Speculation: Roster Building thread - Part XVII - (TDL is March 7th)

[bernmeister]

Define 'concerned"? I'm concerned with the entire team's drop off in play from last year. Am i concerned that Fox is somehow now damaged goods because he is having a slightly off year? No. He's still on pace to have 65-70 points and that's with regression from his 12% shooting percentage last year.

Now if you're asking me I think Fox has been infected (like Lafreniere) by the older core vets and the "compete when I fee like it" mentality they've all had this year, then yes that is concerning. I think he is a whiner and I think he's been dogging it this year. I haven't thought he's looked nearly as bad as everyone else apparently does in the Four Nations, because he is the only guy who seems willing to actually defend his position.

You're a great poster and I respect you, but you're like a dog with a bone with this Fox stuff. Like you have an ax to grind. And some random Rangers fan twitter accounts and Dom L saying Fox is bad isnt convincing me or anyone else. Sorry.

Not sure anyone is saying that Fox is having a good season.

But I also don't believe you trade a Fox level player due to one bad season while still in the prime of his career as he just turned 27.

There is not one player on the team, in the pipeline or available in a trade tjat can give us offensively what Fox can and does.

Whats the point as we would then be scrambling to find his replacement thus nullifying the trade anyway.

to all of the above, you are forgetting...
1. The issue is not immediate win now
the ? is whether or not what Fox brings back is a net profit that helps us, how does it help, over what timetable?
But it does not need to be instant gratification

2) Fox has nmc kicking in soon
It's now or never

 

[Machinehead]

to all of the above, you are forgetting...
1. The issue is not immediate win now
the ? is whether or not what Fox brings back is a net profit that helps us, how does it help, over what timetable?
But it does not need to be instant gratification

2) Fox has nmc kicking in soon
It's now or never

We're good with never.

 

[kovazub94]

Has Fox been hamstrung by Lindgren in the last two seasons? 100%.

Is he completely back to 100% healthy after last season? My guess would be no because with a puck on his stick Fox's signature ability to avoid contact and maintain possession in tight spaces is not such a feature that it's been before. and he also has been less effective in the defensive zone and it's not all Lindgren. But we do have a lot of poster who have a long term memory of a hamster and now think that what they see this year is what Fox is (SMH).

Moving Lindgren and Kreider and then finding 1LD to play with Fox is such a far and away priority for Drury everything else is just noise.

 

[McRanger92]

We're good with never.

Bern has been chasing that delayed gratification for almost 2 decades lol

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

One of the most important attributes needed up front in the top 9 is speed.

After losing Chytil and with a number of vets aging they need younger, faster skaters who can stretch the ice and also apply quicker pressure on the forecheck. This team is already slow and is going to get progressively slower over the next 3 years

 

[TheDirtyH]

Hanifin.

You're not concerned with Fox's level of play this season? Everyone blames every factor except Fox. Lindgren's fault. Drury's fault. Laviolette's fault. Housley's fault. Who else can you blame?

Fox was supposed to play with Slavin in the 4 Nations and we would see the real Adam Fox. Fox still looks awful. The lack of a defense partner is why Fox looks awful? He is not the same player from a few seasons ago. Lindgren was the partner at that time. Nothing has really changed. He takes a dumb penalty last night and he whines to the officials. Be quiet and serve your two minutes.

Top 20 skaters in the 4 Nations



Sweden-U.S.

Nobody has been blaming Fox's play on his partner. Many have been blaming the results this team is getting on Lindgren, who happens to be Fox's partner and somehow manages to get vastly different results than Fox. People want an actual top-four quality LHD on their top pair because good teams have those.

Meanwhile, you pick and choose when to think 'models' matter. Show the same guys charts from the Canada US game or don't bother bringing them up. It's sad.

Dom loves Fox. Fox has the 5th highest actual and projected GS among defensemen in the league this season according to Dom. 11.5mil market value.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Nobody has been blaming Fox's play on his partner. Many have been blaming the results this team is getting on Lindgren, who happens to be Fox's partner and somehow manages to get vastly different results than Fox. People want an actual top-four quality LHD on their top pair because good teams have those.

Meanwhile, you pick and choose when to think 'models' matter. Show the same guys charts from the Canada US game or don't bother bringing them up. It's sad.

