Roster Building Thread : Part XVIII ( TDL is March 7th)

[McRanger92]

Absolutely. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me.

I wish Kreider's play this season didn't put you in the position to have to defend him like you have. I respect that about you.

 

[Captain Monglobster]

If Brian Leetch can get traded so can Kreider. Its time to move on from these guys.

 

[Mike in Houston]

I wish Kreider's play this season didn't put you in the position to have to defend him like you have. I respect that about you.

Like I've said before. He's the last one. After he's gone I'm crapping on everyone.

 

[effen]

There's no comparison there.

The Rangers playing some of the worst regulars in the league every night is alarming.

Them playing Adam Fox in the role he's in (arguably, he doesn't play that much for a #1) is a massive problem?

Nothing about your post or mine was about Adam Fox being properly slotted?

 

[Fitzy]

All of this is as meaningless today as Messier was in his 40's. Nobody, that I'm seeing, is shitting on his Rangers career. This year, though? People are entitled to the opinion that the Rangers should move on while they can and get something back for him.

I think the folks defending Kreider believe he deserves more than one season, no matter how awful, bcause his tenure has earned it. Heard the same thing about Chris Phillips in Ottawa.

That may be true. Maybe he does deserve another season. But the reality is we all know Drury doesn't stand on ceremony for that kind of thing. If Kreider comes back next year and is a 35-40 goal guy again, that's awesome, but we need to find a way to get better than I think at his age he's one of the most intuitive options to go.

Maybe we should go all in on moving Panarin instead. I don't know. But I know that Panarin is worth a heck of a lot more wins in the standings than Kreider is right now, as frustrating as he can be.

 

[NickyFotiu]

McDonagh was a trade of a vet (Gomez) for a prospect. Zooks was undrafted. Brassard was another trade of a vet, whom we signed as a UFA (Gaborik). In every case, the team got younger.

Again, I'm not saying we should never add players via free agency or trade, but we have leaned too heavily on those options for pretty much the entirety of the last 50 years. It's insane to me that a team can announce a rebuild, and 7 years later, have a team that is almost entirely led by players who are 31 or older. That is a clear indication that the rebuild failed. And of course, it's going to fail when you only pay lip service to it, effectively ending the rebuild after 1 year.

We don't necessarily need to go full rebuild at this point. We do have some good pieces. But we need to get younger. We need to jettison guys like Mika, Kreider and Panarin. If that results in some short-term pain, so be it. I want to win a cup. No, we don't have to win a cup every year. That's the kind of thinking that keeps us from winning. We have to build toward a cup. We have to have a multi-year plan for achieving it, rather than a reactionary approach to team building.

I said it a thousand times when Sather was running the team, and it's still true today. If your plan is for only one year, then you don't have a plan.

I do not see this team planning for 1 year. If we were we would not have been signing guys in their 20's to long contracts. I'm all in favor of getting younger. You can get younger through the draft, trades and FA. If you only depend on the draft while other teams do all 3 you will usually fail imo. Florida won the cup. Were all their players brought only through the draft? I understand your reasoning and I agree with it to a degree but it can't be an all or nothing. If we have a way to bring in legit talent it does not matter if they were drafted by us or not. We drafted Gabe, Oth, Berard, Laf, Chytil, KK, etc. If McDavid becomes available I drive them all to the airport. Ditto Maka, Nate, etc.

 

[Mike in Houston]

I think the folks defending Kreider believe he deserves more than one season, no matter how awful, bcause his tenure has earned it. Heard the same thing about Chris Phillips in Ottawa.

That may be true. Maybe he does deserve another season. But the reality is we all know Drury doesn't stand on ceremony for that kind of thing. If Kreider comes back next year and is a 35-40 goal guy again, that's awesome, but we need to find a way to get better than I think at his age he's one of the most intuitive options to go.

Maybe we should go all in on moving Panarin instead. I don't know. But I know that Panarin is worth a heck of a lot more wins in the standings than Kreider is right now, as frustrating as he can be.

