Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXVI

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JimmyG89

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So the cap is going up 1M this season, just a little boost the league is giving, probably to just let teams operate for next year since a lot of teams had issues this year.



So, we've got 22-23 at 82.5. 23-24 could be 83.5 if they give another small boost. HRR is going to be significantly higher the next few years. Hopefully the economy can recover from where it is currently and we'll see that big boost. The new deals they just signed have to be accounted for right? I think we could see the cap go from 83.5M to near 100M for 24-25.
 

DialUp

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Drury should get ahead of all this and ask them to start thinking about waiving probably after game 3 of the first round. Maybe say something like "the housing market in Edmonton should cool off a bit in September, have you seen Zillow?"
 

jerseyjinx94

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The problem with Trouba is he is very important to the team. He was targeted because he is a unicorn. He’s big, strong, physical, can pass out of the zone above average and has a pretty damn good shot. He’s not elite at anything but he’s above average at all those aspects, and the size and strength is really important for the playoffs, particularly when our D lacks that mostly (Miller and Schneider are still young but may bring that some day).

That being said, he is being paid at the high end of a 2nd pairing D and the low end of a top pairing D, so his contract is not a “value” contract. He’s probably $1.5M overpaid for optimal performance (whereas Mika, at $8.5M, is probably $1-1.5M underpaid).

There isn’t any real problem with Trouba and he’s currently a really important part of the team. But it is fair to wonder if, in a year or even after this season, that money can’t be better allocated to other areas. It’s not necessarily a knock on Trouba, because I love what he brings. But at $8M, it’s a little pricey and we need space to prevent weaknesses in other areas.

Kreider took a below market deal when he signed and is really the only other viable commodity to move to create space. He’s a homegrown Ranger, the leader of the team, has scored 50 goals. It’s extremely unlikely they move him.

Moving Chytil or Goodrow are also options but don’t really move the needle much cap wise and Goodrow in particular is very unlikely to be going anywhere.

If Copp or Vatrano take team friendly deals and they squeeze Kakko (which probably isn’t smart long term) and reconcile with Kravtsov, they should be able to get by next year, with extremely limited space. But the following season they’d have about $16M in spave and need to lock up KAM and Laf long term, which could eat up all of that space. At that point, they really need to consider moving Trouba or Kreider to get some breathing room. It’s just the unfortunate reality.

For now, both Kreider and Trouba are integral to our success, and we’re entering hopefully what can be a deep playoff run. I’m just gonna enjoy what they bring and hope it translates, and deal with the cap later
 

duhmetreE

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It actually often does, it's just not a guarantee.
You're not understanding what I meant.

Time is an aspect often ignored in your arguments. No one is arguing the kids can't take over eventually but now is not that time.

When the kids start steadily outplaying Trouba and Kreider, we can have that conversation. ( Furthermore, if/when the kids reach that level, it means we are stacked. ) Until their NMC's turn into m-NTC and the cap goes up.... it's all moot.

We're having one of the best seasons in the organizations history with Kreider and Trouba leading the way... Trading either one this coming offseason is just not happening. It's literally 'year 1' of our window being open. Why would we want to get rid of our leaders and why would those leaders accept a trade to a bottom dweller?

We have another 2-3 years( not including this one ) coming up with this team intact. If the kids peak during this time along with our strong veteran play, we have a legit chance at a Stanley Cup.
 
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Rangers in 7

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You're not understanding what I meant.

Time is an aspect often ignored in your arguments. No one is arguing the kids can't take over eventually but now is not that time.

When the kids start steadily outplaying Trouba and Kreider, we can have that conversation. Until their NMC's turn into m-NTC and the cap goes up. Until then, it's moot.

We're having one of the best seasons in the organizations history with Kreider and Trouba leading the way... Trading either one this coming offseason is just not happening. It's literally year 1 of our window being open. Why would we want to get rid of our leaders and why would those leaders accept a trade to a bottom dweller?
i think the argument is to trade them in 2 or 3 seasons from now
 

BobMarleyNYR

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The problem with Trouba is he is very important to the team. He was targeted because he is a unicorn. He’s big, strong, physical, can pass out of the zone above average and has a pretty damn good shot. He’s not elite at anything but he’s above average at all those aspects, and the size and strength is really important for the playoffs, particularly when our D lacks that mostly (Miller and Schneider are still young but may bring that some day).

