Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

[Bob Richards]

I'm probably in the minority here but I think Laf's play just mirrored everyone else's this season. The whole team gave up after like 20 games. No one played particularly well this year (or at least up to their potential) I think Laf is still a 70+ point player during a season where everyone's heads aren't firmly planted up their asses.

I think you’re right and I’d lean towards this thinking.

However that does present its own disappointing problem. That our 1st overall pick just simply isn’t good enough to set any trends himself. He’s more like a weathervane telling you how the rest of the team is performing lol

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I'm probably in the minority here but I think Laf's play just mirrored everyone else's this season. The whole team gave up after like 20 games. No one played particularly well this year (or at least up to their potential) I think Laf is still a 70+ point player during a season where everyone's heads aren't firmly planted up their asses.

Nope not alone. He played like everyone else. Culture is terrible. Hopefully that changes when we get rid of some of the main contributors of that in the offseason.

 

[GAGLine]

Hopefully that will increase his trade value.

 

[bhamill]

He knows that, he's trying to be cute with numbers that mean zero without the context he conveniently left out.

Wait, getting 2 mins of pp time in 30 second blocks starting outside the O zone with second tier players isn't exactly the same as 2 mins of powerplay time in one block with the FIRST unit? HOW COULD THIS BE?!?

 

[bhamill]

Over the same timeframe, Jacob Trouba, who was apparently the cause of Lafreniere putting up a 1.99 p/60 on the powerplay, put up a 2.69 p/60 on the powerplay.

Filip Chytil, 2.08.

Kaapo Kakko, 3.27.

Reilly Smith, 3.35. 5.02 just as a Ranger!!!

Erik Gustafsson last year, 5.60.

Smith and Gustafsson put up legit first-unit numbers on the same PP2 that Lafreniere was on.

All of the guys on PP2 who were sabotaging Lafreniere outproduced him.

Some people are just beyond the pale with Lafreniere. There's absolutely nothing he can do to convince them he's just not very good.

Weirdly, last year and the first 1/4 of this year EVERYONE thought he was very good... even the people shitting on him now.
Saying "yeah, he's had a bad last 3/4 (or majority, whatever) of the season but I think this 23 year old can still be at least as good as he's been before, if not better" is TOTALLY beyond the pale...

He's not a 32 year old shrinking Mika or a decaying Kreider. He's 23 and is having a backstep year, that coincided with a total team collapse. There's absolutely no logical reason to think he cant rebound...

 

[bhamill]

I think you’re right and I’d lean towards this thinking.

However that does present its own disappointing problem. That our 1st overall pick just simply isn’t good enough to set any trends himself. He’s more like a weathervane telling you how the rest of the team is performing lol

Yeah, I stopped expecting 1OA stuff from him and just look at him as a 23 year old NHLer. Five years on, his draft position is no longer relevant to me.

 

[Machinehead]

Weirdly, last year and the first 1/4 of this year EVERYONE thought he was very good... even the people shitting on him now.
Saying "yeah, he's had a bad last 3/4 (or majority, whatever) of the season but I think this 23 year old can still be at least as good as he's been before, if not better" is TOTALLY beyond the pale...

He's not a 32 year old shrinking Mika or a decaying Kreider. He's 23 and is having a backstep year. There's absolutely no logical reason to think he cant rebound...

That's not the notion I'm responding to.

I'm responding to the idea that the Rangers ruined him because they didn't give him opportunities.

Up until like halfway through this season, Cuylle was still playing less per game than a rookie Lafreniere did. He's had plenty of opportunities.

"Stutzle would be on our 4th line!"

LAFRENIERE WAS NEVER ON OUR 4TH LINE!!!!

 

[SA16]

Over the same timeframe, Jacob Trouba, who was apparently the cause of Lafreniere putting up a 1.99 p/60 on the powerplay, put up a 2.69 p/60 on the powerplay.

Filip Chytil, 2.08.

Kaapo Kakko, 3.27.

Reilly Smith, 3.35. 5.02 just as a Ranger!!!

Erik Gustafsson last year, 5.60.

Smith and Gustafsson put up legit first-unit numbers on the same PP2 that Lafreniere was on.

