Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIII

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I disagree. I'm in the camp that we need to resign him for the reasons Larry referenced. At the same time I'm not opposed to trading him in the right deal. But what is the right deal? And how do you know that what you get back will match or exceed what you dealt. We know what we have in Kreider. He has handled playing in NY. He's a playoff performer. And he's part of the leadership group, perhaps the future captain. This team just can't be kids. You need guys like Kreider to lead the way.

Can we really say CK is a playoff performer?

77 GP in the postseason, 37 points. Last postseason we were in: 4 points in 12 games.

I still can't get his missed breakaway chances vs. LA out of my head...we really should stop this notion.

I'm not opposed to signing him long-term--as I think he will still be a player that drives possession throughout the length of his next contract--but let's temper the labels we give him.
 
Also worth mentioning that Brooks thinking Kreider can be signed for 6x6 is absurd. 7+ and likely 7 years, I dont know how I feel about that really but that's where his value is.
 
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Can we really say CK is a playoff performer?

77 GP in the postseason, 37 points. Last postseason we were in: 4 points in 12 games.

I still can't get his missed breakaway chances vs. LA out of my head...we really should stop this notion.

I'm not opposed to signing him long-term--as I think he will still be a player that drives possession throughout the length of his next contract--but let's temper the labels we give him.

Relative to everyone else. Yes.
 
Can we really say CK is a playoff performer?

77 GP in the postseason, 37 points. Last postseason we were in: 4 points in 12 games.

I still can't get his missed breakaway chances vs. LA out of my head...we really should stop this notion.

I'm not opposed to signing him long-term--as I think he will still be a player that drives possession throughout the length of his next contract--but let's temper the labels we give him.

He’s scored a ton of goals in the playoffs, big goals.

He’s completely taken over a series before as well. He’s had a bad run, but for the most part he’s been in the middle of a bunch of our biggest moments during the “run”
 
I am not a fan of Brook's personality, especially his sense of entitlement, but he is a pretty good reporter, especially in these times when they are quite rare. He came up in a time without any analytics, and while an old mentality appears in some of his reporting he has worked quite hard to understand the newer parts of the game as well. For this, he should be given credit.

It's clear his interpretation of A prospect is far different from yours. Chytil and Miller are unlikely to be game-breakers. They may turn into very good, top line players, but it seems rather obvious to me that Brooks was referring to game-breaking talents, not necessarily generational, but someone who you can build your team around for a decade. In that sense, I can't say I fully disagree with him. Kravtsov might become that guy, but we are undoubtedly still lacking someone who projects to be a can't-miss, sure fire, perennial all-star.

You can argue Chytil, Miller and Kravtsov could turn into that, but they are not sure things, far from it, especially Miller who has a lot of tools to be excited about, but is still a ways off from the NHL. Hughes, Kakko, Cozens, these are the kinds of guys that change the trajectory of a franchise and, in my opinion, is who he is referring to.
And as always the solution here isn’t to get one as a UFA when they cost the most and have the least to give... the solution is to draft one of your own. Something this franchise hasn’t done since Hank. We all know the best way to find these players is to not pick #7 or #9 or anywhere outside the top-2 or so.

So what should we do?
 
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Kreider has an 11 no trade list. There is a very good chance Edmonton is on that list.

Kreider record was 53 pts. in 2016-17 season, but he is usually a 40 pts. player, and he is about to have record season if he continue in this pace. But I`ve a notion that both Mika & Kreider will go cold soon - especially if Zuccarello is dealt in this Allstar break. I hope Jeff is going to move pieces soon and not wait until March, because we could win too many games in the next two months.
 
Brooks continues to hedge on the guys that would bring the greatest return (Hayes and Kreider). I say trade them both. What are we hanging onto them for exactly? Does anyone get the sense that this squad is going to be competing for the cup in the next few years? If so, you're quite delusional. I am sick of the hedging - sick of the "well if you trade X, you better be getting a player back that will be equal to or better than X" - that's the risks you take if you're truly dedicated to a rebuild.

The Rangers are at a point where acquiring as many assets as humanly possible and attempting to maximize those assets should be paramount. With Lundqvist gone, and Kreider/Hayes getting into their 30's on long-term deals, I'd rather roll the dice on whatever assets we get back for them at this point.
 