I've made it well known what I would like to see with Chris as unreasonable as it may sound. I think there are many Rangers who could use and benefit from a long offseason, whether they return here or move on.

 

[GAGLine]

I think the folks defending Kreider believe he deserves more than one season, no matter how awful, bcause his tenure has earned it. Heard the same thing about Chris Phillips in Ottawa.

If it was just a down year, I'd be inclined to agree. But it seems to be more than that. Maybe I'm misreading the situation, but I'm seeing a lack of professionalism from him that I wouldn't have expected. I can appreciate a guy who gives his best but just doesn't have it anymore. I can't appreciate someone who doesn't give their best because they are upset at the organization, as Kreider seems to be. Yet at the same time, he doesn't want to leave, apparently. Maybe he was really hurt leading up to the deadline, but if that's the case, he shouldn't have played in the 4-nations. The whole thing just seems off with him.

He still has his speed. Did his hands completely abandon him over the summer? He had 39 goals and 75 points last year. He has 18 goals and 22 points this year. Yes, the whole team has taken a major step back, but that's a huge drop off. Again, if he's injured and it's affecting his play that much, he should sit out. The only thing I can conclude is that there are other factors affecting his play. And for that, I'm ready to move on. We had more than enough drama this year and Kreider is part of it. Get something for him while we can.

 

[Machinehead]

Nothing about your post or mine was about Adam Fox being properly slotted?

He is properly slotted. That wasn't the point. The point is, where's the fire?

Fox being on the Rangers, doing what he's doing for the Rangers, and the money he's making to do that, don't warrant alarmism.

If people suggested we move on from him, just on the basis of wanting to rebuild, that's one thing.

That's not what's happening. People are suggesting we get rid of him over and over and over again, with the same exact comments every day, because they don't like him. That's different from doing it with a bad player.

Hell, Panarin is a good player and @GoAwayPanarin manages to not be annoying about it. It comes up every so often, and there's nuance and a tangible solution that's offered even if I have disagreed with it in the past.

The people going off about Fox just don't like Fox and it's their entire personality. They have no interest in a tangible solution. They just don't like Fox.

You absolutely cannot compare that to "let's stop playing these #7's in our top 4."

 

[TGWL]

Igor is the only reason the team is passable. Idk how people can watch Panarin play and feel any enjoyment. he doesn't do anything a franchise player should. Does he play with pace? No. Does he play in the middle of the ice? No. does he turn the puck over constantly at the blueline? Yes! Does he adjust his game to raise the level of his teammates? No. Is he accountable with the media despite wearing an A? No. Does he show up when it matters most? No.

He has been a top 5 highest paid player in the league his entire Rangers tenure. He's a mercenary and plays like one. We will be much better off when he is gone. The way he plays has infected everyone he is on the ice with. I guarantee during his tenure Mika, Kreider, Fox, Lafreniere and Trocheck are the players on the ice with him the most. they all do the same shit.

I feel like there's different areas of this.

There's Panarin who you're seeing right now curl up and do nothing, and then the Panarin who created like 40+ high danger chances last season. Saying he hasn't been a franchise player for us is a little inaccurate and feels like a reaction on what you're seeing right now, and what Panarin lacked in the playoffs. If he wasn't a franchise player for us, then you can argue there's only 5 or so franchise players in the NHL, in which case it's hard to fault a player for not being a franchise player.

For the record, earlier I wasn't saying that the ship hasn't sailed with Panarin here. I'm simply saying, unless there's some offer too good to pass, I think how next season starts is more likely to determine Panarin being traded.

 

[TGWL]

Assuming you move
Mika / ck/ panarin this offseason.
We’re likely a top 10 pick next year.

We have perreault likely coming in at the end of the year.
We have a potential top 10’pick.

We also then have the assets from those 3 deals.

