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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: (still) No Quinn In NY Edition
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GENESISPuck94
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Was just curious to confirm something I was thinking about and did the research...
Leetch was the last defenseman to score 100+ points in a season in the NHL (102 pts in 1991-92).
Josi scored 96 points this past season, the highest single season points total for an NHL defenseman since Phil Housley (97 pts in 1992-93). Josi scored double digits more points (10) than Makar. Somehow Josi was denied the Norris.
Josi had the best offensive season of any NHL defenseman in the last 29 years and was denied the Norris.
Absolute bananas.
Leetch was the last defenseman to score 100+ points in a season in the NHL (102 pts in 1991-92).
Josi scored 96 points this past season, the highest single season points total for an NHL defenseman since Phil Housley (97 pts in 1992-93). Josi scored double digits more points (10) than Makar. Somehow Josi was denied the Norris.
Josi had the best offensive season of any NHL defenseman in the last 29 years and was denied the Norris.
Absolute bananas.
In the 2019/20 season, Carlson ended up finishing 10 points ahead of Josi (was pacing for 89 points on the season). While not 96 points like what Josi just accomplished, he was still able to have a points gap that was the same as the Josi/Makar gap, yet accomplished it in a shorter season.
Why did Josi win the Norris that season over Carlson?
- Apr 16, 2012
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Savant
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Would watch to see if the Canes buy out Gardiner. He actually wouldn’t be the worse idea and probably would be vet min/PTO guy. Think he works next to Schneider too if he is healthy.
Bit surprised De Haan took PTO but he also wanted to go back to Carolina
That’s a softball. Carlson is a meh defensive player. Great on the power play.
You basically just described why Josi didn't win this season.
You're either basing this off of Josi's game of past seasons, didn't watch Makar and Josi play this season, or both.
Due to the construction of Nashville Josi was asked to focus a lot more at driving offense for his team. Because of this his defensive impact, which was always solid in past seasons, took a massive dive. He was not looked upon to play against the opponents best players, stop PK around the start of January (which coincided with Josi's spike in offense) and still allowed a lot of offense against (off-setted by how much offense he generated though).
Makar on the other hand, plays the majority of his minutes vs other teams best players, PK'd more and provided way better defense (eye test and analytics) while still maintaining his high level offense.
rangers1314
Registered User
GENESISPuck94
Registered User
I don't know, honestly.
The Norris is supposed to go to the "best overall" defenseman, but it doesn't always.
Just like how the Hart most of the time ends up going to the leading scorer even though the Rocket Richard already does... I feel like the Norris should simply start being awarded to the leading scoring defenseman of the season and start a new award that goes to "best overall defenseman".
SA16
Sixstring
The Hart and Richard have went to the same player twice in the last ten years. And five in 25 years (of which three were Ovechkin).
Savant
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wanted to go back to his old team. Can’t do much about that.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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I always thought there should be a "Best offensive defenseman" category like the Selke for forwards.
The Norris swings depending on the season as to how much points are emphasized. One year Doughty won it over Karlsson despite a 31 point gap in offensive production. Karlsson got punished more or less each year based on his defensive deficiencies.
Still, it's an improvement over the stretch of years where we just handed the trophy to Lidstrom every season.
The Norris swings depending on the season as to how much points are emphasized. One year Doughty won it over Karlsson despite a 31 point gap in offensive production. Karlsson got punished more or less each year based on his defensive deficiencies.
Still, it's an improvement over the stretch of years where we just handed the trophy to Lidstrom every season.
He was decent for them. He has familiarity. Yay this means more games for Scrubordi Tinordi in preseason. Need uograde so he stays in Hartford
- Sep 17, 2007
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Can't buy out players until next June. According to a poster on the trade board, Waddell said that Gardiner is expected to be on LTIR the entire year.