That being said, he is being paid at the high end of a 2nd pairing D and the low end of a top pairing D, so his contract is not a “value” contract. He’s probably $1.5M overpaid for optimal performance (whereas Mika, at $8.5M, is probably $1-1.5M underpaid).

There isn’t any real problem with Trouba and he’s currently a really important part of the team. But it is fair to wonder if, in a year or even after this season, that money can’t be better allocated to other areas. It’s not necessarily a knock on Trouba, because I love what he brings. But at $8M, it’s a little pricey and we need space to prevent weaknesses in other areas.

Kreider took a below market deal when he signed and is really the only other viable commodity to move to create space. He’s a homegrown Ranger, the leader of the team, has scored 50 goals. It’s extremely unlikely they move him.

Moving Chytil or Goodrow are also options but don’t really move the needle much cap wise and Goodrow in particular is very unlikely to be going anywhere.

If Copp or Vatrano take team friendly deals and they squeeze Kakko (which probably isn’t smart long term) and reconcile with Kravtsov, they should be able to get by next year, with extremely limited space. But the following season they’d have about $16M in spave and need to lock up KAM and Laf long term, which could eat up all of that space. At that point, they really need to consider moving Trouba or Kreider to get some breathing room. It’s just the unfortunate reality.

For now, both Kreider and Trouba are integral to our success, and we’re entering hopefully what can be a deep playoff run. I’m just gonna enjoy what they bring and hope it translates, and deal with the cap later
Kreider did not take a below market deal.
 

PuckLuck3043

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This has been my stance all year. I want the league to underestimate the Rangers, its a competitive advantage
Maybe some goobers on twitter think that and they don't count but any team playing us in the playoffs knows exactly what they are getting. They will not be underestimating this team at all.
 

Bacon Artemi Bravo

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But doesn't the decline in relationship increase the odds that the player will want out? I think that's kinda the point, once a player hears that he is not wanted, or at least not wanted in the same role, he will want to go somewhere that he is wanted.

I'm not suggesting the Rangers call up Trouba the minute the season ends and say "Hey bub, you aren't worth your salary, we want you to get the F out, whaddaya say?" But at some point it will become apparent to them that is the case and that conversation will have to be had tactfully with Trouba. That he is worth more to some other team than he is to the Rangers. The day is coming... maybe not this offseason, but as each season passes becomes more and more likely.

And the real discrepancy seems to be that a certain faction wants to iron-clad that date as 2023-2024 when the NMC expires to a limited NTC, where others seem to be saying "What real difference does a year make? Why not after 2022-2023? If a trade could make it worth our while, it makes sense to move on a year early."

Ie, we are talking basically about a difference in timing and when that timing makes sense.



What Trouba brings over Schneider right now is offense and not defense. I mean, these are advanced stat-driven so of course we can nitpick what these things really mean but the fact is Schneider is plain excellent at defense. There's really no debate whatsoever that Schneider is soon going to be able to handle Trouba's defensive responsibilities in a more than adequate fashion. The debate would be whether it's worth keeping Trouba WITH Schneider, but the argument I keep hearing is "we can't move Trouba because we have no one to replace him," which is not true. A better argument would be "we can't move Trouba because we can't replace Schneider on the third pair when Schneider moves up." Certainly you have less proven options for that third pair role but if you are going to drag your feet for clearing up $8m in salary because you can't trust second year players in Nils and Jones or a first year player in Robertson on that third pair, well, that's not really reasonable either. A playoff contender isn't risking everything by playing highly regarded rookies on the third pair, because, uh, look at us doing exactly that with Schneider this very year.

And yes I tend to be skeptical of intangibles because they cannot be measured and are almost basically a personal preference in how much they count. I of course acknowledge that the experience, the body checking impact, and the leadership that Trouba brings is valuable. But because they cannot be measured it's hard to quantify how valuable they are in relation to his actual on-ice defensive play definitely not being worth $8m.