We would already have
a top 6 in miller
At least 2 top 6 wings in laf and cuylle, add perreault and you have 3/4 spots locked up
A top pair rhd / need a top pair lhd
The bottom 4 of our defense doesn’t look bad right now.

An all star goalie.

We need a 1c to slot miller down, a top 6 wing, and then that’s really it.

A top 10 pick fills one hole, and ufa might fill the other 2. And we’d have the cap space to do it.

Seriously this isn’t that difficult to see.

A one year bounce for a much cleaner reset.

You're banking on that top 10 pick filling a hole, when? Because unless you're getting one of the top players in the draft and adding them to the team immediately, nobody is going to step in and push Miller down to 2, and more likely won't make the team until Miller is close to being on his way out. And if we're talking Wing, you're not just looking at top 10 pick, you're looking at close to the top. The way this season is going, there's still a shot we finish with the 13th pick and give up next years 1st.

 

[will1066]

They're in a bind with Panarin. He's simultaneously the best offensive threat and the biggest culprit in terms of affecting the no-accountability culture. To be able to pot 30 goals while playing like crap overall is pretty miraculous. How do you replace those goals is a legit question asked by many. But as long as he gets a free pass to turn over the puck all over the ice, nothing will change.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We sped up the rebuild, almost like we didn't have one, but I'm not sure we would have been better off had we not made those trades and signings. In 2021, we drafted 16th. In order to really get a good player here we would have had to draft inside the top 9. It was a shorten schedule where we lost 5 out of our last 6 games. Some nice players in that top 9, but we would have probably gotten Kent Johnson and fans would be complaining about that. When an Adam Fox or Panarin comes a long, you have to take it.

In 2022, would fans rather have a Marco Kasper, Kevin Korchinski or Matthew Savoie, over the ECF run?

In 2023, there's quite a few players I'd rather have Gabe Perreault over.

Unless you're getting top 4-5 picks every year, rebuilding through the draft is hard and more about grabbing those couple of pieces that should be your core players, and if you're lucky, a franchise player. Well Kakko didn't work out here. Lafreniere refuses to skate. Chytil had awareness issues. Kravstov is so good he's bad. Lias Andersson couldn't see a wire. Otthmann has been a call-up plug. We didn't get the franchise player from the draft, and the core players didn't work out. I don't think the organization or the fanbase could take going from the letter to now with tanking, bad teams, where our future might look a little bit better through the next 5+ years.

I think this is completely missing the point.

"Building" through the draft doesn't require you to build a team strictly with your draft picks. No one really does that anymore. The last 2 winners brought in a ton (or basically all) of their help from outside of the organization.

Those 2022 assets may not really sound like difference makers, but guess what? If you have a surplus of prospects, you can use them to trade for guys who can help you immediately. Forget the top of the line guys who have been moved over the last few years, we could have really used a player like Mattias Ekholm.

Panarin's impact on the team/roster as a whole is the single biggest reason why they are where they are right now. What they needed at that time was what Panarin is right now - An older no longer "elite" player who you can overpay for 2-3 years to soak some of those tougher minutes/give the young guys someone who doesn't completely suck. Not someone who is going to take a bad team and make them okay.

The old FO never really gave the rebuild a chance to breathe and Drury hasn't really done anything to properly augment what he inherited. Gorton created a mess but Drury's hands aren't clean either, theres so much more he could have done but chose not to bc of vibes and grit or whatever (at least until it got so untenable that it had to happen) but thats besides the point.

It also doesn't help that Panarin has been a massive disappointment when they have gotten into the playoffs. Having hart quality seasons is great but it means less when your production is basically on par with the likes of Sam Bennett, Arturri Lekhonen and Ondrej Palat in the post season.

Hes 4th on our team in post season scoring since he's been here. If Trocheck had been here for the 2022 run he'd probably be 5th.

They did not have to sign him and there is a massive difference between getting Fox on an ELC and signing Panarin to what is still one of the richest contracts ever. One fit in with the plan and the other was a complete deviation from it that blew it up entirely.

