your bashing of Rantanen? Yes.

Rantanen’s stats growth generally reflects Mackinnons dominating growth, pp time with Mack and Makar, and huge minutes given to these top guys together. I feel the Western conference is a points feeding frenzy for the top dogs in the conference as well. Rantanen has been increasingly invisible with the Avs, it’s the truth. They’re right. Easily cured by a trade elsewhere? Sure. I hope so. Aho has good numbers this year but we’ve all noticed he wasn’t at the same level he’s been at in the past, no? A player can get pts without playing their best when they are in the right situation. You’re off base blindly saying because he’s had great pts he’s played this best. Rantanen hasn’t driven those huge numbers himself, he’s been playing with the best the game has to offer. With us Im just hoping he’s ppg-ish and a little above because that would be greatly appreciated. We’re not the team that gets him 100pts on paper. We’ll see, obviously it would be awesome if it goes that way.

I'm pretty sure there's been a number of instances across different sports of, "x player is only doing so well because he plays with player y." As a matter of fact, we had such a player last year: Jake Guentzel. People said he wouldn't do much without being stapled to Crosby, and yet, surprise. Guentzel did well with Aho, and Guentzel has done well with Tampa this season. This is hardly a unique narrative in sports, and you don't have to follow a particular team closely to figure that out. Also, most of the people that said he wouldn't do well without being on Crosby's line were Pittsburgh fans; interesting coincidence with you being a Colorado fan.

If you were to say Rantanen could put more effort into his defensive game, I'd say there's nothing wrong with that. Hurricane fans know from experience about that over the years. However, what you're saying is vastly different, and objectively can be challenged. Rather easily in fact. Clearly I won't change your mind though.

I’m not fixated on 14. That’s the number his agent asked for so we’re using it as a barometer of possible asking price, and when I’m talking to others it’s the reference point being fed back to me. Not sure why you’re mentioning 14 with me, I’m not driving that. My honest opinion is that he’s a 10ish value. For him to sign with us vs markets he might like better it might be 12…or 14. He said he’d give CO a discount on his market value….lord only knows what he thinks his market value is! Sounds like we’d probably have to pay it. We’re not the hometown team.

We also know as outsiders that many times in sports, and more broadly in the business world for that matter, that party A has an ideal price, and so does party B. Not always, but often times they make a compromise and reach a price in the middle. That's business 101. So, again, not sure why you're taking it as gospel that Rantanen will only settle for 14 million dollars. Also, I find it interesting you double down in your cynicism about the possibility of Rantanen signing an extension below 14 million, and can't concede it could very well happen. Also, let's not act like him playing with Aho means nothing in all of these contract extension talks.

- we’re always money pucking. Hard to imagine getting retention with years left on the Vancouver guys contracts but it’s available with Rants. That leaves us with more options this year. I think while we keep our eye on the future we’re very this year as the primary focus with these moves. We don’t know that Rants is staying. We’ve also added Hall and I think we’re adding more if we can find the right deals. We were rumored to have all three deals individually close to done, and we pivoted to Rants. You can say you think it’s because you think he’s the best player but I’ll never believe we did it without significant consideration to financial flexibility it gives us vs the other two.

- I don’t think we’re paying him 14 million over 8. It’s not proof we’re not money pucking. We’ll see. I could see us using our space to pay him that for two or three years? We’re crazy like that. I think you’re nuts if you don’t think TD and Tulsky aren’t money pucking every single move we do, for better or for worse. It’s our edge. We’re good at it.

I focused long term in the context of an extension for Rantanen regarding money puck, however, we can focus on the short term. Yes, clearly if Carolina sees an additional move they like before the deadline, they will try to make another trade. Eric Tulsky said they are always looking to improve the team when asked if there were more moves coming. Like I said, I don't expect it to be more than a depth player we get though. There is also such a thing as getting rid of too many roster players in the middle of a season; we've dealt two for Rantanen. That becomes a real concern at a certain point with too many changes in team chemistry, but Rod as our coach gives me more comfort.

 

[User13452]

The guy that I would try to acquire is Mike McCarron from Nashville. Only makes $900K through 2026, RH 4C, and 6'6".

