Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX (WTF are we going to do this Off-Season edition)

[Machinehead]

One of my biggest gripes with Drury at the moment is getting rid of some of the problems and then just replacing them with cheaper versions of the same player. That's a super red flag for me. It tells me that his evaluation of the problem is that he just hasn't had enough cap space and needs to clear some.

1) That's a really dangerous evaluation whereby we're probably not frying big enough fish.

2) What are you gonna do with cap space? Usually the Rangers take the cap they accrue and either bring in somebody else's backwash, or overpay for vibes. Or both. If you wanna talk about culture change, that might be the #1 thing they need to stop doing.

 

[McRanger92]

I get this, and I mostly agree, but if we're talking about past series losses as red flags, I'm already seeing plenty of stuff from Drury that I think we're gonna look back on as red flags.

They will eventually fire him too. I think the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don’t. Do you think Dolan is going to hire anyone other than Holland, Chiarelli or Messier as a replacement? I don’t.

If they were going to fire Drury now they should replace him with Valliquette. I’m not holding my breath.

 

[NYR Viper]

Can confirm. All trade clauses will always travel.

thank you

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The other thing is, players of this generation are just different. I've told this story before but it bares repeating. When Patrik Laine played for Winnipeg, the team was concerned he was spending way too much time playing video games. But they couldn't speak to him about it directly, they had to go through the agent. I think its absolutely absurd but this is the world these GMs are living in. Look at how Kakko spoke out about his perceived treatment. It never used to be like this in the league. Whether that's good or bad, that's for you to decide. Personally, I don't agree with it but if you want the job of GM, you have to adapt and learn how to deal with these players. Maybe this is an extreme example and not totally indicative of the culture, but you can't run a team 'my way or the highway anymore,' regardless of how soft or entitled you think players are. Hell, we can't say half the stuff we used to say in the office 10, 15 years ago anymore.

 

[Fitzy]

One of my biggest gripes with Drury at the moment is getting rid of some of the problems and then just replacing them with cheaper versions of the same player. That's a super red flag for me. It tells me that his evaluation of the problem is that he just hasn't had enough cap space and needs to clear some.

1) That's a really dangerous evaluation whereby we're probably not frying big enough fish.

2) What are you gonna do with cap space? Usually the Rangers take the cap they accrue and either bring in somebody else's backwash, or overpay for vibes. Or both. If you wanna talk about culture change, that might be the #1 thing they need to stop doing.

That can work, provided that the cap is then leveraged for improvements in other areas.

Replacing Goodrow with Carrick and Trouba with Borgen sees NYR up both a little in quality and also 10 million in cap space.

But you're right- bidding wars for UFAs are going to be insane and most of the good ones will be retained. People are going to be out spending 7-8% of their team cap million on #4 dmen and 2nd line forwards just like the last time the cap went up so fast in 2011.

It's why I'm not as actively anti JT Miller trade as you. People are going to be willing to trade for guys paid at full market value. That's gonna continue. NYR need to think about who they can get for less cost in trades to bolster the top 6 and top 4.

Sometimes a change of scenery does wonders. Kreider/Mika/Panarin trades don't all need to be fully deconstrutive. You can look for guys who are well paid but affordable to trade for- Danault as a 3C, Hanifin as a top 4 LD- there are guys out there.

 

[NYR Viper]

One of my biggest gripes with Drury at the moment is getting rid of some of the problems and then just replacing them with cheaper versions of the same player. That's a super red flag for me. It tells me that his evaluation of the problem is that he just hasn't had enough cap space and needs to clear some.

1) That's a really dangerous evaluation whereby we're probably not frying big enough fish.

2) What are you gonna do with cap space? Usually the Rangers take the cap they accrue and either bring in somebody else's backwash, or overpay for vibes. Or both. If you wanna talk about culture change, that might be the #1 thing they need to stop doing.