 

[haohmaru]

I think the folks defending Kreider believe he deserves more than one season, no matter how awful, bcause his tenure has earned it. Heard the same thing about Chris Phillips in Ottawa.

That may be true. Maybe he does deserve another season. But the reality is we all know Drury doesn't stand on ceremony for that kind of thing. If Kreider comes back next year and is a 35-40 goal guy again, that's awesome, but we need to find a way to get better than I think at his age he's one of the most intuitive options to go.

Maybe we should go all in on moving Panarin instead. I don't know. But I know that Panarin is worth a heck of a lot more wins in the standings than Kreider is right now, as frustrating as he can be.

If he were having a shitty year (Kreider) and the Rangers were decent this year then a lot of this stuff would be falling through the cracks. It's magnified because a team that was supposed to be good sucks.

 

[TGWL]

I think this is completely missing the point.

"Building" through the draft doesn't require you to build a team strictly with your draft picks. No one really does that anymore. The last 2 winners brought in a ton (or basically all) of their help from outside of the organization.

Those 2022 assets may not really sound like difference makers, but guess what? If you have a surplus of prospects, you can use them to trade for guys who can help you immediately. Forget the top of the line guys who have been moved over the last few years, we could have really used a player like Mattias Ekholm.

Panarin's impact on the team/roster as a whole is the single biggest reason why they are where they are right now. What they needed at that time was what Panarin is right now - An older no longer "elite" player who you can overpay for 2-3 years to soak some of those tougher minutes/give the young guys someone who doesn't completely suck. Not someone who is going to take a bad team and make them okay.

The old FO never really gave the rebuild a chance to breathe and Drury hasn't really done anything to properly augment what he inherited. Gorton created a mess but Drury's hands aren't clean either, theres so much more he could have done but chose not to bc of vibes and grit or whatever (at least until it got so untenable that it had to happen) but thats besides the point.

It also doesn't help that Panarin has been a massive disappointment when they have gotten into the playoffs. Having hart quality seasons is great but it means less when your production is basically on par with the likes of Sam Bennett, Arturri Lekhonen and Ondrej Palat in the post season.

Hes 4th on our team in post season scoring since he's been here. If Trocheck had been here for the 2022 run he'd probably be 5th.

They did not have to sign him and there is a massive difference between getting Fox on an ELC and signing Panarin to what is still one of the richest contracts ever. One fit in with the plan and the other was a complete deviation from it that blew it up entirely.

We had a surplus of prospects. Having a surplus of other prospects doesn't mean anything would have changed. We could have used a lot of other players and different players. But now we're just saying "If we had this player, that player, and whoever else, we'd be better". There's nothing guaranteeing we have any of those players. I won't disagree that there was a mess created, but I disagree that signing Panarin was a mistake and would have put us in a better position now.

Panarin is also 4th in the league for points since we signed him. If we're just going to judge based on playoffs, I won't disagree that it has been disappointing, but it may have been just as disappointing with other players. Again, I think Panarin's time has run out here when you look at the current state of the team, but I think they got value out of signing Panarin and when a player like that comes banging at your door, you take it.

 

[Crease]

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm.

I realize now we misunderstood each other.

When I said Drury is shipping out the right guys, I mean he’s correctly identifying dead weight and dumping them. Where Drury has struggled most is bringing in the correct replacements.

 

[haohmaru]

They did not have to sign him and there is a massive difference between getting Fox on an ELC and signing Panarin to what is still one of the richest contracts ever. One fit in with the plan and the other was a complete deviation from it that blew it up entirely.

Trouba was the other piece of that plan deviation.

 

[bleedblue94]

So no real reply to why Fox has similar stats at five on five, not even fancy stats, just raw goals for and against, got it.

If you watched other teams and players you would be able to answer that yourself. For all the shit Igor takes around here he is the reason that gap isn't wider. Why don't you dig into stats and look at the separation of high danger chances for and against for when each of those three guys are on the ice. People here love to discredit igor, and he has not been as god like as in past years, but he sees by far the most high danger chances per 60 of any starter around the league. More of the bash Igor bc well Igor but dismiss Igor when his play helps prop up others on the team. Figure it out...