- Apr 16, 2012
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I watched them. I disagree with your assessment, regardless of what their teams asked of them. Makar makes a LOT of defensive mistakes. Did so in the playoffs as well. Though I think he was starting to get it. He may be better in that department going forward. But for last season, IMO Josi was a more solid defensive d man.
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GENESISPuck94
Registered User
LiveLongandProspal
NY Rangers = America's Team
The Islanders aren't a New York team. I mean they are, but they're closer to the Sabres than the Rangers as far as "New York Fabric"
And the Devils are a complete afterthought. Let them go and bother the Flyers.
And the Devils are a complete afterthought. Let them go and bother the Flyers.
nsvoyageurs
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Savant
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Wow my posting this lit a fire around the league 8^)
3 guys on list (DeHaan, DeKeyser, (De)Harrigton) signed PTOs today
Then, respectably, I'd would question your ability how to judge a persons defensive impact.
Makar
Josi
(Orange bar is the even-strength defensive GAR and the teal is PK)
Josi
(Orange bar is the even-strength defensive GAR and the teal is PK)
This isn't me saying that Josi is like some Barrie or DeAngelo level defensive impact player. He has shown, in the past, that he is in a large part a positive from a defensive impact view for his team. Just not last season. And this isn't because of any crazy decrease in skill in defense on Josi's part, but because of what the Preds needed from him in order to give themselves the best chance at winning games. And that was with Josi just going all out offense at the expense of his defense.
All of these analytics show that Makar was significantly better than Josi on the defensive end. Makar's defensive analytics wouldn't be this much better this past season than Josi's if Makar wasn't a simply a better defender.
- Apr 16, 2012
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Respectively, I will sleep just fine tonight with you questioning that ability. And unlike a lot of people I don’t need to convince anyone else to agree with me. Hahahaha.Then, respectably, I'd would question your ability how to judge a persons defensive impact.
Colorado was miles better defensively when Makar was on the ice this past season. Nashville as a team was better defensively when Josi was on the bench. Similar situation with PKing.Makar
Josi
(Orange bar is the even-strength defensive GAR and the teal is PK)
This isn't me saying that Josi is like some Barrie or DeAngelo level defensive impact player. He has shown, in the past, that he is in a large part a positive from a defensive impact view for his team. Just not last season. And this isn't because of any crazy decrease in skill in defense on Josi's part, but because of what the Preds needed from him in order to give themselves the best chance at winning games. And that was with Josi just going all out offense at the expense of his defense.
All of these analytics show that Makar was significantly better than Josi on the defensive end. Makar's defensive analytics wouldn't be this much better this past season than Josi's if Makar wasn't a simply a better defender.
Fitzy
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Part of good defense can be keeping the puck in the oppositions zone, not just how you defend once they are past the red line.
Makar being a possession monster means the number of situations where he has to “defend” traditionally are much fewer. Malik and Roszival didn’t have to defend much during 2006 because the Jagr line was so dominant that they always had the puck.
Good forechecking from a forward line can have a similar effect on analytics.
So in Makars case it’s clear that his puck possession matters far more than his occasional gaffes. Gaffes (Like with trouba and Roszival) get a lot of attention because the are so obvious and visible even to casual fans, but they tell far from the whole story.
Apologies for the long winded post on an issue only tangentially related to our team
Makar being a possession monster means the number of situations where he has to “defend” traditionally are much fewer. Malik and Roszival didn’t have to defend much during 2006 because the Jagr line was so dominant that they always had the puck.
Good forechecking from a forward line can have a similar effect on analytics.
So in Makars case it’s clear that his puck possession matters far more than his occasional gaffes. Gaffes (Like with trouba and Roszival) get a lot of attention because the are so obvious and visible even to casual fans, but they tell far from the whole story.
Apologies for the long winded post on an issue only tangentially related to our team
SA16
Sixstring
Is it just me that is moderately confused about why there is an Avs fan in the HFNYR Roster Building Thread debating Makar vs Josi?
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