Would also look at Luke Kunin from San Jose bring a bit more offence

 

[bleedgreen]

Like your "friend" who has connections to the hockey world? Or is his speculation on Rantanen's work ethic and effort reliable? At least what speculation I mentioned was from public sources: NHL insiders who are known to have legit connections.

Not sure what I, or anyone else has said, to give you the impression we have been making fun of you. Have I and other Canes fans argued against your bashing of Rantanen? Yes.

I'm pretty sure there's been a number of instances across different sports of, "x player is only doing so well because he plays with player y." As a matter of fact, we had such a player last year: Jake Guentzel. People said he wouldn't do much without being stapled to Crosby, and yet, surprise. Guentzel did well with Aho, and Guentzel has done well with Tampa this season. This is hardly a unique narrative in sports, and you don't have to follow a particular team closely to figure that out. Also, most of the people that said he wouldn't do well without being on Crosby's line were Pittsburgh fans; interesting coincidence with you being a Colorado fan.

If you were to say Rantanen could put more effort into his defensive game, I'd say there's nothing wrong with that. Hurricane fans know from experience about that over the years. However, what you're saying is vastly different, and objectively can be challenged. Rather easily in fact. Clearly I won't change your mind though.

We also know as outsiders that many times in sports, and more broadly in the business world for that matter, that party A has an ideal price, and so does party B. Not always, but often times they make a compromise and reach a price in the middle. That's business 101. So, again, not sure why you're taking it as gospel that Rantanen will only settle for 14 million dollars. Also, I find it interesting you double down in your cynicism about the possibility of Rantanen signing an extension below 14 million, and can't concede it could very well happen. Also, let's not act like him playing with Aho means nothing in all of these contract extension talks.

I focused long term in the context of an extension for Rantanen regarding money puck, however, we can focus on the short term. Yes, clearly if Carolina sees an additional move they like before the deadline, they will try to make another trade. Eric Tulsky said they are always looking to improve the team when asked if there were more moves coming. Like I said, I don't expect it to be more than a depth player we get though. There is also such a thing as getting rid of too many roster players in the middle of a season; we've dealt two for Rantanen. That becomes a real concern at a certain point with too many changes in team chemistry, but Rod as our coach gives me more comfort.

I didn’t say you were making fun of me, you were dismissing Avs fans in general who were saying his effort has waned and you used his stats as proof he hasn’t. I’m not too sensitive, especially here. It would be hard for me to be posting here for 20 years if I was sensitive!

You’re taking this whole thing a lot more seriously than I am. My source is a pretty good one but even I said I take it with a grain of salt! Trying to come back at me over it is funny when I’m the one who discredited it to some extent first. Everything I said is exactly what other Avs fans said about how he’s played. You somehow miss the part where I say he could easily be reinvigorated by coming here….repeatedly. These things are being said about Rants, fans have been reading it pretty right based on everything I’ve seen. He would not be the first player to become checked out towards the end of his time with a team. This probably played a role in him becoming available….so good!

I would never say someone like Jake or Rants can’t play without their studs. They’re both guys who can play off a skilled center and they both have moved onto playing with another skilled center. I expect Rants to continue being a good scorer. I don’t expect him to be a lot more than the proverbial 50ft player we’ve been searching for. Nobody who fits that description tends to be a great defensive player or an end to end sprinter. I don’t think he’s worth the neighborhood of 14 but I do agree with anyone who says we need an upgrade in skill, and if the price to get said skill to stay in Carolina is a bit higher than everywhere else maybe you have to pay it. That’s a reason to look at Miller. More than we want to pay him but it’s cost controlled and cheaper than maybe getting an equivalent center to sign here as a UFA.

 

[Sigurd]

I didn’t say you were making fun of me, you were dismissing Avs fans in general who were saying his effort has waned and you used his stats as proof he hasn’t. I’m not too sensitive, especially here. It would be hard for me to be posting here for 20 years if I was sensitive!

Didn't say you were. Strawman argument.

You’re taking this whole thing a lot more seriously than I am. My source is a pretty good one but even I said I take it with a grain of salt! Trying to come back at me over it is funny when I’m the one who discredited it to some extent first. Everything I said is exactly what other Avs fans said about how he’s played. You somehow miss the part where I say he could easily be reinvigorated by coming here….repeatedly. These things are being said about Rants, fans have been reading it pretty right based on everything I’ve seen. He would not be the first player to become checked out towards the end of his time with a team. This probably played a role in him becoming available….so good!

