Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XVI (Playoffs or Retool?)

[SnowblindNYR]

They were playing well. It wasn't just better than feces, they were winning games that they legitimately deserved to win and some of the teams they knocked off along the way were good and they even had losses where they generally looked really good (Colorado, that was on Igor and Panarin.)

Listen, I f***ing HATE it when people try to carve out every excuse in the book for players when they underperform - Its taken f***ing forever for people to come around on Lindgren (he's been wolf shit since the beginning of LAST season) and there are certain people who still try to act like Panarin has been adequate or even good in the playoffs. One of my least favorite things to have to read here so I'm saying this as someone who is far from a pumper of sunshine and rainbows.

Diminishing this team's efforts when they actually play well is equally as irratating. That doesn't mean that this team is actually good or even playoff worthy (FTR: I don't think they are, they basically punted that shit when they dropped games against Seattle, Chicago and Nashville in December) but they banked a bunch of points and sort of pulled themselves together during an 11 game stretch because they played well. Those are facts. That doesn't mean that it can't all fall apart again or that they're going to pull a 2019 Blues act. They probably will fall apart and there is no miracle run here (not as long as 55 is around, thats for f***ing sure.)

A team getting contributions from unlikely players is nothing new when they lead the league in scoring over a stretch of games. That shit is never coming strictly from your top guys. Rempe's goofy ass has 1 goal in January, he's hardly driving the offense.

OTOH They scored 4 goals 4 times in LOSSES this month (OT or otherwise.) They haven't been just stat padding in games where Igor shuts the other team out (one of his SO's was a game that they didn't score in either.) They picked up 19/28 points in January, so they scored at the right time more often than not.

I disagree with your take on Fox's skating all together, but thats also because I'm not trying to force my self to see something that isn't there.

They played well against Colorado too and had a bad goaltending performance and a brainfart, plus a top 10 player in the world taking over a game. Then they played well (at least even) for 2/3 of the game and gave up a bad goal. It was very disheartening that instead of giving it their all in the third they regressed to the December form where they just gave up in the third. That said overall they've been playing well and you can't win all of them. And before people bring up my posts but disheartening wins like that lead to overreaction posts by the fans. News at 11.

 

[bhamill]

you can't fix all of this in one season. Just get Lindgren off my team.

If Lavi would pledge, under penalty of death, or worse, to only play Lindgren on the third pair, and never with Fox, I'd be okay keeping him at a reasonable hit. But I just DO NOT TRUST that motherf***er to not keep them glued together.

 

[mas0764]

When they turned it around and were on the winning streak, of course you wanted to believe they could make the playoffs. And sure, they still have a chance to.

But you are fooling yourself if you really think this core/team has enough to go anywhere past that.

They dont have the ability/mental fortitude to sustain a .700+ winning from here on out. It was fun while it lasted.

Its a blessing in disguise that they are getting beat by better teams and slowly falling back down into a lottery spot. Adding to this team and missing the dance by a point or two or sneaking in is only going to be a detriment to the future.

It would be best if this continues and there's no doubt left, they are comfortable selling at the deadline and collecting assets to retool. Worst thing is if they hover around the bubble line and spend assets to buy. That was done 3 seasons in a row and this core has proven it cant get over the hump. And thats when they were winning Presidents Trophy.

Why in the world would this horrifically shitty season be any different? You are talking about a goddamn miracle.

There's a cadre of "let's make the playoffs and anything can happen, Shesterkin can carry us to a Cup."

It's false. Delusional. Misguided.

I appreciate the enthusiam but they are counting on a once in a generation or longer type of run. It's also setting aside that goaltenders don't carry you to winning four rounds in a playoffs. They can steal a game here or there or maybe even a series, but at the end of the day if your team isn't better than the other team you are almost always gonna see that equalize over the course of 7 games and you'll be out on your ass.

The Rangers would be just about the worst 5v5 team in the playoffs, either conference. There's no way that they are running that gauntlet.

