Roster Building XXII: Too Many Forwards, Hopefully One Cup

[AD Skinner]

Here do this thing you wanted to do or do this same thing you wanted to do in a different location for several million more dollars.

A madman

 

[Derailed75]

Questioning Guenztal’s mental state because he didn’t sign with the team is a WILD take.

I wasn't questioning his mental state, I was saying he didn't really want to stay. If the reason he decided to leave is because they waited to meet his contract demands instead of meeting them up front then yes I would in fact question his mental state. I dont think he ever really wanted to stay.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Fair enough, but a well adjusted adult doesn't move to another offer because the first one wasn't good enough if he really wanted to stay.

Sometimes players prefer other locations or systems, nothing more

Edit: ignore, i see your response

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

No carrier again today

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I wasn't questioning his mental state, I was saying he didn't really want to stay. If the reason he decided to leave is because they waited to meet his contract demands instead of meeting them up front then yes I would in fact question his mental state. I dont think he ever really wanted to stay.

So despite the fact that all indications at the time were that he wanted to stay, the organization worked to sign him under the understanding that he wanted to stay (even losing the chance to sign other upcoming UFAs in the process), he himself said he wanted to stay and his agent also believed he was going to stay, you're going with "He never wanted to stay"

And that's more believable to you than "The organization that's known to be difficult to negotiate with was difficult to negotiate with and that negotiation dragged on long enough that other options became available for Guentzel."?

Alright, like I said, more power to you.

 

[MinJaBen]

No carrier again today

Should have splurged for a Traine instead.

 

[Derailed75]

So despite the fact that all indications at the time were that he wanted to stay, the organization worked to sign him under the understanding that he wanted to stay (even losing the chance to sign other upcoming UFAs in the process), he himself said he wanted to stay and his agent also believed he was going to stay, you're going with "He never wanted to stay"

And that's more believable to you than "The organization that's known to be difficult to negotiate with was difficult to negotiate with and that negotiation dragged on long enough that other options became available for Guentzel."?

Alright, like I said, more power to you.

So your take is that despite how badly this man wanted to stay a Cane that he acted like a petulant child and left because they started negotiating on the low side and didn't meet his demands until late?
If thats the case and thats how a 30ish old man acts than the locker room is better off without him.

 

[The Jerk Store]

It's possible that the decision came town to taxes. Both teams may have made the same offer, but playing in FL vs NC meant taking home more money.

 

[Derailed75]

It's possible that the decision came town to taxes. Both teams may have made the same offer, but playing in FL vs NC meant taking home more money.

I figured the cost of living would balance out the taxes but I was way wrong. The cost of living in Tampa is actually a little lower than Raleigh. That kinda surprised me.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

So your take is that despite how badly this man wanted to stay a Cane that he acted like a petulant child and left because they started negotiating on the low side and didn't meet his demands until late?
If thats the case and thats how a 30ish old man acts than the locker room is better off without him.

Yeah, my take is exactly what's been reported since the failed signing (and was backed up by the quotes that started this discussion):

- Guentzel wanted to stay, gave his ask to the Canes (assumedly shortly after elimination, considering the Canes called getting him resigned "a top priority.")
- The Canes counteroffered, as one would expect to happen in negotiations. The two sides went back and forth, but Waddell leaving may have caused a stoppage or temporary halt to negotiations while Tulsky got himself situated.
- The draft is quickly approaching, and the two sides still aren't seeing eye to eye. Guentzel appears to have remained firm on his ask, while we continue to try and move him off of it.
- Finally, many weeks later, and a mere few days before he hits FA, we agree to match Guentzel's ask.
- But by that time, Guentzel has mentally moved on. It's hard to claim that the organization really values you when they wait until the last minute to give you what you ask for.
- Tampa Bay has likely contacted Guentzel or his agent by this point and expressed their interest, telling them to just say the word and they'll clear space to give him the contract he wants (again, a stark contrast to the teeth-pulling from Carolina)
- So despite agreeing to match, Guentzel no longer wants to sign here and we trade his rights to Tampa Bay, who cleared the space beforehand.

 

[CandyCanes]

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Just to keep an old topic going:

If i were to guess how it went.

JG wanted 8x8
Canes offered 8 x 7.5 or so because that 8th year is going to be bad

The negotiations commenced with DW and the agent

DW goes fishing for another gig and the negotiations stopped. The agent starts asking around to see who was interested. The agent found out Tampa would be interested at 9 x 7 because Stamkos isn’t staying. But they aren’t confident they can move cap to make it happen. JG is really interested in Tampa because of the extra money due to taxes.

Tlusty takes over and we get to 7.75 or 7.8 a year x 8 years 3 weeks before the draft. Tampa bay communicates that they aren’t confident they can move cap but they are still working it.

Guentzel who doesn’t want to miss out on money by going to Vancouver or going to a worse team on the market, says lets get this finished with Carolina.