You say I'm taking it a lot more seriously than you are, yet you were the one who replied to multiple people ready to die on this hill about Rantanen, in effect, not being all that, lazy, and more recently, won't do that well without MacKinnon and Makar. You wrote a long reply to someone before I ever replied to you about this topic.

I would never say someone like Jake or Rants can’t play without their studs. They’re both guys who can play off a skilled center and they both have moved onto playing with another skilled center. I expect Rants to continue being a good scorer. I don’t expect him to be a lot more than the proverbial 50ft player we’ve been searching for. Nobody who fits that description tends to be a great defensive player or an end end sprinter. I don’t think he’s worth the neighborhood of 14 but I do agree with anyone who says we need an upgrade in skill, and if the price to get said skill to stay in Carolina is a bit higher than everywhere else maybe you have to pay it. That’s a reason to look at Miller. More than we want to pay him but it’s cost controlled and cheaper than maybe getting an equivalent center to sign here as a UFA.

I didn't say you would, or have said he can't play without them, I only was saying, through the highly relevant comparison to Guenztel, that you believed Rantanen wouldn't do that well without MacKinnon. What you did do, however, was say: "Rantanen’s stats growth generally reflects Mackinnons dominating growth, pp time with Mack and Makar, and huge minutes given to these top guys together."

Therefore, you say Rantanen's stats generally are due to MacKinnon, and playing with MacKinnon and Makar on the powerplay. It's pretty clear you give a lot of credit to Rantanen's point production to MacKinnon, and on the power play, to both MacKinnon and Makar.

My point remains about Guentzel. He has done well without Crosby, and he proved the naysayers wrong that he wouldn't do that much without being on Crosby's line. Not a reach to conclude there's a good chance it will be similar with Rantanen.

 

[bleedgreen]

Didn't say you were. Strawman argument.

You say I'm taking it a lot more seriously than you are, yet you were the one who replied to multiple people ready to die on this hill about Rantanen, in effect, not being all that, lazy, and more recently, won't do that well without MacKinnon and Makar. You wrote a long reply to someone before I ever replied to you about this topic.

I didn't say you would, or have said he can't play without them, I only was saying, through the highly relevant comparison to Guenztel, that you believed Rantanen wouldn't do that well without MacKinnon. What you did do, however, was say: "Rantanen’s stats growth generally reflects Mackinnons dominating growth, pp time with Mack and Makar, and huge minutes given to these top guys together."

Therefore, you say Rantanen's stats generally are due to MacKinnon, and playing with MacKinnon and Makar on the powerplay. It's pretty clear you give a lot of credit to Rantanen's point production to MacKinnon, and on the power play, to both MacKinnon and Makar.

My point remains about Guentzel. He has done well without Crosby, and he proved the naysayers wrong that he wouldn't do that much without being on Crosby's line. Not a reach to conclude there's a good chance it will be similar with Rantanen.

You said I thought you were making fun of me. I said I didnt think that, at all. That's it, you misunderstood and I've already explained how.

There's a difference between being due to Mack/Makar and being driven by Mack/Makar. Of course I've replied to people who are replying to me? How does that make me dying on a hill? I'll sit here all day going back and forth about nonsense because it's fun to debate. I'm not trying to aggravate anyone, debates and conversations about this are interesting to me.

I do think there's a pretty good chance Rantanen doesnt do as well with us as he did with the Avs. I think that's neither a surprising sentiment nor an insulting one. It absolutely is not saying he isnt going to do well here. Mack and Makar are Hart and Norris level players and Makar is the best defenseman I've seen in 20 years. He's on his way to being amongst the best ever at his position. We don't have that. Our guys are pretty good and we're hoping Rants will raise the level. I'm sure he will.

I'm sure everyone is sick of us going back and forth about this so let's move on. I'm sure we'll have ample opportunity to debate all this.

 

[Unsustainable]

Do you think a deal for EP40 with out Necas can happen now?

 

[Chrispy]

Do you think a deal for EP40 with out Necas can happen now?

No, I don’t think there’s anything else Carolina would give up that Vancouver would accept as a EP package.

Miller, maybe. But I still think that contract would make Tulsky break out in hives.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Do you think a deal for EP40 with out Necas can happen now?