Kreider's career stats are low because in 4 of his 5 full seasons he played around 15:30 a game. That's basically the entire reason. You don't put up big point totals with that little ice time. Shockingly enough his highest scoring season was the one year he was at 17 mins.
 
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Brooks continues to hedge on the guys that would bring the greatest return (Hayes and Kreider). I say trade them both. What are we hanging onto them for exactly? Does anyone get the sense that this squad is going to be competing for the cup in the next few years? If so, you're quite delusional. I am sick of the hedging - sick of the "well if you trade X, you better be getting a player back that will be equal to or better than X" - that's the risks you take if you're truly dedicated to a rebuild.

The Rangers are at a point where acquiring as many assets as humanly possible and attempting to maximize those assets should be paramount. With Lundqvist gone, and Kreider/Hayes getting into their 30's on long-term deals, I'd rather roll the dice on whatever assets we get back for them at this point.

I think the point of the article is, if you don't get a player equal, or close, to what Kreider brings, why make the trade? Does anyone think he's going to fall that far off the cliff in the next 5 years? There's plenty of expiring contracts to move at the deadline this season. I don't think anyone here is saying he can't be traded, it's just that the return has to make sense. And a mid to late first round pick and prospect doesn't make sense because chances are, that player won't bring what Kreider brings in the next 3-5 seasons. If they resign him to a fair deal, what's the problem keeping him? And I don't think rolling the dice with one of your best players is the best way to go about a rebuild.
 
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Brooks

Lots of opinions on Larry Brooks. I happen to like the guy. He does have Sather in his pocket. He does break pertinent info. I believe last season he was the one that first broke the rebuild. Also, for the last 24 months i thought he was right on when referencing the current state of the team. I do agree though, some of his ideas might be off a bit. Im not in the re-sign Hayes camp. I think Larry writes some of that stuff because over the course of time he gets these guys to open up. Needs to have relationships with them that he can get better paper out of. If Brooksie was to write, its time to move Hayes, theres no question it will be awkward the next time he is in his presence.

Kreider

If 6/6 was the number, do it and don't look back. $7 mil per season might be more likely. Still ok with that. He's a tremendous player for that amount of money. For the long term i think he and Zbad are as of the now the two most most important skaters on the club. Rangers know what they have in these guys. It's likely he will get a hual if he was to be moved. Lot's of different opinions on that, but in his case, he isn't the guy i would move for the definate/maybe. Poolparty is continuously mentioned. He's a nice project, however he is also a player who already has 132 NHL games and only 17 goals. He is also a player who has had played with significant Centers. McDavid, RNH, Draisaitl. When speaking about downside, that is always going to factor when you look to sign a player long term. When is the peak, and how much of the downward trajectory can you expect when he reaches his peak. I think this player, for the better part of his next contract will continue to not only factor but to be among the best players on the ice on a nightly basis. In addition to that, he is also among the best athletes on the team. Keeps himself in great shape. Lastly, Kreider is also a guy who when that decline does happen, he will still have ample enough speed to fill out the bottom half of the roster, and adapt into other roles. I honestly cannot say that for any of the former core of players that were here in the last 5 or 6 seasons, except for maybe Grabner, who was another physical specimen.

Is Kreider untouchable? Hell no, there isn't a single player here who is untouchable. But if a return started with #98, to me that makes zero sense.
 
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Brooks continues to hedge on the guys that would bring the greatest return (Hayes and Kreider). I say trade them both. What are we hanging onto them for exactly? Does anyone get the sense that this squad is going to be competing for the cup in the next few years? If so, you're quite delusional. I am sick of the hedging - sick of the "well if you trade X, you better be getting a player back that will be equal to or better than X" - that's the risks you take if you're truly dedicated to a rebuild.

The Rangers are at a point where acquiring as many assets as humanly possible and attempting to maximize those assets should be paramount. With Lundqvist gone, and Kreider/Hayes getting into their 30's on long-term deals, I'd rather roll the dice on whatever assets we get back for them at this point.

You can have a pretty quick turn around these days, we went from missing the playoffs in '10 to a good run in '12 to really good runs in '14 and '15, and we did it without a bunch of high picks. The team from '10 and '14 were almost completely different players.

But yeah assuming Hank will still be Hank in 4 years is the definition of excessively positive thinking.