Dom loves Fox. Fox has the 5th highest actual and projected GS among defensemen in the league this season according to Dom. 11.5mil market value.

View attachment 978867

Dom loves Fox? Ugh i guess i hate Fox now

 

[duhmetreE]

One of the most important attributes needed up front in the top 9 is speed.

After losing Chytil and with a number of vets aging they need younger, faster skaters who can stretch the ice and also apply quicker pressure on the forecheck. This team is already slow and is going to get progressively slower over the next 3 years

Effort can help. We have a lot of coasters and watchers. Players like Berard need to be here because he attacks the puck.

Kreider, Zibs and now Laffy need to attack more. They are fully capable

 

[McRanger92]

Effort can help. We have a lot of coasters and watchers. Players like Berard need to be here because he attacks the puck.

Kreider, Zibs and now Laffy need to attack more. They are fully capable

if these international games are a 10 on the intensity scale, the Rangers have been playing at barely a level 5 this season. It's very obvious, especially when we have 6 guys playing in them. they better come back with a purpose or it's curtains for a few guys ranger careers

 

[duhmetreE]

Fox needs a strong offseason routine. His shot has been bad this year. His mobility looks a little more janky which was never his strength to begin with.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

back issues are not mere discomfort
your generalization "Injured players don’t play" is fair. Howev, it is a rigid yes/no black/white scenario which does not acknowledge the reality of gray middle ground.
Kreid is looking good lately when he plays now, but it is at the cost of sitting games here and there, and sometimes coasting when he does play. He has to do but not overdo, and pick his spots for isolated bursts of going full tilt. I am not a dr but that is what the eye test says

It does not make sense for a trade partner to pay full top $$$ price for classic Kreider given the above reality.
I get how some peeps here don't wanna admit to current ck medical condition and treatment actually being as I've described, despite what is obv, and don't want to follow thru and admit current Kreider does not command max value, only discounted value at present time.

we should keep ck at discount for now
reassess going forward if as appears his back continues to repair

he has short term contract, no nmc to kick in
let's not be stupid and either
give away an asset cheap
or
give away an asset more profitable to keep



1. "I like Chris Kreider but this team doesn't revolve around him. If people can contemplate moving Igor, Fox, Panarin, Lafreniere they can certainly contemplate moving Kreider.....and you don't have to take it like it's a personal affront."
a) agree team does not revolve around ck, but that is not relevant to my basic pt, which is you don't shortchange yourself on an asset.
b) I don't take it as a personal affront that some want to move him. They have a right to their opinion and I have a right to assert my position. I support the overall competition of ideas. I have a right to impress that ck's health status is likely as I have described, and ignoring that is not constructive to an objective appraisal of the situation.
c) I do take Mika's conduct as a personal affront. He has thumbed his nose at all of us, to which there is no excuse or justification, and to which he must be expelled asap.


2. "don't get how trading Kreider appeases Mika? That doesn't make any sense"
Some have proffered that zib won't waive if ck is still here, so Kreids must go first.
No, fug that, zib does not determine that. He capitulates to R mgmt.
It is also necessary to draw this line in the sand going forward for other players.

3. "You're ready to make excuses for Kreiders underwhelming season and not Mika's."
Kreider does not need an excuse; for him, there is a legit reason: injury.
And let us objectively remember this injury is likely in part our fault due to Rs playing pretty much only him on PP in front of the net, where he constantly gets beat up. Rinse and repeat for several seasons, with zero relief, and is it any wonder this guy's having back problems?
LET ALL THAT TRUTH SINK IN, PEOPLE

Meeka has no honest or other basis for his conduct, which is an apparent disregard for his contractual duties, not playing 100% at all times, playing offense when he wants and showing zero contact engagement.
who the eff does he think he is?
I'm happy to cut our losses and not hope for more later while keeping this guy around. IF he is ostracized as he deserves to be and agrees to move, we can likely send him to NYI or BOS for min return which is fine, and should be done IMMEDIATELY
LET ALL THAT TRUTH SINK IN, PEOPLE

So you don't want to sell Kreider cheap hoping at 34+ he regains form but that doesn't apply to a younger Zib? Hypocritical nonsense. 2025 Zib has played better. 2025 Kreider remains very poor. If they are going to "cut their losses", it's going to be with Kreider based on contract and performance.