It would likely require Svech and KK...and Vancouver should still say no-thanks if they're smart. 1C talents at only 26 years old don't grow on trees.

No, I don’t think there’s anything else Carolina would give up that Vancouver would accept as a EP package.

Miller, maybe. But I still think that contract would make Tulsky break out in hives.

Miller trade would likely require some retention or a sweetener for it to be palatable to Carolina. Not impossible, but there will be other teams out there who will be willing to take on the full cap hit.

 

[Unsustainable]

No, I don’t think there’s anything else Carolina would give up that Vancouver would accept as a EP package.

Miller, maybe. But I still think that contract would make Tulsky break out in hives.

I don't think any talks about Miller was in his thoughts, it was always EP.

If JR wants KK (who's looking good for us) Roslovic, then maybe FUS / Pick for EP if they see no way of moving Miller, maybe that could become a possibility.

 

[User13452]

they could target a winger to play on the top line in place of Blake or move Jarvis up there when carrier is back but Jarvis has been really good on that line so they may leave it. I don’t really see a spot for Roslovic he’s not meant for a 4th line and not sure he can play on the first line. There’s many ways they could go at the deadline but something like this could work

?-Aho-Rantanen
Hall-KK-Svech
Martinook-Staal-Jarvis
Robinson-?-Blake/carrier

Or just move Jarvis up to first line and Carrier back to staal line and add a 4c. With a fully healthy lineup where does Roslovic even fit in here? Obviously he has a spot likely until game 1 of the playoffs when carrier returns but you could move his money out and get a upgrade in the top 6

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

they could target a winger to play on the top line in place of Blake or move Jarvis up there when carrier is back but Jarvis has been really good on that line so they may leave it. I don’t really see a spot for Roslovic he’s not meant for a 4th line and not sure he can play on the first line. There’s many ways they could go at the deadline but something like this could work

?-Aho-Rantanen
Hall-KK-Svech
Martinook-Staal-Jarvis
Robinson-?-Blake/carrier

Or just move Jarvis up to first line and Carrier back to staal line and add a 4c. With a fully healthy lineup where does Roslovic even fit in here? Obviously he has a spot likely until game 1 of the playoffs when carrier returns but you could move his money out and get a upgrade in the top 6

Maybe we can go to Utah and offer Roslovic for Stenlund. He would round out our center group nicely as a right shot and has an extra year remaining at a $2M cap hit.

 

[User13452]

Maybe we can go to Utah and offer Roslovic for Stenlund. He would round out our center group nicely as a right shot and has an extra year remaining at a $2M cap hit.

Even Bjugstad would make sense

 

[CandyCanes]

Playing around with be a GM mode. It really is crazy the flexibility we have this offseason. Here's what I have so far.

UFA Signings:
Rantanen - 8 years x $12,750,000
Robinson - 3 years x $2.2M
Hall - 3 years x $4M
Vejmelka - 5 years x $5.5M

Roster:
Blake - Aho - Rantanen
Hall - KK - Svech
Martinook - Staal - Jarvis
Robinson - X - Carrier

Slavin - X
Nikishin - Chatfield
Ghost - Walker

Vejmelka
Kooch

Remaining Cap Space: $10.2M
Probably sign a depth 4C in the $1.5-3M range. Not sure who.

I could see us working a draft picks / prospects trade at the draft to fill in that #1 RD spot next to Slavin. I also imagine we'll take a hard look at Poink or Ekblad if we don't make a trade.

Canes could feasibly go out and find a #2 center as well if they move out KK in a deal. In the $5-7M range.

 

[spockBokk]

Playing around with be a GM mode. It really is crazy the flexibility we have this offseason. Here's what I have so far.

UFA Signings:
Rantanen - 8 years x $12,750,000
Robinson - 3 years x $2.2M
Hall - 3 years x $4M
Vejmelka - 5 years x $5.5M

Roster:
Blake - Aho - Rantanen
Hall - KK - Svech
Martinook - Staal - Jarvis
Robinson - X - Carrier

Slavin - X
Nikishin - Chatfield
Ghost - Walker

Vejmelka
Kooch

Remaining Cap Space: $10.2M
Probably sign a depth 4C in the $1.5-3M range. Not sure who.

