Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVII What will Santa Gorton bring us?
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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The one thing we have over them is the secondary pieces.
Ours are here and already pretty good. Outside of Virtanen, theirs kind of suck.
If you combined the 2 systems you'd have a super charged version of the dynasty black hawks.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
That’s the why, but my point is that Zibanejad is doing just as well with that role as Hayes did.
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
with kravtsov and panarin on the edge
plus 93 13 and 21 down the gut
and a "rebuilt" defense (smith and mcquaid gone) and a hank like this years hank
i continue to believe this roster would be very very good and still very young.
and the rebuild would be close.
we aren't at a full tear down place.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
I agree that we aren't at a full tear down place, and the team isn't bad enough to pick as high as they would need to under that direction.
But I'm not sure I like 93, 13, and 21 down the gut.
Not only do cup winners generally have an elite center, the last team to win one without a Hall of Fame center was a long time ago. We need to do better there, or we're heading right back where we were (good but not good enough).
I would bet a lot of money on Hayes getting no less than 6.8m as a UFA.
Like Paul Statsny just got 6.5m per. There are never any UFAs available. Young 6’5 center.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
If the Rangers move on from Hayes, it isn't because he's not very good. It's because he's not a next-level player.
You're either elite, or you're depth. The Rangers don't seem willing to spend on players in between anymore.
You're either elite, or you're depth. The Rangers don't seem willing to spend on players in between anymore.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
This is exactly my feeling. I also think it’s the right thing at this stage of it all.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
I'm interested to see what they do with Kreider. For all intents and purposes, Kreider is in between elite and depth. But he's like, really, really, really good.
A couple of things to take into account would be of course the AAV, and the fact that you might be able to get away with it at wing.
The issue with Hayes is that you would be committing $11M+ to a 1 and 2 center who should really be your 2 and 3. If we find a legit 1C and have to sign him in three years, Hayes complicates matters. Meanwhile, there's a lot more wingers in your lineup and it would take FOUR players to push Kreider out of a spot where he's worth the money.
A couple of things to take into account would be of course the AAV, and the fact that you might be able to get away with it at wing.
The issue with Hayes is that you would be committing $11M+ to a 1 and 2 center who should really be your 2 and 3. If we find a legit 1C and have to sign him in three years, Hayes complicates matters. Meanwhile, there's a lot more wingers in your lineup and it would take FOUR players to push Kreider out of a spot where he's worth the money.
You are right, but to some extent, that is also because you become an elite center if you win a Cup...
Nobody claimed that Patrice Bergeron was an elite center before he won, everyone said the opposite, ie BB can’t be seen as a legit contender with Bergeron/Krejci 1-2 punch.. If we win a cup against LAK, does Derek Stepan go legend over night? Like you know, to some extent it’s a huge boost for his reputation right.
My point is just, you actually don’t need a top 5 talent at center to win a Cup. Bergeron, Toews, and co. Sure Kopitar is really good, but so was the players around him. Those guys have won 5 of the recent cups. Creating a circle around them won’t result in the conclusion that you need a generational type center to win.
Because that was definitely the case before 05’, where NJs trap wins more were the exception that confirmed the rule...
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Granted, Hayes could be moved to wing, but now that's Kreider, Chytil, Kravtsov, and Hayes.
Are you committing to that being your top 6 for the next 6 years?
Then there's a scenario where it comes down to Hayes OR Kreider. The choice there is clearly Kreider.
Are you committing to that being your top 6 for the next 6 years?
Then there's a scenario where it comes down to Hayes OR Kreider. The choice there is clearly Kreider.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Kreider is at least elite at some things. He’s also a top-25 (maybe top-20) player at his position, which is worth holding on to.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
I think you're right about the perception, but Bergeron should have always been considered a top 10 center, because in retrospect, he always was.
Stepan never was.
Theres also the possibility that Kravstov or Chytil move into the middle.
I don't think the path to stay here exists for Hayes either way.
kovazub94
Enigmatic
- Aug 5, 2010
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No we disagree. We talked about Crosby/Malkin, Kuznetsov/Backstrom, Tavares/Matthews etc.