This I somewhat agree with. I'm not in love with the Soucy trade, although for as 'messy' as he appeared in his short stint in NY, his underlying numbers looked very positive so the jury is out there. I feel like we have been saying this for years continuously as well but I do believe that, at next years deadline should the team still be scuffling along, they could easily get a 3rd back for him in what is a deeper draft.

I am keeping an open mind here mainly because I think the team may be looking at larger changes (for example Miller trade?) that may necessitate a player like Soucy playing and Drury may be hesitant to hand out a longer term UFA contract based on what they are projecting for in the future.

 

[Machinehead]

They will eventually fire him too. I think the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don’t. Do you think Dolan is going to hire anyone other than Holland, Chiarelli or Messier as a replacement? I don’t.

If they were going to fire Drury now they should replace him with Valliquette. I’m not holding my breath.

You're right about Dolan.

I would like Valiquette to be involved but not as the head guy. I think he would get too up his own ass with his analytics as an end rather than a means. And I say that as an analytics guy. They would be chucking it across the royal road for the sake of it instead of doing the actual process to open up those chances.

But again, with buffers, I would very much like him to be involved. He has great insights and is able to marry analytics with tone and playstyle.

I just think he gets hyper-focused on "but this was a royal road chance!" when a lot of times there's more to it than that.

I think we would be really good paired with a GM who excels at the granular individual stuff. The type of guy who sniffs out very specific talents and can fit them together. The Rangers are bad at this. They just kind of bin everyone into "skill guy" or "grit guy," and they don't look at specifics like puck-carrying, zone entries, skating, defensive stick work, etc. etc.

One example I always bring up is that we ostensibly have a lot of skill but all of our skill players are really bad at specifically carrying the puck -- Zibanejad, Kreider, Trocheck, Lafreniere, even Fox. We need more attention to detail in the front office.

 

[Tawnos]

This I somewhat agree with. I'm not in love with the Soucy trade, although for as 'messy' as he appeared in his short stint in NY, his underlying numbers looked very positive so the jury is out there. I feel like we have been saying this for years continuously as well but I do believe that, at next years deadline should the team still be scuffling along, they could easily get a 3rd back for him in what is a deeper draft.

I am keeping an open mind here mainly because I think the team may be looking at larger changes (for example Miller trade?) that may necessitate a player like Soucy playing and Drury may be hesitant to hand out a longer term UFA contract based on what they are projecting for in the future.

I'm willing to reserve judgment on the D acquired this season until I see them playing for a coach/asst coach who doesn't require them to memorize 600 set breakout schemes.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

This is giving Drury a ridiculous pass. He's the GM of the team with no one over him. His job is to figure it out and put the team in the best place to succeed, ideally beyond the next 6 months.

And Zibanejad at 5.5 AAV for another year was probably one of the most valuable assets in the league in the eyes of many GMs. People talk about Eichel but they probably could’ve had Tage Thompson too. Mika could’ve been the main piece for anyone they wanted

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I'm willing to reserve judgment on the D acquired this season until I see them playing for a coach/asst coach who doesn't require them to memorize 600 set breakout schemes.

How about a coach that tells the forwards not to leave the zone while the defender still has the puck behind their net?

 

[McRanger92]

Coaches and GMs are mostly window dressing in this league. Meaningless if you don’t have players with their heads screwed on straight. And if we’re being honest Drury has missed the playoffs once in his GM tenure. Hardly grounds for termination. Call me a “bootlicker” or whatever line gets likes but he’s seen more success in the top job than about 90% of the leagues managers. It’s fair to have questions about his moves, i have many, but you have to take the emotions out of it. The players clearly couldn’t.

 

[kovazub94]

The captain hindsight on Guentzel is hilarious. I can guarantee with out a shadow of a doubt that this place would have gone up in flames if they had moved Kakko for what would have eventually been a rental player (they wouldn't have been able to afford Guentzel.) The rumor thread probably still exists, almost everyone to a letter f***ing hated that idea and was relieved when it didn't go down.