Why hope for a miracle? It's far less of a miracle required to get some more young talent. That's the natural outcome of trading for assets and being bad - you'll get good young players, generally. Sure, you won't hit on all of them, and yes, some very poorly run teams stay bad forever, but that's a function of being poorly run, not a function of rebuilds not working.

 

[pld459666]

Last night should be THE game that forces Drury to jettison the "core" guys.

WTF was Trocheck doing there, SH breakaway and he tries a drop pass between the legs?

CK with a wide open net?

poor choices being made all over the ice. Like they were just thrown together and have not played with each other for the last 4-5 years.

This team is not a Miller away from competing.

the 10 game point string was the worst that could have happened to this franchise.

the amount of turnover this team needs right now is astronomical

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I’m expecting another shitty lazy 2-1 win against Boston and then they will pat themselves on their he back.

Boston is ass

But here's the problem. Let's say we win 5-1 in dominating fashion. We'll still just hear that Boston is ass and they won't get credit for it. Or they'll get a little bit of credit but the next time they lose we'll hear about how they're the worst team in the world. And as I said I fell in that trap this past game because of how disheartening it was since they really mostly played an even game.

Last night should be THE game that forces Drury to jettison the "core" guys.

WTF was Trocheck doing there, SH breakaway and he tries a drop pass between the legs?

CK with a wide open net?

poor choices being made all over the ice. Like they were just thrown together and have not played with each other for the last 4-5 years.

This team is not a Miller away from competing.

the 10 game point string was the worst that could have happened to this franchise.

the amount of turnover this team needs right now is astronomical

I'm sure Capitals fans thought this after eking out an 8 seed last year and getting swept in the first round.

 

[pld459666]

Or maybe EP40 is another Mika Zibanejad.

Mika with shorter hair

 

[17futurecap]

Remember when they had the top pair figured out to start the season, that was awesome.

 

[mas0764]

Adam Fox scored a SHG against Ottawa in the Rangers final game last season. In 16 playoff games, Fox had zero goals. A big bagel. 0. 8 lousy assists in 16 playoff games. No wonder why the Rangers lost. Again. I know, I know Fox was hurt after Jensen kneed him. It didn’t appear to be that bad. In 50 regular season games this season. Fox has one goal scored with the opposing goalie in the net. One. One lousy goal. January 9th. Power play. We can't blame the lack of opportunity. Fox's last goal at even strength 5 on 5 was last March 21 against Boston. 10 months ago. 78 games ago.

Adam Fox 2023-24 Stats per Game - NHL - ESPN

The fancy stats say Fox is Bobby Orr.

Perhaps the truth is somewhere in between.

Not everyone can have Cale Makar.

Fox is still a 26 year old, great at running the power play, very good defender, clear cut #1 defenseman, even if he's not in the same tier as the best of the best. Why are we running that guy off?

If anything maybe the argument is that he isn't of the caliber that can do it all by himself and he needs another high end defenseman with him (i'm not conceding that though), maybe someone with size and physicality?

Like... I'm not in a rush to run Will Cuylle out of town either. He's not an all-star, but he's a good middle six young player. He's a positive here and not a negative.

Even at his salary Fox is a positive and he's young enough to be good when we rebuild this thing.

 

[bhamill]

Folks, remember, when you go to call out analytics, this is the eye test.

This is what people who watch and do no other analysis think.

I take UMBRAGE, sir. Behold Angri Olli and tremble!!
I do no other analysis (I do read other people's and take it with a grain of salt, though) AND I DO NOT THINK THAT!
Umbrage, sir. UMBRAGE!

 

[JohnC]

"It didn't appear to be that bad." - haha, made my day!

With all due respect to RB, if Fox were like 2 inches taller he’d probably love him. Over the past two years the guy’s turned into a size queen when it comes to defensemen.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm entirely too negative. It's something I personally need to work on.

I was so excited to get high end prospects with high picks. And it just didn't work out. I don't even blame the Rangers org for Kakko and Laf. It is what it is.