 

[Machinehead]

Nobody has been blaming Fox's play on his partner. Many have been blaming the results this team is getting on Lindgren, who happens to be Fox's partner and somehow manages to get vastly different results than Fox. People want an actual top-four quality LHD on their top pair because good teams have those.

Meanwhile, you pick and choose when to think 'models' matter. Show the same guys charts from the Canada US game or don't bother bringing them up. It's sad.

Dom loves Fox. Fox has the 5th highest actual and projected GS among defensemen in the league this season according to Dom. 11.5mil market value.

View attachment 978867

This tracks with what most of the analytics say, which is that his struggles have actually been on the penalty kill.

I'd be interested to know how many of the neck snaps that annoy all the weirdos on here have been on the penalty kill.

Last year, PK metrics measured Fox as the best penalty killer in the league, forward or defense, so...

PK metrics tend to be bunko because they just follow whether or not your goalie happened to make a save when you were on the ice.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Fox's ability to escape under pressure makes him a solid penalty killer, but his size prevents him from being elite in a game-state where attacking the crease has been the meta for decades.

 

[Mandar]

Bern has been chasing that delayed gratification for almost 2 decades lol

and when they didnt put Boo at 1C, it went all downhill from there.....

 

[bernmeister]

We're good with never.

thanks for a response on #2, as to recognizing nmc kicking in
would appreciate your honest and objective analysis as to #1, what he brings in vs keeping....

hard to be good with never if the return >> keeping

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

thanks for a response on #2, as to recognizing nmc kicking in
would appreciate your honest and objective analysis as to #1, what he brings in vs keeping....

hard to be good with never if the return >> keeping

The return has almost 0% chance of being greater than keeping, especially if it looks like that God awful Ottawa deal you continue pushing.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern has been chasing that delayed gratification for almost 2 decades lol

would not be nec for extended period if R mgt
were to bend, buckle and break and listen to bern and do some of the shit which it is established as a matter of record, I called out in real time-> or advance of, and was proven right

One of the most important attributes needed up front in the top 9 is speed.

After losing Chytil and with a number of vets aging they need younger, faster skaters who can stretch the ice and also apply quicker pressure on the forecheck. This team is already slow and is going to get progressively slower over the next 3 years

which correct observation supports the next step, deal Fox + Shesty for quality youth, incl legs w/speed

 

[TGWL]

I have no idea where to put this but this is a great video!

That was a good, but long watch. Also that goal is called back 100 out of 100 times.

 

[bernmeister]

So you don't want to sell Kreider cheap hoping at 34+ he regains form but that doesn't apply to a younger Zib? Hypocritical nonsense. 2025 Zib has played better. 2025 Kreider remains very poor. If they are going to "cut their losses", it's going to be with Kreider based on contract and performance.

1. about zib:

Evaluating Zibanejad's tournament after Sweden's Elimination from the Four Nations

Mika Zibanejad has been the story of the New York Rangers underperformers for a while now, but his Four Nations tournament is interesting. Mika only played two

bluelinestation.com

the pertinent quote in that is: "Outside of that one break, Zibanejad just underperformed."

'better' from how far down he dragged himself and is NOT acceptable or sufficient


2. about Kreider:
"So you don't want to sell Kreider cheap hoping at 34+ he regains form but that doesn't apply to a younger Zib?"
there is zero reason to believe that ck, who has always visibly shown he is committed to staying in shape all year round, will not rebound IF the back issue is healed

some cretins want his back to conform to their mindset and schedule
they are the hypocrites

zib refuses to make the full commitment effort despite being paid to go there

ck is heroically doing more than he should


learn from your disingenuous mistakes

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Effort can help. We have a lot of coasters and watchers. Players like Berard need to be here because he attacks the puck.

Kreider, Zibs and now Laffy need to attack more. They are fully capable

I agree. I also think part of the problem is they've been burned so badly by the odd-man rush as a group and thats in their heads, to a fault.