Zibanejad/Hayes or Hayes-like won’t measure up and should be upgraded at Hayes level. This is a goal.
Boston traded Blake Wheeler at the age of 25 when he has 27 pts in 54 games, for a bunch of crap more or less.
7 years later BW is well over a PPG player and have been that the last 4 years. Only getting better. Does he have 2-3 years left? 3-4? Something like that.
You must know what you are doing as a NHL GM. And from my POV it got a lot harder with the shelf life of a NHLer getting shorter, players starting to break down earlier. Everyone aren’t, and won’t. Some will still peak when they are 32 and play at top level until they are 35, while some will head down fast at 28.
The science and at least general knowledge of factors deciding how long a player can play at the top level is pretty bare. But there certainly is a HUGE difference between the value of a player if he has 2-3 peak years left or 8-10...
Gorton must make the right call on these things.
7 years later BW is well over a PPG player and have been that the last 4 years. Only getting better. Does he have 2-3 years left? 3-4? Something like that.
You must know what you are doing as a NHL GM. And from my POV it got a lot harder with the shelf life of a NHLer getting shorter, players starting to break down earlier. Everyone aren’t, and won’t. Some will still peak when they are 32 and play at top level until they are 35, while some will head down fast at 28.
The science and at least general knowledge of factors deciding how long a player can play at the top level is pretty bare. But there certainly is a HUGE difference between the value of a player if he has 2-3 peak years left or 8-10...
Gorton must make the right call on these things.
point taken, but Wheeler and Hayes are two different styles of player. Wheeler IMO was exhibiting signs in his play of a potentially greater upside. I didnt think it'd be as good as he is now. Hayes OTOH is finding some new offense, but a lot of his development has been defensively and as a play generator. Sure, he could have a higher upside that what he is doing now. I don't see him ever being a PPG player though.
You are of course right on Bergeron, he is a really good center, but then again, I wouldn’t say that it’s super black and white on whose better, ROR or Bergeron. If you nit pick that top 10 could be argued to be top 10–15, and like in the end you start to get into that territory where it’s possible to say like ‘oh you need good players to win a Cup?’ Huh, who could have guessed. But both Bergeron/Toews are of course tremendously clutch, no denying that.
I think it’s important to note though that you must not have that generational guy to win. Looking at before 05’, the winners were Forsberg/Sakic, Yzerman/Federov, one year Modano/Joe N and so forth, besides the year NJ didn’t trap fest win.
That was more like two guys being top 3-5, now it does seem possible to win with the top guy being around 10-15.
Yeah and like Wheeler from my POV has just really really found a great spot for him and his development in Winnipeg. Hayes has unique abilities, but I can’t seen him alone ever driving things. But of course, if he ends up with absolutely killer linemates somewhere and can tag along those guys and get some synergies things could look better.
Yeah and like Wheeler from my POV has just really really found a great spot for him and his development in Winnipeg. Hayes has unique abilities, but I can’t seen him alone ever driving things. But of course, if he ends up with absolutely killer linemates somewhere and can tag along those guys and get some synergies things could look better.
DutchShamrock
Registered User
Kevin Hayes boils down what his next contract will be. Once you determine he is not worth the ask, you move on to retrieving assets instead of letting him walk. And letting him walk is better than signing him for 6 or 7 years at the salary he wants. That cap will be more valuable in a few years than the 45 points he brings.
Maybe some people don't want to hear it because we don't often have decent players, but that is the reality in a cap league. You cannot overpay average talent. It leaves you on the sidelines when elite players are available.
At the end of the day, Hayes is still a sub 50 point player that has had his 2 best seasons going into free agency. There are replacements HERE. I will take literally any return instead of signing his next contract. I know that's an unpopular opinion but the team that signs Hayes will regret the deal before its half over.
Maybe some people don't want to hear it because we don't often have decent players, but that is the reality in a cap league. You cannot overpay average talent. It leaves you on the sidelines when elite players are available.
At the end of the day, Hayes is still a sub 50 point player that has had his 2 best seasons going into free agency. There are replacements HERE. I will take literally any return instead of signing his next contract. I know that's an unpopular opinion but the team that signs Hayes will regret the deal before its half over.
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