 

[Machinehead]

They're in a bind with Panarin. He's simultaneously the best offensive threat and the biggest culprit in terms of affecting the no-accountability culture. To be able to pot 30 goals while playing like crap overall is pretty miraculous. How do you replace those goals is a legit question asked by many. But as long as he gets a free pass to turn over the puck all over the ice, nothing will change.

How you replace those goals was a legit question two or three years ago when I thought maybe they had a prayer.

Now, I don't care. Pull the plug. We don't need 30 goals where we're going.

 

[bleedblue94]

Ok, so Fox is not as "flashy" on the ice but if he performs the same, who the f*** cares.

He doesn't though. Replied bout this in another post. Not doing it again

 

[Machinehead]

If you watched other teams and players you would be able to answer that yourself. For all the shit Igor takes around here he is the reason that gap isn't wider. Why don't you dig into stats and look at the separation of high danger chances for and against for when each of those three guys are on the ice. People here love to discredit igor, and he has not been as god like as in past years, but he sees by far the most high danger chances per 60 of any starter around the league. More of the bash Igor bc well Igor but dismiss Igor when his play helps prop up others on the team. Figure it out...

In terms of high-danger chances, nothing separates the three.

1) Makar - 56.43% xGF
2) Fox - 55.19% xGF
3) Hughes - 55.03% xGF

Let's look at raw high-danger chance differential:

1) Makar - +44
2) Fox - +31
3) Hughes - + 25

Fox comes out ahead of Hughes. And keep in mind, the f***in Avalanche are A LOT better than the Rangers. Objectively so in this category.

In terms of goaltending, Makar gets better goaltending!

1) Makar - .918 on-ice sv%
2) Fox - .908 on-ice sv%
3) Hughes - .903 on-ice sv%

In fact, Fox gets some of the worst goaltending on the Rangers, ranking 18th on the squad.

And I know, that's because he sucks, and Igor is facing a bunch of chances, oh no! Except that there isn't a full-time Ranger remaining on the roster who gives up fewer high-danger shot attempts than Fox.

And even if you wanna follow that logic to its fruition, Hughes has to be worse defensively because his numbers are worse in every category.

Don't argue analytics. You're woefully out of your depth. Stick to your game.

 

[bhamill]

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm.

Neither could I!

 

[Machinehead]

Also, the Makar comparison is such a f***in waste of time and braincells, both of which we don't have enough of.

Do you think the Tampa board discusses how Point compares to McDavid? Do you think the Florida board discusses how Barkov compares to MacKinnon?

Hell, not even teams that have won. Do you think they compare Jack to McDavid across the river? Do Vancouver fans watch Quinn and say "but have you seen Cale Makar?"

Toronto fans have all the f***in baggage in the world to deal with, and I bet you they don't sit around and bellyache about the guys better than Auston Matthews.

 

[bhamill]

If it’s not sarcasm it dropped the boards relative IQ into the negatives.

the only player on that list I’d want back is Kakko, but Borgen has looked solid away from Seattle, and I don’t think Kakko ever turns into the player he is in Seattle here.

The others were literally removing dead weight.
This team has more dead weight that can be removed in the off season.

Even Kakko. 23pts in 36 games for Seattle, getting an average of about 30% more ice time, doesn't make me think that wasn't a win for us so far. I mean he has gone from 2.1 pts/60min with us to 2.16 with Seattle... I'm certainly not anti Kakko, but he hasn't taken a step with Seattle, he's just playing more.

 

[Leonardo87]

I feel this team will learn more by missing the playoffs than making it. Also feel more drastic and needed moves will be made if they miss. I know that's an unpopular opinion, since don't like to root for them to lose.

It really sucks that they are going out like this with Sam Rosen's last season. That man deserves so much more.