AAV negotiations are all but agreed upon, rumors he will sign with the Canes come out. TB calls and says they are real close to moving out the cap. JG’s agent turns heel and says he will be signing with TB. Canes try one last effort but JG is more interested in TB and has been. The end.

 

[CandyCanes]

Still alive

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Still alive

Sweet, no really bad news yet

 

[hblueridgegal]

I am seeing more of this type of discussion than in years past. Will he be more creative and flexible or force compliance? In an interview this week, he acknowledged that he needs to listen to others more but in the next sentence sort of said the opposite.

 

[hblueridgegal]

 

[spockBokk]

If Guentzel truly wanted to stay, he would have signed. I don’t get why that’s such a sticking point.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I am seeing more of this type of discussion than in years past. Will he be more creative and flexible or force compliance? In an interview this week, he acknowledged that he needs to listen to others more but in the next sentence sort of said the opposite.

Rod is what he is, for better or for worse. While I'm sure he'd like to coach all styles and be able to accommodate everyone, he's probably going to stick with what's worked for him this far, both as a player and a coach. And that's emphasizing defensive responsibility at the cost of occasionally missing out on offensive chances. Some players can thrive in that style, some can adapt into it, and others simply can't. We'll see where any of our new pickups (and Necas) fall.

 

[WreckingCrew]

So several months then?

 

[hblueridgegal]

Rod is what he is, for better or for worse. While I'm sure he'd like to coach all styles and be able to accommodate everyone, he's probably going to stick with what's worked for him this far, both as a player and a coach. And that's emphasizing defensive responsibility at the cost of occasionally missing out on offensive chances. Some players can thrive in that style, some can adapt into it, and others simply can't. We'll see where any of our new pickups (and Necas) fall.

Shouldn't the capabilities and strengths/weaknesses of the roster that you have factor into the equation and strategy? Or, even those of the opponent you're facing? Seems like there is room for adjustments.

As Dan Hurley said "we started winning championships when we built the system around the strengths and talents of the players that we have instead of trying to force them to be something different." I think Jon Cooper ascribes to this philosophy as well.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Shouldn't the capabilities and strengths/weaknesses of the roster that you have factor into the equation and strategy? Or, even those of the opponent you're facing? Seems like there is room for adjustments.

As Dan Hurley said "we started winning championships when we built the system around the strengths and talents of the players that we have instead of trying to force them to be something different." I think Jon Cooper ascribes to this philosophy as well.

Of course there are adjustments from game to game or opponent to opponent. But you’re never going to get a guy like Brindamour to be OK with a 50-foot game player. He wants all of his players to give 100%, and in his mind, someone who only cares about offense is only playing half the game. And it’s especially egregious when the player has the tools to play a solid defensive game, but can’t get there mentally (Necas being the biggest offender of late).

I mean, we know how fast Necas is. But how often is he using that speed to back check?

 

[hblueridgegal]

Of course there are adjustments from game to game or opponent to opponent. But you’re never going to get a guy like Brindamour to be OK with a 50-foot game player. He wants all of his players to give 100%, and in his mind, someone who only cares about offense is only playing half the game. And it’s especially egregious when the player has the tools to play a solid defensive game, but can’t get there mentally (Necas being the biggest offender of late).

I mean, we know how fast Necas is. But how often is he using that speed to back check?

This isn't about Necas. It's about coming up short several years in a row as the leader of the team. While he has obviously had a certain level of success ..wouldn't you still want to evolve and grow in your approach and be a little less predictable?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

This isn't about Necas. It's about coming up short several years in a row as the leader of the team. While he has obviously had a certain level of success ..wouldn't you still want to evolve and grow in your approach and be a little less predictable?

His approach has led the team to three straight 50+ win seasons, three divisional titles, six straight playoff appearances and two conference finals. There are very few coaches that can boast that kind of success in that amount of time.

So no, I don’t want him to attempt to coach a way he’s not accustomed to coaching. Not only because it’d likely come off as fake, but because it’d send mixed messages to his players.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Sometimes you gotta play to your strengths. I also doubt most of us are qualified or plugged in enough to know how much Rod has or hasn't changed or any other coach in comparison.

And, as per usual, having tremendous success, but not the ultimate success, doesn't mean anything he's doing is wrong or can't be used to win it all.

Also, it was interesting to hear Tulsky mentioning that they made several moves in the off-season that maybe not every team would but because they thought they'd be the best fit for Rod and his system. For as good as Waddell was as a GM here, he certainly brought in some tough fits at times.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

We have seen adjustment to our system with the players we have.

We almost exclusively dumped and chased until the last 3 seasons with Necas and others. Add in Necas gets a lot of ice time despite his oil and water like mix with this system. We don’t really force the system on him because he doesn’t play it anyways.

Edit: we also saw a major philosophy change in the team from 18-19 to 19-20.