When they went on a little streak this season the forwards weren't going in as deeply, so they could get back on the backcheck quicker and close the passing lanes through the neutral zone. That could be interpreted as watching and lack of effort. It works, but you sacrifice a lot of zone time and it makes for a slog of a game.

They need both. They've always lacked a consistent urgency in their game that needs to improve but better skaters who can cover the ice with purpose could help instill some juice into a stale forward group. They used to be one of the better rush teams in the league but a lot of that has gone away because of their deficiencies defensively.

Fire Housely, add a better puck moving/puck possessing defenseman or two and some wheels up front to stretch the ice for the guys you are stuck with.

 

[bernmeister]

Effort can help. We have a lot of coasters and watchers. Players like Berard need to be here because he attacks the puck.

Kreider, Zibs and now Laffy need to attack more. They are fully capable

Kreider is doing what he can as best he can with an eye to working back to 111%

zibs and to lesser extent LaF have no excuse

 

[Machinehead]

thanks for a response on #2, as to recognizing nmc kicking in
would appreciate your honest and objective analysis as to #1, what he brings in vs keeping....

hard to be good with never if the return >> keeping

People horribly overrate these big returns for star players.

Leetch brought back absolutely nothing. McDonagh brought back nothing. The best piece the Sabres got back for Eichel is Alex Tuch -- the futures turned into nothing.

Look at what the Canucks got back for Miller. Mancini sucks. The pick has a better chance of not being an NHL player than being one. The most likely scenario is that they traded JT Miller for Filip Chytil one-for-one.

Hell, we made all these trades after Gorton sent out the letter and every one of them added up to *fart noise*. Everyone good on the current roster was here before or was acquired after. We did a whole rebuild that brought back nothing.

Good returns do exist. Ottawa probably got back equal or better value for Erik Karlsson, but that required San Jose immediately going into a tailspin after the trade and handing Ottawa lottery picks, which is pretty exceptional.

You always envision trading prime players and getting the return Quebec/Colorado got for Lindros. I envision the more likely scenario which is Howden, Namestnikov, and Hajek.

Adam Fox is still a top 15 defenseman right now and has been this season. In fact, I think I'm being conservative with that. That's his worst. The likelihood that any return comes anywhere near that is slim to none.

 

[bernmeister]

and when they didnt put Boo at 1C, it went all downhill from there.....

it has been established they had nothing to lose with that experiment of Boo betw CK + MZ, which we are seeing to this day becoming erratic so as to show that breaking up the wonder twins from exclusive paired duty would have been smart.

So any derisive dig in that direction is repudiated.

I try to support R mgmt when I can, but there are some exceptions
this is one

I'm still furious about Cat Francis dealing Ratelle and Park to BOS just because, per Rod Gilbert, "he wanted to show he could".

THAT should not have been done
Zib on the other hand, deserves to be broken

The return has almost 0% chance of being greater than keeping, especially if it looks like that God awful Ottawa deal you continue pushing.

spoken like someone who blindly thinks
keeping 100% of physically declining asset >>> obtaining 130% or better new assets

and I've refuted your critique of my Ottawa deal
try to keep up

 

[bernmeister]

People horribly overrate these big returns for star players.

Leetch brought back absolutely nothing. McDonagh brought back nothing. The best piece the Sabres got back for Eichel is Alex Tuch -- the futures turned into nothing.

Look at what the Canucks got back for Miller. Mancini sucks. The pick has a better chance of not being an NHL player than being one. The most likely scenario is that they traded JT Miller for Filip Chytil one-for-one.

Hell, we made all these trades after Gorton sent out the letter and every one of them added up to *fart noise*. Everyone good on the current roster was here before or was acquired after. We did a whole rebuild that brought back nothing.

Good returns do exist. Ottawa probably got back equal or better value for Erik Karlsson, but that required San Jose immediately going into a tailspin after the trade and handing Ottawa lottery picks, which is pretty exceptional.

You always envision trading prime players and getting the return Quebec/Colorado got for Lindros. I envision the more likely scenario which is Howden, Namestnikov, and Hajek.