All of the guys on PP2 who were sabotaging Lafreniere outproduced him.

Some people are just beyond the pale with Lafreniere. There's absolutely nothing he can do to convince them he's just not very good.

That's not PP2 time for Gustafsson. He filled in for Fox when he was hurt. 6 of Gustafssons 9 PPP were when he was on the ice with Panarin/Kreider/Trocheck/Zibanejad.

 

[bhamill]

Hopefully that will increase his trade value.

Now he will want to be paid more than Igor...

 

[Machinehead]

That's not PP2 time for Gustafsson. He filled in for Fox when he was hurt. 6 of Gustafssons 9 PPP were when he was on the ice with Panarin.

Lafreniere filled in for Kreider this year and the powerplay was 0 for 773.

 

[Killem Dafoe]

He absolutely can go back to being a 60-70 point guy in a normal year. But he lacks compete, snarl, speed… he’s an okay top 6 guy who doesn’t fit the kind of elements this team is desperately in need of out of more in their top forwards.

He’s a better Reilly Smith in that sense. We need Chimera types

1000% agree with this. Hopefully this offseason...

I think you’re right and I’d lean towards this thinking.

However that does present its own disappointing problem. That our 1st overall pick just simply isn’t good enough to set any trends himself. He’s more like a weathervane telling you how the rest of the team is performing lol

Yeah that's a bit of a bummer, but I keep telling myself that the funk this team was in this year was so strong it kind of really got to everyone to the point where no one could really pull out of it. I'm so happy for this offseason. They need a big reset.

Nope not alone. He played like everyone else. Culture is terrible. Hopefully that changes when we get rid of some of the main contributors of that in the offseason.

From your lips to God's ears. Once some of these vets are gone hopefully we can bring in some new players and start focusing on the future and our younger players.

 

[majordomo]

Wait, getting 2 mins of pp time in 30 second blocks starting outside the O zone with second tier players isn't exactly the same as 2 mins of powerplay time in one block with the FIRST unit? HOW COULD THIS BE?!?

Hockey is different here.

 

[Machinehead]

I do think the culture sucks and the team desperately needs structure and standards. Again, that is also true.

But then I see WIll Cuylle, who has objectively been given a shorter leash, pretty much become a better player this year than Lafreniere.

Don't get me wrong, Cuylle has some awful defensive habits because this team has no structure, but offensively, he pretty much plays the right way. Guys are capable of doing it within this atmosphere. Some responsibility has to be on the players at this point.

That's been a thing for people this year. Get rid of the rotten core. Trade Mika. Trade Kreider. Trade Panairn. The guy I initially responded to doesn't even like Fox. Country club atmosphere. Drury about to hire a third coach. Accountability for the players. Trade the core. It's the players.

Lafreniere is one of the players.

 

[bhamill]

That's not the notion I'm responding to.

I'm responding to the idea that the Rangers ruined him because they didn't give him opportunities.

Up until like halfway through this season, Cuylle was still playing less per game than a rookie Lafreniere did. He's had plenty of opportunities.

"Stutzle would be on our 4th line!"

LAFRENIERE WAS NEVER ON OUR 4TH LINE!!!!

Ah. While I agree that Laf did not get the opportunities that high draft picks on bottom feeder teams get, I don't agree they RUINED him. The lack of time, PP and responsibility probably DID Pejorative Slur his development curve though. Laf spent no time that I remember on the 4th line, but plenty on the 3rd. And I'm no fortune teller, but I suspect Stutzle would have seen plenty of the 3rd line as well after a defensive mistake or 10.
Cuylle actually got the things Laf didn't by being brought along more slowly, league wise. He stayed in Juniors where he got tons of responsibility and then went to Hartford where he got the same. He's the same age as Laf, same draft, just a 2nd rounder rather than a 1OA. If Laf had been a 2nd we'd be pretty happy with him overall. I guess I'm in the minority, but expecting 1OA stuff from him is just not something I do. It's going to frustrate the f*** out of you. I look at him as what he actually is five years removed from the draft: a 23 year old NHLer.