I DO blame them for:

• Kravtsov
• Lias
• Not getting nearly enough for McDonagh
• Not getting nearly enough for Miller
• Not getting nearly enough for Zuc
• Not getting nearly enough for Buchnevich

I can go on. But this team's amateur and professional scouting staff is just terrible. I know that many of the positions have been turned over in the last few years, but I still don't see those changes being reflected with positive outcomes.

I've touched on this before: the more time passes, the more it becomes apparent that the Gorton administration was an unmitigated disaster. I'm not saying Drury is necessarily better. I still don't have a real opinion on Drury. This takes time.

I do know that we won't see positive outcomes until the culture is changed. It's Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider etc. They all had golden goose treatment. @GoAwayPanarin has finally sold me on Panarin. I defended him in the past because I don't think he's always lazy, but we allow him to have bad habits and we made his bad habits a team culture. We're left with a team that all play like Panarin and only one of them has the skill to do that. It's not going to be corrected here. It's been three coaches.

I pick on coaches but the way they're judged is unfair. They either win or they don't. That's all their job security comes down to. Of course they're going to let Panairn cook. Look at the points he puts up. Somebody mentioned it yesterday -- coaches are middle management. The expectations are set upstairs. They'll just get the next guy to do what they wanted you to do. Gorton signed these guys (ok, Drury extended Zibanejad very early on in his tenure but that was never not happening) with the directive that they're untouchable. This is is the core we're winning the Cup with. The only recourse now is to get rid of the players.

Lafreniere might be salavagable because he's young. Fox, I don't care, because this version of him is still firmly a top 10 D. The rest of the "star" players have to go, along with Lindgren who just sucks and plays in our top 4.

 

[Machinehead]

I take UMBRAGE, sir. Behold Angri Olli and tremble!!
I do no other analysis (I do read other people's and take it with a grain of salt, though) AND I DO NOT THINK THAT!
Umbrage, sir. UMBRAGE!

Umbrage

 

[CLW]

I expect his offensive numbers would be down considering the whole team’s has . But his goal scoring impotence is baffling .

Fox doesn't get into the shooting positions he used to right now. He's goals are usually high IQ plays where he sneaks up, finds a soft spot around the goal and pop in a shot when the D breaks down in confusion. He hardly ever scored from the blue line, then or now. His goals are/were basic, but accurate, wristers from in close (the dots and closer). I can recall goal or so from further out through a screen on the PP, but those haven't been the norm.

Fox simply doesn't look as sneaky anymore.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

View attachment 969074

Remember when they had the top pair figured out to start the season, that was awesome.

Laviolette to The Hague

 

[Fitzy]

There is no functional skip-to-new post feature with hf set to dark mode on my phone browser which means I literally have to scroll down 10 pages and clock next until I’m caught up again. Extremely time consuming and annoying.

But Fox doesn’t need to have a good shot to score. He just needs to actually hit the net. He looks like he and Mika both lost their eye doctor to new insurance

 

[bhamill]

And that's worked so well that you want to have it here too?

If it motivates 93 to waive his NMC... sign me up.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

There is no functional skip-to-new post feature with hf set to dark mode on my phone browser which means I literally have to scroll down 10 pages and clock next until I’m caught up again. Extremely time consuming and annoying.

But Fox doesn’t need to have a good shot to score. He just needs to actually hit the net. He looks like he and Mika both lost their eye doctor to new insurance

He needs to change the way he plays, along with the rest of the team.

On a functional offense he’d be well over a PPG every year

 

[mas0764]

I've touched on this before: the more time passes, the more it becomes apparent that the Gorton administration was an unmitigated disaster. I'm not saying Drury is necessarily better. I still don't have a real opinion on Drury. This takes time.