JG would have been a poor fit here (1000000% would have been put on a line with Kreider and Zibanejad and he wouldn't have broken onto PP 1) and wouldn't have changed the outcome of the season at all. Sweeping the first 2 rounds would have been fun but Guentzel or no Guentzel, they weren't getting by Florida with the likes of Trouba and Lindgren in the top 4.

Any anger surrounding Kakko shouldn't be around who they didn't move him for or who they eventually did move him for, it should be around the fact that they botched his development to appease Panarin and chase the purple dragon of a playoff spot because the team was "ahead of schedule."

Shut up, bootlicker

Seriously I completely agree with you that comparing rental for Kakko (plus a 1st I'm sure) vs. getting a pick and Borgen who is now signed to contribute for 5 years at hugely beneficial 4.1 AAV is asinine unless your starting premise was that Guentzel was the missing piece to the Stanley Cup.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm willing to reserve judgment on the D acquired this season until I see them playing for a coach/asst coach who doesn't require them to memorize 600 set breakout schemes.

Yeah, that was kinda wild to me. You should have a handful that work and practice them until they can do it blindfolded.

 

[McRanger92]

You're right about Dolan.

I would like Valiquette to be involved but not as the head guy. I think he would get too up his own ass with his analytics as an end rather than a means. And I say that as an analytics guy. They would be chucking it across the royal road for the sake of it instead of doing the actual process to open up those chances.

But again, with buffers, I would very much like him to be involved. He has great insights and is able to marry analytics with tone and playstyle.

I just think he gets hyper-focused on "but this was a royal road chance!" when a lot of times there's more to it than that.

I think we would be really good paired with a GM who excels at the granular individual stuff. The type of guy who sniffs out very specific talents and can fit them together. The Rangers are bad at this. They just kind of bin everyone into "skill guy" or "grit guy," and they don't look at specifics like puck-carrying, zone entries, skating, defensive stick work, etc. etc.

One example I always bring up is that we ostensibly have a lot of skill but all of our skill players are really bad at specifically carrying the puck -- Zibanejad, Kreider, Trocheck, Lafreniere, even Fox. We need more attention to detail in the front office.

I’d prefer if Drury was only president instead of having both jobs. I think he’s done a good job of identifying problems but been very hit or miss with addressing them. And culturally problems within the organization are more Dolan than anyone. He’s the common denominator. I’d love for him to sell and go focus on the Sphere. Maybe his kids will do better but historically that hasn’t been the case.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Shut up, bootlicker

Seriously I completely agree with you that comparing rental for Kakko (plus a 1st I'm sure) vs. getting a pick and Borgen who is now signed to contribute for 5 years at hugely beneficial 4.1 AAV is asinine unless your starting premise was that Guentzel was the missing piece to the Stanley Cup.

Or just use the money you saved on Goodrow, don't resign Lindgren and keep Guentzel? Sign another D on the cheap in the offseason or don't botch the Trouba deal. Well run teams figure out ways to get stuff done. And the first? They threw that away for Miller anyway.

 

[zlev]

You're right about Dolan.

I would like Valiquette to be involved but not as the head guy. I think he would get too up his own ass with his analytics as an end rather than a means. And I say that as an analytics guy. They would be chucking it across the royal road for the sake of it instead of doing the actual process to open up those chances.

But again, with buffers, I would very much like him to be involved. He has great insights and is able to marry analytics with tone and playstyle.

I just think he gets hyper-focused on "but this was a royal road chance!" when a lot of times there's more to it than that.

I think we would be really good paired with a GM who excels at the granular individual stuff. The type of guy who sniffs out very specific talents and can fit them together. The Rangers are bad at this. They just kind of bin everyone into "skill guy" or "grit guy," and they don't look at specifics like puck-carrying, zone entries, skating, defensive stick work, etc. etc.