Proponents of those intangibles know this and disingenuously base their arguments almost entirely around these non-quantifiable things as trump cards. "Sure, Schneider is just as good as Trouba, but EXPERIENCE! CASE CLOSED!" Come on. Of course experience is worth something but guess who else is getting some this year? Fox. Lindgren. Miller. There is value to that but it has to be contextualized and that's something that is never acknowledged.... that those values are not priceless and they are not irreplaceable and they are not mandatory when you have other leaders on the team as well (like Panarin, Kreider, Zibanejad, Copp, etc).

Anywhere, here's the stat cards. For good measure I'm throwing in Miller's so you can see his jump from last year to this year as it's reasonable to conclude Schneider also continues to develop along a similar arch (ie, a GSVA of 0.5 - 1.0 is probably reasonable for Schneider next year with an even more positive defensive rating; and again, the deficiency between Schneider and Trouba's overall GSVAs will probably be offensive driving entirely). For comparison last year Miller was -0.2 and this year Schneider is 0.0 pace but 0.2 projection (meaning the model thinks he will still slightly improve).



I don't know all the data that goes into these defensive ratings - but what I can say for a fact is that Schneider has only played 38 games this year and he's playing 15 mins a game compared to Trouba's 22 mins. Further, obviously Trouba is also being matched up against better players as well. Perhaps that last point IS factored into that rating but I think it's still a pretty small sample size from Schneids to crown him just as - if not better than Trouba defensively.
 
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RangerBoy

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So the cap is going up 1M this season, just a little boost the league is giving, probably to just let teams operate for next year since a lot of teams had issues this year.



So, we've got 22-23 at 82.5. 23-24 could be 83.5 if they give another small boost. HRR is going to be significantly higher the next few years. Hopefully the economy can recover from where it is currently and we'll see that big boost. The new deals they just signed have to be accounted for right? I think we could see the cap go from 83.5M to near 100M for 24-25.

 

NYR Viper

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I really wonder if the teams and the players come together at the end of 2023-2024, if everything is trending in the direction of a crazy cap hike in one off-season, if they instead look for a 'softer landing' by increasing by $3-4m that off-season rather than $10-12m the following year. It seems silly to just stick their head in the sand and then increase it by 10-15% in one off-season because of COVID.
 

mas0764

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You're not understanding what I meant.

Time is an aspect often ignored in your arguments. No one is arguing the kids can't take over eventually but now is not that time.

When the kids start steadily outplaying Trouba and Kreider, we can have that conversation. ( Furthermore, if/when the kids reach that level, it means we are stacked. ) Until their NMC's turn into m-NTC and the cap goes up.... it's all moot.

We're having one of the best seasons in the organizations history with Kreider and Trouba leading the way... Trading either one this coming offseason is just not happening. It's literally 'year 1' of our window being open. Why would we want to get rid of our leaders and why would those leaders accept a trade to a bottom dweller?

We have another 2-3 years( not including this one ) coming up with this team intact. If the kids peak during this time along with our strong veteran play, we have a legit chance at a Stanley Cup.

I think time is at the heart of the entire debate and I'm not ignoring it at all, it's just a disagreement.

We also have to set aside the "would the player waive" question because if they won't, there's no way we could ultimately force them to if they refused.

Where I conceptually have a problem is that I don't think you need to wait until "the kids," start outplaying either Trouba or Kreider. I don't have a problem with reasonable projection and I don't have a problem with it if that projections says you are likely to have a season of growing pains with the replacement if the other inducements are sufficient and the positives outweigh the negatives. As an example, you'd obviously trade Trouba if he was a part of a package for Connor McDavid. Sure, you're getting worse on defense, but you're getting way, way, way better at forward. You do that deal whether Schneider is ready or not.

The heart of the debate is that many don't seem to believe that a top 10 center prospect, and the cap room to bring back Vatrano and Motte and extend Laf/Miller to reasonable long term deals instead of bridge deals, is a worthwhile trade-off for the downgrade of Trouba to Schneider on the second pair and Schneider to, say, Jones, on the third pair.