Edit: apparently if we use re tard (without the space) in the appropriate way as a verb, the AI edits it to "Pejorative Slur"! I guess artificial intelligence ain't all THAT intelligent...

 

[Machinehead]

Ah. While I agree that Laf did not get the opportunities that high draft picks on bottom feeder teams get, I don't agree they RUINED him. The lack of time, PP and responsibility probably DID Pejorative Slur his development curve though. Laf spent no time that I remember on the 4th line, but plenty on the 3rd. And I'm no fortune teller, but I suspect Stutzle would have seen plenty of the 3rd line as well after a defensive mistake or 10.
Cuylle actually got the things Laf didn't by being brought along more slowly, league wise. He stayed in Juniors where he got tons of responsibility and then went to Hartford where he got the same. He's the same age as Laf, same draft, just a 2nd rounder rather than a 1OA. If Laf had been a 2nd we'd be pretty happy with him overall. I guess I'm in the minority, but expecting 1OA stuff from him is just not something I do. It's going to frustrate the f*** out of you. I look at him as what he actually is five years removed from the draft: a 23 year old NHLer.

He started every year of his NHL career in the top six, including his rookie year.

I think if we did that with Stutzle, he would have stayed there, because he's a great player.

I do think the Rangers have issues with young players, for reasons we have discussed, but we have to put some blame on the players.

You can look at him for what he is at this point, that's fine, but the blame is on him for not being more. If he does end up improving, it'll be because he worked on something, not because some magic coach finally put him in a magic role.

He should start with not killing every PP setup with a gun, and he would get more time there.

 

[RangerBoy]

The gap between what the vets produced and what the youth produced was very high. Now that some of the vets aren't producing as much, the team didn't get carried by them and the younger players didn't do enough to close that gap and make up for it. Until this season, the Vets were the ones leading the group to the playoffs and deeper runs.

Cuylle wasn't going to push the season to the winning side by being given 2 more minutes a night. Laf received plenty of time and did nothing with it outside the first 19 games. This season is on him and has nothing to do with being held back or the organization halting his development. He showed up last season and took a step back. Yes, the team took a major step back as well, but the way Lafreniere played is on him. The 4th line is the 4th line. I will agree that when the season was pretty much lost, a change should have be made. Whether it's a direct message to the vets, or just seeing what you have with your organization's youth, but they choose to ride it out and hope for the best

The argument can be made about putting our eggs in the wrong basket, how the organization believed this was a competitive team, rushing the rebuild, or just hiring the wrong personnel, but the vets carrying this team is because the other players couldn't.

Gabe, Othmann, Robertson and Jones played in the game against Florida? Aside from Berard coming back in, who else do you want to see? Or were you strictly talking about the powerplay?

Power play. It's same people. 90% of the time they overstay with their shift and the 2nd unit barely plays.
The PP sucked. It's predictable.

I think the Rangers have one more recall remaining. I would have called up Sykora. Play Berard. Watching Miller and Trocheck celebrate scoring goals during game 81 after the Rangers have been eliminated from the playoffs was too much.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The culture clearly blows and I'm all for getting rid of the bad apples + booting Loveeveryvet but I think it's gotten to the point where its overblown as an issue.

It clearly is a problem, but I don't think it's the reason why almost the entire roster collectively had a down year or why the PP went from elite to one of the league's worst.

the calls of this team being doomed or needing to rebuild are nonsense, but so is the notion that things will be solved by just removing some of the vets and the coach. Theres a decent amount of road work to be done and every reason to doubt the guy in charge's ability to do it.

Maybe Drury surprises everyone and knocks it out of the park by getting to build a team the way he wants to but he didn't really do a good job at all at augmenting the roster that he inherited (as flawed as it may have been.)

 

[MrAlmost]

Lafreniere filled in for Kreider this year and the powerplay was 0 for 773.

To be fair, the powerplay is 0 for 1276 anyways.

Lef can be a 60 to 70 point player on a good team. Thats valuable. He plays well with good players and when the team is going. Trouble seems to be he will not really go by himself. At least yet.