Personally I would probably lean towards your path, but it would be a tough choice with Kreider. It may sound like a cop out but it really would depend on the return.
 
Someone made a salient point about NYR’s reasoning for a Kreider (I think it was that muppet @Edge), but if Gorton and co are internally frustrated about past deals they could’ve gotten for McDonagh (posturing that it was the Keller deal), it may make more sense to try to move Kreider at peak value.

It would really sting now, but if they can get something in a similar framework as the Mika for Brassard deal, they should explore it.

I’m still in favor of an extension and giving him the C, but I’d understand it if they moved him.
 
resigning hayes and ck and building around them isnt the same as the 90's when we signed fossils to retirement contracts and more recently, traded away 1st rounders to add vets thinking we were close.

that comparison doesnt work. this group has a plan and it deostn involve signing expense vet FA's. nor should it. 13, 93 an 20 dont fit that description anyway.

trading CK for anything other than an extreme overpayment would be irresponsible. the guy is a physical freak and exactly the type of player you build around. trading him to avoid his contract is dumb. news flash: good players get paid. keep 20. pay 20. hes in his prime.

you cant have a competitive team built of ELC's and FA's on value deals.

hayes and Zucc can be moved but again, prepare yourself for an underwhelming return. prepare your self for life after those 2 and the return not helping immediately or at all and the draft picks being exactly that. picks. players come later, if at all.

this rebuild can go one of 2 ways. total sell off and restart (5 yrs) or targeted roster turnover while on the fly- resign best players and dump the dead weight as best you can and make strategic trades and dart smart (1-3 yrs)

resigning CK doesn't have anything to do with the 90's or any other prior time period. hes arguably our best player. so are 13 and 93. best players.

best players get paid. period.
 
You can have a pretty quick turn around these days, we went from missing the playoffs in '10 to a good run in '12 to really good runs in '14 and '15, and we did it without a bunch of high picks. The team from '10 and '14 were almost completely different players.

But yeah assuming Hank will still be Hank in 4 years is the definition of excessively positive thinking.

Personally I would probably lean towards your path, but it would be a tough choice with Kreider. It may sound like a cop out but it really would depend on the return.

Totally, but one thing is for certain. The return, whatever it is, will never be greater than now, with 2 years/playoff runs remaining on Kreider's current deal with a sweetheart cap hit. The Rangers already made this mistake with Zuccarello. They shouldn't do it again.
 
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What's so great about Kreider that makes him "untouchable" anyways. The team already traded Mcd and Stepan who imo were better players. If there's a chance to get a top prospect or top 10 pick, you do it. The guy has surpassed 50 points once, he's not a superstar.
 
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Re: Kreider, if the Rangers get a serious offer, I think they'll strongly consider it.

Will that offer come? I don't know.

Will that offer meet board expectations? I don't know that either.

So, what what do you believe the Rangers would consider a serious offer?
 
What's so great about Kreider that makes him "untouchable" anyways. The team already traded Mcd and Stepan who imo were better players. If there's a chance to get a top prospect or top 10 pick, you do it. The guy has surpassed 50 points once, he's not a superstar.
People overvalue him because he's on our team. CK is a supplementary 1st/2nd liner, not a superstar. You plug players like him on your first or second line when you have the talent at C/RW for him to back up.
 
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People overvalue him because he's on our team. CK is a supplementary 1st/2nd liner, not a superstar. You plug players like him on your first or second line when you have the talent at C/RW for him to back up.

What Kreider is worth, and what the Rangers might accept for him are not the same. The Rangers are not in a position where they have to trade Kreider.
 
A top 10 pick and a good young player, but not necessarily a team's top prospect blue chip prospect.

But that's a hard partner to find.

Easier to find in June once the lottery is set, nearly impossible before the deadline since every pick might be 1st overall. Which theoretically pushes the trade past the playoffs which is as BRB pointed out might lower Kreiders overall trade value.

Like lets say Colorado thinks they can make noise this year and loves Kreider. But they cant trade Ottawas pick until they know where it is. They trade it to us top 3 protected but they win the lottery and then next year we get the 20th pick from them. Or they decide to wait and now its June, are they still giving the 6th or 8th overall pick for one year of Kreider?

Yeah its not an easy situation to navigate.
 
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