I think that trade off is worth it. I don't think you have to wait until Schneider is actually better than Trouba to consider such deals. If someone was to make you a sweetheart deal today, or next year, or whatever, you have to consider not just that you are downgrading by moving Trouba, but also how you are upgrading the rest of your team, ie, not only would you be strengthening your bottom two lines "today," with Vatrano and Motte, but you are also saving yourself having to spend many other resources later to find a young 2C, and you can use THOSE resources on other things. It's also a good thing to be chasing value contracts. Some say "Well I let the beancounters worry about that" - but don't you realize that beancounting impacts if you are able to sign the next Artemi Panarin, or if you are able to keep all your young stars? Beancounting is important. Moving out a contributing player so that you can sign a future cornerstone to a manageable long term deal IS something that should be considered.

Frankly I think what is often ignored here is the impact of futures. Too many people dismiss it by saying "We're trying to win now, we don't care about futures." It's fine if you don't like the particular deal, but that overall mindset is wrong. You should always be evaluating acquiring potential futures. Like, if somehow you could secure the rights to Bedard in the following draft for Trouba, yes, you should really do that.

I know you will counter with "We don't need to worry about that right now, we can keep the core together," but not only do we have some posters positing whether we need to move on from Chytil (bad idea) to clear cap room, but maybe even Kakko (fireable idea) if his bridge deal is too much.

Yeah, when that becomes a serious question it's time to start looking at players who maybe make too much.
 
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mas0764

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I don't know all the data that goes into these defensive ratings - but what I can say for a fact is that Schneider has only played 38 games this year and he's playing 15 mins a game compared to Trouba's 22 mins. Further, obviously Trouba is also being matched up against better players as well. Perhaps that last point IS factored into that rating but I think it's still a pretty small sample size from Schneids to crown him just as - if not better than Trouba defensively.

I do not think its a stretch to say he will soon be better or at least equal. The defensive ratings are pretty far apart there.

Miller plays on the same pair and draws the same assignments and his defensive ratings are better than Trouba's.
 

mas0764

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The problem with Trouba is he is very important to the team. He was targeted because he is a unicorn. He’s big, strong, physical, can pass out of the zone above average and has a pretty damn good shot. He’s not elite at anything but he’s above average at all those aspects, and the size and strength is really important for the playoffs, particularly when our D lacks that mostly (Miller and Schneider are still young but may bring that some day).

That being said, he is being paid at the high end of a 2nd pairing D and the low end of a top pairing D, so his contract is not a “value” contract. He’s probably $1.5M overpaid for optimal performance (whereas Mika, at $8.5M, is probably $1-1.5M underpaid).

There isn’t any real problem with Trouba and he’s currently a really important part of the team. But it is fair to wonder if, in a year or even after this season, that money can’t be better allocated to other areas. It’s not necessarily a knock on Trouba, because I love what he brings. But at $8M, it’s a little pricey and we need space to prevent weaknesses in other areas.

Kreider took a below market deal when he signed and is really the only other viable commodity to move to create space. He’s a homegrown Ranger, the leader of the team, has scored 50 goals. It’s extremely unlikely they move him.

Moving Chytil or Goodrow are also options but don’t really move the needle much cap wise and Goodrow in particular is very unlikely to be going anywhere.

If Copp or Vatrano take team friendly deals and they squeeze Kakko (which probably isn’t smart long term) and reconcile with Kravtsov, they should be able to get by next year, with extremely limited space. But the following season they’d have about $16M in spave and need to lock up KAM and Laf long term, which could eat up all of that space. At that point, they really need to consider moving Trouba or Kreider to get some breathing room. It’s just the unfortunate reality.

For now, both Kreider and Trouba are integral to our success, and we’re entering hopefully what can be a deep playoff run. I’m just gonna enjoy what they bring and hope it translates, and deal with the cap later

I mean, this is more or less what I'm saying.

Just that since the "unfortunate reality," as you put it, is probably coming after 22-23, I would consider doing it after 21-22 if I got a good enough offer.

And yeah, I f***ing hate the idea of squeezing Kakko. He's a long term piece here and should be prioritized. I'd rather move someone else out and extend Kakko as long as I can.
 

