Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI
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I'd take Sean Avery back! Club needs a spark plug!
Good Intentions
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- Mar 30, 2018
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Personnel Steps to be taken, immediately:
1. Need Brendan Smith a continent away from MSG.
2. Allow Zuccarello to leave with respect. The situation has been dragged out and it's...well, ugly. -20 rating, emo media reports and quotes every couple weeks. Really appreciated all he's done for us, but we're done here.
3. Get a deal done for Hayes; whether that means a trade deal or a 18-page contract deal to resign him. Make a move.
4. Explore trading Buchnevich. It will never work here. AV, Quinn, doesn't matter. He'll be in the KHL before he's a formidable NHL forward. (See what we can get Vesey in a package deal).
1. Need Brendan Smith a continent away from MSG.
2. Allow Zuccarello to leave with respect. The situation has been dragged out and it's...well, ugly. -20 rating, emo media reports and quotes every couple weeks. Really appreciated all he's done for us, but we're done here.
3. Get a deal done for Hayes; whether that means a trade deal or a 18-page contract deal to resign him. Make a move.
4. Explore trading Buchnevich. It will never work here. AV, Quinn, doesn't matter. He'll be in the KHL before he's a formidable NHL forward. (See what we can get Vesey in a package deal).
Shesterkybomb
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The team still needs the assets that can be acquired from Hayes and Zuccarello and the sooner the better.
What did Smith do this time?
I would try to trade McQuaid and McLeod ASAP, not much return, but maybe addition by subtraction.
I still have fairly strong hopes that Buch will be able to improve. And I definitely think he fits the bill for a kid who could develop over a bit longer period than the norm. But if he doesn't -- why should we trade him ASAP?
What really matters in this league is not what you get from a player, its what you get from a player in relation to what you pay him that matters. Do we have any reason to believe that we will get less from Buch than what we will pay for? Three NHL seasons, he is tremendously consistent at scoring at a .5 clip so far. That is what we will end up paying for. I would be surprised if he started to score at a much lower rate down the road, think instead there is upside there.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
We don't know how this rebuild will go, but as far as how a rebuild might go, let's look at the Buffalo Sabres.
First off, it took time. The Sabres were shit for a long while and hit embarrassing lows. I'm rooting for us to not take that long, but that's best-case scenario.
They received a series of very high picks, and as many fear, yes, some of them only turned out to be ok. Rasmus Ristolainen turned out to just be good instead of being The Guy. But after a few kicks at the can, the Sabres got their core. They got Dahlin so Ristolainen doesn't have to be The Guy, he can just be good, and that's fine. We're seeing a similar narrative developing with Chytil. They got their center to build around for the next bajillion years, and in a more complimentary role, Sam Reinhart is having his best season.
Good players like Evander Kane and Ryan O'Reilly came and went, with the team ultimately deciding that they weren't part of the final vision. Other vets like Kyle Okposo and Jason Pominville are still around. What seems to have finally ended the rebuild was not a draft pick, but a trade, with the Jeff Skinner deal being a win the likes of which nobody foresaw.
The point I'm making here is that you just never know. Some picks will disappoint, while others will connect. Despite rebuilding, you can never rule out free agency or trades, and how those will change your plans. Who exactly ends up staying is a mystery, and sometimes it's not who you'd entirely expect. The team may disappoint when they look ready to step forward, and surprise in a year that they look stuck in neutral. You might go through a coach or three. You might not.
What we do know is, the Sabres committed to this thing. Yeah, they shoveled a lot of shit doing it, and don't get me wrong, I pray that we don't have to shovel half the shit they did. But they committed nonetheless and I'd love to be in the long-term position they're in.
First off, it took time. The Sabres were shit for a long while and hit embarrassing lows. I'm rooting for us to not take that long, but that's best-case scenario.
They received a series of very high picks, and as many fear, yes, some of them only turned out to be ok. Rasmus Ristolainen turned out to just be good instead of being The Guy. But after a few kicks at the can, the Sabres got their core. They got Dahlin so Ristolainen doesn't have to be The Guy, he can just be good, and that's fine. We're seeing a similar narrative developing with Chytil. They got their center to build around for the next bajillion years, and in a more complimentary role, Sam Reinhart is having his best season.
Good players like Evander Kane and Ryan O'Reilly came and went, with the team ultimately deciding that they weren't part of the final vision. Other vets like Kyle Okposo and Jason Pominville are still around. What seems to have finally ended the rebuild was not a draft pick, but a trade, with the Jeff Skinner deal being a win the likes of which nobody foresaw.
The point I'm making here is that you just never know. Some picks will disappoint, while others will connect. Despite rebuilding, you can never rule out free agency or trades, and how those will change your plans. Who exactly ends up staying is a mystery, and sometimes it's not who you'd entirely expect. The team may disappoint when they look ready to step forward, and surprise in a year that they look stuck in neutral. You might go through a coach or three. You might not.