Edit: And to add, the only time he finally got powerplay time on unit 1 was the worst time of the Rangers year. Haha

 

[McRanger92]

Lafreniere was playing great this season until he signed the extension. No PP time. I think Lafreniere has some real bad habits. Some learned, some he already had. His season went down the tubes around the time the Rangers season as a whole did. Correlation or causation? Probably both. It's been clear for a long time that he's not a well conditioned player. Slow and constantly falling down. gets nothing on his passes compared to last year.

Mentally I think there was some frustration on his end. There was almost certainly frustration among the younger players about how the the veterans were never really punished for their poor play aside from one offs. Kakko and Jones have said as much on record.

I think there is room to understand Lafreniere being somewhat demoralized by never being put in a position to rack up points and confidence on the powerplay, but I also think that as a #1OA who the team still committed years and big bucks too shouldve stepped up and taken control of his season and been a leader. I think rehabilitating him should be a priority and is very doable. he has shown to raise his game in big moments. He's only 23. If rebuilding is our only option according to some, why trade a 23 year old?

 

[bhamill]

He started every year of his NHL career in the top six, including his rookie year.

I think if we did that with Stutzle, he would have stayed there, because he's a great player.

I do think the Rangers have issues with young players, for reasons we have discussed, but we have to put some blame on the players.

You can look at him for what he is at this point, that's fine, but the blame is on him for not being more. If he does end up improving, it'll be because he worked on something, not because some magic coach finally put him in a magic role.

He should start with not killing every PP setup with a gun, and he would get more time there.

Well we will never know where Stutzle would be in his development here if he started in the top six but was yanked as soon as he had a defensive lapse. You saying he would have stayed in the top six is either assuming that they'd have treated Stutzle different or that he would have been WAY more defensively responsible here than he was in OTT... I wouldn't assume either, personally, but who knows.

Yeah I'm not looking to BLAME anyone. It is what it is. I think he had a shit year after a very good start, and I think he likely rebounds next year. There is zero reason he CAN'T... But maybe he WON'T. Either way people have all summer to shit on him. Hahahaha.

 

[Machinehead]

Well we will never know where Stutzle would be in his development here if he started in the top six but was yanked as soon as he had a defensive lapse. You saying he would have stayed in the top six is either assuming that they'd have treated Stutzle different or that he would have been WAY more defensively responsible here than he was in OTT... I wouldn't assume either, personally, but who knows.

Yeah I'm not looking to BLAME anyone. It is what it is. I think he had a shit year after a very good start, and I think he likely rebounds next year. There is zero reason he CAN'T... But maybe he WON'T. Either way people have all summer to shit on him. Hahahaha.

I don't know, I feel like "yanked because they didn't play defense" is a bit of a meme. This team probably has fewer defensive standards than any team in the league.

Our guys regularly blow coverage like a horn and have no repercussions for it.

I do think we're hard on kids sometimes but what we actually want isn't clear. That's a legitimate problem.

 

[kovazub94]

The culture clearly blows and I'm all for getting rid of the bad apples + booting Loveeveryvet but I think it's gotten to the point where its overblown as an issue.

It clearly is a problem, but I don't think it's the reason why almost the entire roster collectively had a down year or why the PP went from elite to one of the league's worst.

the calls of this team being doomed or needing to rebuild are nonsense, but so is the notion that things will be solved by just removing some of the vets and the coach. Theres a decent amount of road work to be done and every reason to doubt the guy in charge's ability to do it.

Maybe Drury surprises everyone and knocks it out of the park by getting to build a team the way he wants to but he didn't really do a good job at all at augmenting the roster that he inherited (as flawed as it may have been.)

Yup, I'm ok if someone subjectively isolates 7-8 weeks in November / December for whatever they want to call that stretch but let's not use this excuse (i.e it's Drury's fault) for how the whole season went.

 

[EdJovanovski]

 

[bl02]

Hopefully that will increase his trade value.

We literally can not trade him. This team can not be a lottery team next year.
If we had our 26 first rounder sure. It actually would have been a smart move getting back some picks and a good prospect.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

No roster building til Drury is gone, Gorton is on his 2nd rebuild and their team is already better than ours. Idiotic move getting rid of Gorton and jd