I do know that we won't see positive outcomes until the culture is changed. It's Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider etc. They all had golden goose treatment. @GoAwayPanarin has finally sold me on Panarin. I defended him in the past because I don't think he's always lazy, but we allow him to have bad habits and we made his bad habits a team culture. We're left with a team that all play like Panarin and only one of them has the skill to do that. It's not going to be corrected here. It's been three coaches.

I pick on coaches but the way they're judged is unfair. They either win or they don't. That's all their job security comes down to. Of course they're going to let Panairn cook. Look at the points he puts up. Somebody mentioned it yesterday -- coaches are middle management. The expectations are set upstairs. They'll just get the next guy to do what they wanted you to do. Gorton signed these guys (ok, Drury extended Zibanejad very early on in his tenure but that was never not happening) with the directive that they're untouchable. This is is the core we're winning the Cup with. The only recourse now is to get rid of the players.

Lafreniere might be salavagable because he's young. Fox, I don't care, because this version of him is still firmly a top 10 D. The rest of the "star" players have to go, along with Lindgren who just sucks and plays in our top 4.

The one thing I'll give Drury credit for is being ruthless enough to dump guys like Goodrow and Trouba when the room was against it.

But to get rid of the players, as you say, the ones that are the problem, I think that results in a pretty big step back. Panarin may be a problem for the culture, but no one is available to step in and fill his 90 point shoes.

I think if you are moving out the "big four" in Lindgren, Panarin, Mika and Kreider, you probably don't have replacements on hand to reload that group right away and be a contender. You might scrape together a playoff team next year with Trocheck/Chytil as your 1-2, and with Lafreniere, Perrault, Othmann, and Reilly Smith or something. But to me that's just wasting more time.

Full measures.

You said in another post, analyze who should stay. But I think having realistic expectations of how quickly you can actually compete for a Cup again needs to be factoring into that math. Why would Trocheck be on the keep list? Etc.

 

[Machinehead]

Fox was more effective at finding ice in the past because teams treated Lindgren like a credible threat at the NHL level.

He's getting the Ben Simmons treatment now. Help is coming off of Lindgren to double team Fox before Fox even beats the first man.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

View attachment 969074

Remember when they had the top pair figured out to start the season, that was awesome.

Yeah but dude Miller fumbled some pucks and I saw him miss a coverage

 

[LokiDog]

Umbrage

I agree with your entire post before this one. My negativity about the team and about how it’s still the same mediocre crap from the Nov/Dec stretch is about what you’re highlighting - not the tit for tat I got into with @GoAwayPanarin who is also right, in what he’s factually saying. It isn’t about whether they played better or not. It’s about this group being expired whether they played better as GAP says or they were still crap and just got timely goals from depth and better goaltending as I contested. It doesn’t matter. What matters is essentially what you wrote - all of the main characters need to go. Laf may be salvageable as you say and Fox is still a very good D, as you say. Everyone else has to go. I don’t care if they have a better stretch or not. There is NOTHING this group can do to earn my faith or support at this stage. Any wins that lead to job security for these guys or worse, to thinking we should actually buy and not continue with large scale changes, is a net negative for us as fans because the team will only continue to suck with the same culprits responsible. As long as it’s Mika and Chrissy and Bread and Vinny and Lindy night after night, it simply doesn’t matter if they’re as horrible as their December or the rest of the team has been better. These guys need gone.

 

[Profet]

Fox was more effective at finding ice in the past because teams treated Lindgren like a credible threat at the NHL level.

He's getting the Ben Simmons treatment now. Help is coming off of Lindgren to double team Fox before Fox even beats the first man.

Watching Fox face two defenders at the offensive blue line AND STILL manage to find the open man (who happens to be Lindgren) still amazes me.

Watching a wide open Lindgren step into a muffin or a shot wide makes me unreasonably angry.

 

[Machinehead]

The one thing I'll give Drury credit for is being ruthless enough to dump guys like Goodrow and Trouba when the room was against it.

But to get rid of the players, as you say, the ones that are the problem, I think that results in a pretty big step back. Panarin may be a problem for the culture, but no one is available to step in and fill his 90 point shoes.