Pawnee Rangers

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I think time is at the heart of the entire debate and I'm not ignoring it at all, it's just a disagreement.

We also have to set aside the "would the player waive" question because if they won't, there's no way we could ultimately force them to if they refused.

Where I conceptually have a problem is that I don't think you need to wait until "the kids," start outplaying either Trouba or Kreider. I don't have a problem with reasonable projection and I don't have a problem with it if that projections says you are likely to have a season of growing pains with the replacement if the other inducements are sufficient and the positives outweigh the negatives. As an example, you'd obviously trade Trouba if he was a part of a package for Connor McDavid. Sure, you're getting worse on defense, but you're getting way, way, way better at forward. You do that deal whether Schneider is ready or not.

The heart of the debate is that many don't seem to believe that a top 10 center prospect, and the cap room to bring back Vatrano and Motte and extend Laf/Miller to reasonable long term deals instead of bridge deals, is a worthwhile trade-off for the downgrade of Trouba to Schneider on the second pair and Schneider to, say, Jones, on the third pair.

I think that trade off is worth it. I don't think you have to wait until Schneider is actually better than Trouba to consider such deals. If someone was to make you a sweetheart deal today, or next year, or whatever, you have to consider not just that you are downgrading by moving Trouba, but also how you are upgrading the rest of your team, ie, not only would you be strengthening your bottom two lines "today," with Vatrano and Motte, but you are also saving yourself having to spend many other resources later to find a young 2C, and you can use THOSE resources on other things. It's also a good thing to be chasing value contracts. Some say "Well I let the beancounters worry about that" - but don't you realize that beancounting impacts if you are able to sign the next Artemi Panarin, or if you are able to keep all your young stars? Beancounting is important. Moving out a contributing player so that you can sign a future cornerstone to a manageable long term deal IS something that should be considered.

Frankly I think what is often ignored here is the impact of futures. Too many people dismiss it by saying "We're trying to win now, we don't care about futures." It's fine if you don't like the particular deal, but that overall mindset is wrong. You should always be evaluating acquiring potential futures. Like, if somehow you could secure the rights to Bedard in the following draft for Trouba, yes, you should really do that.

I know you will counter with "We don't need to worry about that right now, we can keep the core together," but not only do we have some posters positing whether we need to move on from Chytil (bad idea) to clear cap room, but maybe even Kakko (fireable idea) if his bridge deal is too much.

Yeah, when that becomes a serious question it's time to start looking at players who maybe make too much.
You're arguing with yourself at this point.
 

MrAlmost

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The Rangers can make the cap work pretty well until the 24-25 season. However, I suspect like Viper said that the league may provide a larger increase then $1 million at that time cause having the cap go up by $12-15 million in one offseason can cause very large issues, and not for the top teams, but for the Cap Floor teams.

I wonder if they would do $4 million before the 24-25 season and then the rest, around $8-10, split between 25-26 and 26-27. Too big of a hike in one offseason is not good.
 

Tob

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That's why we can't afford to give Strome anything more than what he's making now. Times are tough. He'll accept $5X4.
 

huerter

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How is Trouba being paid like a high end 2nd pairing D when his cap hit is tied for 10th amongst Dmen? Carlson, Burns, Chabot....all being paid like high end 2nd pairing D.
 
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McRanger92

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That's why we can't afford to give Strome anything more than what he's making now. Times are tough. He'll accept $5X4.

Im sure Strome wants to see whats out there, but when push comes to shove im fairly certain Strome will take a significant discount to stay here if his only other options are teams like Ottawa & Seattle. Copp will be the guy who gets more than we expect (5-5.5 range), and I personally would pay him over Strome at a discount
 
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NYR Viper

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Im sure Strome wants to see whats out there, but when push comes to shove im fairly certain Strome will take a significant discount to stay here if his only other options are teams like Ottawa & Seattle. Copp will be the guy who gets more than we expect (5-5.5 range), and I personally would pay him over Strome at a discount

I don't think Copp gets much over $5m. I also don't think Strome gets much over $5m. Danault contract is the precursor.
 

Fitzy

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Panarin a furry confirmed

1650478487170.png


His name is PeachFuzz
 
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