One example I always bring up is that we ostensibly have a lot of skill but all of our skill players are really bad at specifically carrying the puck -- Zibanejad, Kreider, Trocheck, Lafreniere, even Fox. We need more attention to detail in the front office.

i still think back to when Andrew Copp got his leg destroyed in that game where he had the hat trick against the Islanders. he was such a perfect fit for this team because he could carry the puck all over the place. he really hasn't been the same since so it was probably wise not to re-sign him, but i'd rather have the pre-leg injury Copp over Trocheck all day every day.

 

[kovazub94]

Ok, but like, here's the thing: people keep propping this up as getting rid of a potential problem contract in Chytil, meanwhile we added $40m with a no movement clause.

What do you think would be an alternative return to ship Chytil out if Drury didn't take advantage of Vancouver situation between JTM and EP?

 

[SA16]

i still think back to when Andrew Copp got his leg destroyed in that game where he had the hat trick against the Islanders. he was such a perfect fit for this team because he could carry the puck all over the place. he really hasn't been the same since so it was probably wise not to re-sign him, but i'd rather have the pre-leg injury Copp over Trocheck all day every day.

You would rather have pre-leg injury Copp - one full season over 40 points with 42 - that Trocheck who had 4 50 point seasons, including a 70 point season, before even joining the Rangers? For the exact same salary.

 

[zlev]

You would rather have pre-leg injury Copp - one full season over 40 points with 42 - that Trocheck who had 4 50 point seasons, including a 70 point season, before even joining the Rangers? For the exact same salary.

yeah that's what i said. Copp had 53 points in 21-22 btw. and 39 points in 55 games the year before.

 

[tiggles]

This is giving Drury a ridiculous pass. He's the GM of the team with no one over him. His job is to figure it out and put the team in the best place to succeed, ideally beyond the next 6 months.

The Avs just traded f***ing Mikko Rantanen rather than giving him an extension they weren't comfortable with, and yet somehow Drury's hands were tied with giving Zibanejad his abomination of a contract lol

 

[Machinehead]

What do you think would be an alternative return to ship Chytil out if Drury didn't take advantage of Vancouver situation between JTM and EP?

Ideally, something that would have reduced cap hit instead of adding it.

But it's a bit of a flawed premise. I don't think they were looking to ship out Chytil. They were looking to acquire JT Miller and Chytil happened to come up. Then he happened to have another injury.

If they weren't pursuing JT, I don't think they trade Chytil at all.

Maybe it ends up being a happy accident, but I wouldn't really credit Drury with getting ahead of that situation.

 

[SA16]

The Avs just traded f***ing Mikko Rantanen rather than giving him an extension they weren't comfortable with, and yet somehow Drury's hands were tied with giving Zibanejad his abomination of a contract lol

The Avs also have some stupid rule of "We won't pay anyone more than MacKinnon" which totally ignores cap increases and tries to strongarm players into taking lower deals. Obviously, in that case it didn't work (and will be broken for Makar).

I don't think many teams contending teams would be looking to trade their 29 year old center coming off seasons of 75 in 57, 50 in 56, and 81 in 81.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

The Avs just traded f***ing Mikko Rantanen rather than giving him an extension they weren't comfortable with, and yet somehow Drury's hands were tied with giving Zibanejad his abomination of a contract lol

Mic drop

 

[kovazub94]

Or just use the money you saved on Goodrow, don't resign Lindgren and keep Guentzel? Sign another D on the cheap in the offseason or don't botch the Trouba deal. Well run teams figure out ways to get stuff done. And the first? They threw that away for Miller anyway.

Trouba trade that provided cap flexibility for 24-25 season ONLY as things stand right now didn't happen until the season was underway so after taking the roster spot replacements for Lindgren - it would still not be nearly enough to fit Guentzel long term.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Trouba trade that provided cap flexibility for 24-25 season ONLY as things stand right now didn't happen until the season was underway so after taking the roster spot replacements for Lindgren - it would still not be nearly enough to fit Guentzel long term.

Well, I wouldn't have resigned Igor to that contract and I wouldn't have brought in JT Miller. There's your money.