I think if you are moving out the "big four" in Lindgren, Panarin, Mika and Kreider, you probably don't have replacements on hand to reload that group right away and be a contender. You might scrape together a playoff team next year with Trocheck/Chytil as your 1-2, and with Lafreniere, Perrault, Othmann, and Reilly Smith or something. But to me that's just wasting more time.

Full measures.

You said in another post, analyze who should stay. But I think having realistic expectations of how quickly you can actually compete for a Cup again needs to be factoring into that math. Why would Trocheck be on the keep list? Etc.

They're just gonna have to get lucky to get a legit 1C. It's hard to finish that low even if you try. And then you have to win the lottery. And then it has to be the right year.

I'm ok with taking a step back but I question the efficacy of actively trying to be as bad as possible.

 

[GAGLine]

Adam Fox scored a SHG against Ottawa in the Rangers final game last season. In 16 playoff games, Fox had zero goals. A big bagel. 0. 8 lousy assists in 16 playoff games. No wonder why the Rangers lost. Again. I know, I know Fox was hurt after Jensen kneed him. It didn’t appear to be that bad. In 50 regular season games this season. Fox has one goal scored with the opposing goalie in the net. One. One lousy goal. January 9th. Power play. We can't blame the lack of opportunity. Fox's last goal at even strength 5 on 5 was last March 21 against Boston. 10 months ago. 78 games ago.

Adam Fox 2023-24 Stats per Game - NHL - ESPN

The fancy stats say Fox is Bobby Orr.

You're not arguing in good faith.

Fox had 17 goals in 72 games last year. He had 12 goals in 82 games the year before and 11 goals in 78 games the year before that.

He has 87 shots on goal in 50 games. That's an average of 1.74 per game. That is down a bit from the prior 3 seasons, but his shooting percentage is way down at 3.5%. Last year he shot 12.4% and his career average is 7.3%. If he were shooting at his career average, he would have 6 goals instead of 3, and be on pace for 10, which is roughly on par with what he has done 2 of the last 3 seasons.

Regarding the playoffs, Fox had 8 points in 7 playoff games 2 years ago and 23 points in 20 playoff games 3 years ago. And although you downplayed it, you conceded that Fox was hurt last year.

Since 2021-22, he has the 4th most points among dmen and is tied for the 10th most goals among dmen with 43. Yes, he's having a down year, but so is the entire team. If the rising tide lifts all boats, the falling tide lowers them. Outside of Cuylle, who has surpassed last year's totals due to a very hot start and then fallen off, which players aren't producing less than they did last year?

It isn't fair to single out Fox when nearly every other player on the team is producing less than they did the year before. Maybe you think this is what Fox is now, but at age 26, I don't see it. He isn't Lindgren who plays a physical game his body wasn't built for.

You can argue that he isn't as good as Hughes or Makar and that's fine. I'd probably agree with you. But that doesn't mean he isn't still an extremely good player and extremely valuable to the Rangers. Could we get a haul if we trade him? Absolutely. But you'll need to show me that haul and convince me that it's a better option than keeping him before I'll sign off on it.

 

[mas0764]

They're just gonna have to get lucky to get a legit 1C. It's hard to finish that low even if you try. And then you have to win the lottery. And then it has to be the right year.

I'm ok with taking a step back but I question the efficacy of actively trying to be as bad as possible.

I don't want to strip it down to the studs. I want to keep Lafreniere, Cuylle, Fox, etc.

I just feel like you have to clear cap space, get assets, get some more young forwards and defensemen in here in the draft, and then can you find either a consolidation trade or free agent center at some point?

People act like it never happens, but, Jack Eichel. Pettersson is available right this second for probably not an exorbitant cost. You're gonna have to take a risk and get lucky, but yeah, they need the assets and cap space to get a 1C if they aren't gonna get into the top 3 of a draft. But even getting into the top 10 for a year or two, and getting a couple extra firsts, that will restock things quickly.