Adam Fox is still a top 15 defenseman right now and has been this season. In fact, I think I'm being conservative with that. That's his worst. The likelihood that any return comes anywhere near that is slim to none.

thanks for constructive feedback
some agreement
and even w/warts AF is better than top 15 D

Every return is dif in dif situations

I stand by what I said AS TO MY PROPPED RETURN
and am not conceited enuf to think it is the only one that can be profitable for Rs

 

[Machinehead]

thanks for constructive feedback
some agreement
and even w/warts AF is better than top 15 D

Every return is dif in dif situations

I stand by what I said AS TO MY PROPPED RETURN
and am not conceited enuf to think it is the only one that can be profitable for Rs

bern, we all appreciate your creativity, and I think this forum is often lacking for actual, concrete suggestions.

However, what you have proposed is obviously not what a real-life return would be. I have to play the odds that the real return is bad, because most of them are.

And let's say your proposal is the return.

Does Greig (already 22) become a #1 center? Does Pinto who is going on 25? (Honestly, he's like 2.5 years younger than Fox) Does Klevin (already 23) become a #1 D? Fox won a Norris around the same age Greig is now. Most players are what they are at 22. If the answer is no to all three (it is), then you've punched a hole in your lineup that you have no plans to replace to get a bunch of depth. A bunch of depth with no elite players has never won.

And then you're banking on the two 1st's replacing your #1 defenseman. Again, probably not.

So yeah, it's kind of bad, and what you proposed is in the high-end of returns.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

back issues are not mere discomfort
your generalization "Injured players don’t play" is fair. Howev, it is a rigid yes/no black/white scenario which does not acknowledge the reality of gray middle ground.
Kreid is looking good lately when he plays now, but it is at the cost of sitting games here and there, and sometimes coasting when he does play. He has to do but not overdo, and pick his spots for isolated bursts of going full tilt. I am not a dr but that is what the eye test says

It does not make sense for a trade partner to pay full top $$$ price for classic Kreider given the above reality.
I get how some peeps here don't wanna admit to current ck medical condition and treatment actually being as I've described, despite what is obv, and don't want to follow thru and admit current Kreider does not command max value, only discounted value at present time.

we should keep ck at discount for now
reassess going forward if as appears his back continues to repair

he has short term contract, no nmc to kick in
let's not be stupid and either
give away an asset cheap
or
give away an asset more profitable to keep



1. "I like Chris Kreider but this team doesn't revolve around him. If people can contemplate moving Igor, Fox, Panarin, Lafreniere they can certainly contemplate moving Kreider.....and you don't have to take it like it's a personal affront."
a) agree team does not revolve around ck, but that is not relevant to my basic pt, which is you don't shortchange yourself on an asset.
b) I don't take it as a personal affront that some want to move him. They have a right to their opinion and I have a right to assert my position. I support the overall competition of ideas. I have a right to impress that ck's health status is likely as I have described, and ignoring that is not constructive to an objective appraisal of the situation.
c) I do take Mika's conduct as a personal affront. He has thumbed his nose at all of us, to which there is no excuse or justification, and to which he must be expelled asap.


2. "don't get how trading Kreider appeases Mika? That doesn't make any sense"
Some have proffered that zib won't waive if ck is still here, so Kreids must go first.
No, fug that, zib does not determine that. He capitulates to R mgmt.
It is also necessary to draw this line in the sand going forward for other players.

3. "You're ready to make excuses for Kreiders underwhelming season and not Mika's."
Kreider does not need an excuse; for him, there is a legit reason: injury.
And let us objectively remember this injury is likely in part our fault due to Rs playing pretty much only him on PP in front of the net, where he constantly gets beat up. Rinse and repeat for several seasons, with zero relief, and is it any wonder this guy's having back problems?
LET ALL THAT TRUTH SINK IN, PEOPLE

Meeka has no honest or other basis for his conduct, which is an apparent disregard for his contractual duties, not playing 100% at all times, playing offense when he wants and showing zero contact engagement.
who the eff does he think he is?
I'm happy to cut our losses and not hope for more later while keeping this guy around. IF he is ostracized as he deserves to be and agrees to move, we can likely send him to NYI or BOS for min return which is fine, and should be done IMMEDIATELY
LET ALL THAT TRUTH SINK IN, PEOPLE

Bern is back with his never ending defending of Kreider's garbage hockey this season. Cant wait till he’s off the team so we dont need to hear it anymore.