What we do know is, the Sabres committed to this thing. Yeah, they shoveled a lot of shit doing it, and don't get me wrong, I pray that we don't have to shovel half the shit they did. But they committed nonetheless and I'd love to be in the long-term position they're in.
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Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Another example of "you never know" is the Flames rebuild. This is a team that really looks poised for a Cup run after being irrelevant for a long time.
They got Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, and Sam Bennett with top 6 picks, which is quite a haul. Ironically, the highest of those picks -Bennett- ends up being just another guy. Meanwhile, a 104th overall pick is the crown jewel of the franchise. Go figure.
That may happen to us. We might have a top 5 pick that just ends up being a guy in the NHL, while a 5th rounder ends up winning a Hart Trophy for us. That said, you still play the odds, and I think the Flames are happy they got both picks.
And again, with Calgary, a trade (Lindholm) took them to the next level.
Knowing the Rangers, I don't expect them to make a nest and sit on the egg. I expect two or three more drafts, at which point (unless those drafts totally failed) the Rangers will probably start identifying what else they need, and making moves for those components.
But in the case of Buffalo and Calgary, the engine of the car came from the draft. That's where we wanna be.
They got Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, and Sam Bennett with top 6 picks, which is quite a haul. Ironically, the highest of those picks -Bennett- ends up being just another guy. Meanwhile, a 104th overall pick is the crown jewel of the franchise. Go figure.
That may happen to us. We might have a top 5 pick that just ends up being a guy in the NHL, while a 5th rounder ends up winning a Hart Trophy for us. That said, you still play the odds, and I think the Flames are happy they got both picks.
And again, with Calgary, a trade (Lindholm) took them to the next level.
Knowing the Rangers, I don't expect them to make a nest and sit on the egg. I expect two or three more drafts, at which point (unless those drafts totally failed) the Rangers will probably start identifying what else they need, and making moves for those components.
But in the case of Buffalo and Calgary, the engine of the car came from the draft. That's where we wanna be.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
They have Big Save Dave
I think Shestyorkin is an amazing prospect but I'm almost rooting for him to just be solid instead of excellent. One, because I don't wanna have to pay him, and two, I don't want this FO using him as a crutch like they used Lundqvist as a crutch.
Give me a good goalie, not an elite one.
Shesty will almost surely be at least good, so that's a positive.
Amazing Kreiderman
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They have Big Save Dave
I think Shestyorkin is an amazing prospect but I'm almost rooting for him to just be solid instead of excellent. One, because I don't wanna have to pay him, and two, I don't want this FO using him as a crutch like they used Lundqvist as a crutch.
Give me a good goalie, not an elite one.
Shesty will almost surely be at least good, so that's a positive.
I've been advocating for that for years. An elite goalie cripples the team, because they will be paid like elite centers despite not having the same impact. Someone compared goalies to punters in football. While that's not the best comparison, I can see where that guy was coming from.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
I think relievers in baseball is a good comparison.
Relievers are important and everybody wants good ones, but they're still a clear step behind the other two positions in terms of pay and statistical impact.
To win the World Series, you don't need dominant closer. You need a solid closer who's not gonna have a meltdown. Just like goalies with the Cup.
And like goalies with the Cup, if the jewel of your franchise is a relief pitcher, you're not winning shit.
(I mean, granted, Mariano Rivera was probably pound-for-pound the best player on the Yankees, but they had tons of other talent, and relievers command a salary commensurate to their impact, whereas goalies don't.)
Amazing Kreiderman
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Baseball isn't my game. I don't know enough to even understand what a reliever is. Point is, a goalie's impact is not as significant as people make it out to be. If you look at positions, and the difference between elite and good, I would say it looks like this:
Elite center >>>>>>>>>>> good center
Elite 1st pair D >>>>>>>> good 1st pair D
Elite goaltender >>> good goaltender
In my opinion, it just isn't worth it to pay 12% of your cap to a goalie because he's better. Give me a tier 2 goalie for 4.5m a year and invest in the team in front of him. Nevesis is always saying how shots are unstoppable, even for Lundqvist. If that's the case, it just proves that an elite goalie isn't worth the money, and that it's better to invest in the team in front of him to take away those shots instead
Elite center >>>>>>>>>>> good center
Elite 1st pair D >>>>>>>> good 1st pair D
Elite goaltender >>> good goaltender
In my opinion, it just isn't worth it to pay 12% of your cap to a goalie because he's better. Give me a tier 2 goalie for 4.5m a year and invest in the team in front of him. Nevesis is always saying how shots are unstoppable, even for Lundqvist. If that's the case, it just proves that an elite goalie isn't worth the money, and that it's better to invest in the team in front of him to take away those shots instead
pld459666
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pld459666
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I've bitched and complained about Hanks contract since the day he signed it.