I could see us working a draft picks / prospects trade at the draft to fill in that #1 RD spot next to Slavin. I also imagine we'll take a hard look at Poink or Ekblad if we don't make a trade.

Canes could feasibly go out and find a #2 center as well if they move out KK in a deal. In the $5-7M range.

Pretty well thought out.

I think Rantanen’s # starts with a 13 though. I think $13.25M x 8 would be quite a compelling offer to keep him around. Hopefully they’re willing to do that.

Hall sounds like he’s very open to sticking around. If he keeps up any sort of semblance of his play over the first 2 games since the trade, he’s a no brainer to re-sign for $4-5M x 3 if he’d be willing to take that.

I’m not real sure about Robinson. He’s fast and has size, but without Necas he’s just kinda there. I think his production will bottom out. A few days ago I was thinking he may command potentially up to $3M on an extension, but if he wants to stick around, I’d hope they wouldn’t give him anymore than $2M. I also think Nadeau pushes for a spot next season, may not want to use up a spot on Robinson in case they’re hoping Nadeau or Unger Sorum can make the jump. If they don’t re-sign Roslovic, they’ll need another right shot forward anyway. Finally, on Robinson, I think the acquisition of Hall and maybe the retention of Hall makes Robinson expendable for next year.

Outside of what they do with Rantanen, it’ll be most interesting to see how they maneuver the 1st pair RD slot this summer. Not much available in ufa. Will they give Morrow a shot?

 

[Svechhammer]

Do you think a deal for EP40 with out Necas can happen now?

Quite frankly, if we're still pursuing trades, I would hope its for a defensive player to get Slavin some help that would allow us to play Burns more sheltered mins

 

[A Star is Burns]

Quite frankly, if we're still pursuing trades, I would hope its for a defensive player to get Slavin some help that would allow us to play Burns more sheltered mins

I keep wondering what they would do in this type of situation if they aren't moving one of the other D out. You've made mid-to-long term commitments to Slavin, Walker, Ghost, and Chat. You are putting yourself in a tough position if you want to sit one of them. Orlov doesn't have a long term commitment, but he's been pretty great. And Burns, even with the idea of sheltering him, I don't think Rod would want to take him out of the lineup with what we know about him at the end of his career and with Burns having his streak.

Do you move out one Ghost, Walker, or Chat having just committed to them and with them mostly playing well? Do you rotate guys through and hope you don't piss anyone off? Bite the bullet and sit Burns or trade him but potentially have a mutiny on your hands? You could run seven D at times, but I don't think that works either in the long run.

At the same time, if you could find a way to get like Rasmus Andersson, you probably don't mind navigating those difficult questions and scenarios. But it's not an easy path to take.

 

[User13452]

Playing around with be a GM mode. It really is crazy the flexibility we have this offseason. Here's what I have so far.

UFA Signings:
Rantanen - 8 years x $12,750,000
Robinson - 3 years x $2.2M
Hall - 3 years x $4M
Vejmelka - 5 years x $5.5M

Roster:
Blake - Aho - Rantanen
Hall - KK - Svech
Martinook - Staal - Jarvis
Robinson - X - Carrier

Slavin - X
Nikishin - Chatfield
Ghost - Walker

Vejmelka
Kooch

Remaining Cap Space: $10.2M
Probably sign a depth 4C in the $1.5-3M range. Not sure who.

I could see us working a draft picks / prospects trade at the draft to fill in that #1 RD spot next to Slavin. I also imagine we'll take a hard look at Poink or Ekblad if we don't make a trade.

Canes could feasibly go out and find a #2 center as well if they move out KK in a deal. In the $5-7M range.

I like Robinson but I’m not sure you pay anything over 2 million for a guy who’s destined for the 4th line now with the addition of hall. I could see them bringing back Jaaska on a cheap 1 year deal or potentially find another Robinson in free agency. Just because you have a ton of cap space doesn’t mean 4th line players should be getting 2 million plus

 

[DaveG]

Yeah I think we're stuck with Burns for the rest of the year with maybe doing something like Andersson at the deadline if the cap space is somehow there to do it (Roslovic out on a 3 team deal?). But he'd be an expensive pickup considering his bargain contact. Again not sure how Orlov-Burns would go but it would be a major upgrade at RD1 going to Slavin-Andersson