Great stuff Machine. I agree all the way.
Three things.
1. I have seen many comments at this place that if we do X or Z or whatever the rebuild would be over.
Lets say Gorts sells off some vets, lucks out and get to draft Jack Hughes, manage to dump 2/3 of the defenders, and sign Erik Karlsson and Artemi Panarin as UFAs. Is anyone so naive that they think this would mean that the rebuild would be over?
I think there is a great risk that even if the above happened, we would still get a top pick in 2020. It takes time to build a team in the NHL. You don't build a team in this league by signing a few big UFAs. If we get Hughes I would definitely be in favor of getting Karlsson, but that would be to take pressure of Hughes and to get someone that would open up things for him from the get go. Pittsburgh had Mario and Gonchar and Rechhi and many other for Crosby his rookie season, Pittsburgh got like 60 pts that season, but it certainly helped Crosby.
2. If we got like Jack Hughes and he turned out to become an elite top 2-3 center and top 10 scorer, I would definitely bet on Lias and Chytil and Kravtsov to become really good and do really well. Players lifts each other.
3. Another thing, its important to remember when looking at 'successful' rebuilds that you like get a honeymoon of a year or two after starting to do well, like wow the Sabres/TML are winning what an euphoria, but then comes the pressure in a real hurry. Isn't it time to win more than one PO round now? Two? Do X really have it to win in this league?
How many time haven't we heard the all-clear sound from one of these teams only to see them collapse again?
Three things.
1. I have seen many comments at this place that if we do X or Z or whatever the rebuild would be over.
Lets say Gorts sells off some vets, lucks out and get to draft Jack Hughes, manage to dump 2/3 of the defenders, and sign Erik Karlsson and Artemi Panarin as UFAs. Is anyone so naive that they think this would mean that the rebuild would be over?
I think there is a great risk that even if the above happened, we would still get a top pick in 2020. It takes time to build a team in the NHL. You don't build a team in this league by signing a few big UFAs. If we get Hughes I would definitely be in favor of getting Karlsson, but that would be to take pressure of Hughes and to get someone that would open up things for him from the get go. Pittsburgh had Mario and Gonchar and Rechhi and many other for Crosby his rookie season, Pittsburgh got like 60 pts that season, but it certainly helped Crosby.
2. If we got like Jack Hughes and he turned out to become an elite top 2-3 center and top 10 scorer, I would definitely bet on Lias and Chytil and Kravtsov to become really good and do really well. Players lifts each other.
3. Another thing, its important to remember when looking at 'successful' rebuilds that you like get a honeymoon of a year or two after starting to do well, like wow the Sabres/TML are winning what an euphoria, but then comes the pressure in a real hurry. Isn't it time to win more than one PO round now? Two? Do X really have it to win in this league?
How many time haven't we heard the all-clear sound from one of these teams only to see them collapse again?
Amazing Kreiderman
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SA16
Sixstring
Amazing Kreiderman
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I Eat Crow
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I think the Calgary model of building a competitive team is the best we can hope for. Draft well with top 10, but without any top 3 picks. Get lucky with an off the radar mid rounder becoming a franchise player. But that's never a given.
It also helps that Trevling took Waddell to the f***ing cleaners on their draft day trade. Calgary got a stud two way defenseman and a point per game forward for Hamilton (who's quickly becoming overrated in my book), a bottom six forward, and a prospect that wasn't going to sign with Calgary and probably won't sign with Carolina either.
Would you guys have dealt Skjei, Vesey, Lundkvist, and another small piece (adjusted for value) for Hanafin and Lindholm? I sure would have, even before Lindholm's break out.
I was calling for a Hayes/Hanafin swap last summer. Hanafin really was available. I can't believe Waddell dealt him and didn't get a top 6 forward back. That trade was probably the last straw for the owner and he made those "I'm not drafting a defenseman in the 1st round ever again" comments. What a shit show down there. 10 years and no playoffs. There would be anarchy on this board if that happened here.
It also helps that Trevling took Waddell to the f***ing cleaners on their draft day trade. Calgary got a stud two way defenseman and a point per game forward for Hamilton (who's quickly becoming overrated in my book), a bottom six forward, and a prospect that wasn't going to sign with Calgary and probably won't sign with Carolina either.
Would you guys have dealt Skjei, Vesey, Lundkvist, and another small piece (adjusted for value) for Hanafin and Lindholm? I sure would have, even before Lindholm's break out.
I was calling for a Hayes/Hanafin swap last summer. Hanafin really was available. I can't believe Waddell dealt him and didn't get a top 6 forward back. That trade was probably the last straw for the owner and he made those "I'm not drafting a defenseman in the 1st round ever again" comments. What a shit show down there. 10 years and no playoffs. There would be anarchy on this board if that happened here.
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