Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[bhamill]

No argument here at all. Just that he is going to be a useful player. If a team out there thinks he's going to be more and is willing to offer good value for that upside, then make a deal

Really, getting value is the issue. And unless Kakko tears it up at 4 Nations he's worth more to NYR than anything we'd likely get as a return. And if he DOES tear it up at 4 Nations why would we want to trade him? It would show we need to utilize him better.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Mattias Samuelsson is more of the same.

He’s an oaf with no puck skills who gets credit for being good defensively because he occasionally puts out his own fires.

 

[surlysailor]

Laviolette has been doing a Tom Renney impression this year. make no strategic adjustments, bench young players unfairly, etc. Where is torts when you need him?

But, but he's constantly scratching Brodz & Vesey. Obv that'll help hold the rest of the vets accountable, and prove he's not biased /s/

 

[bhamill]

They are clearly the ones running the locker room, so yes they are the leaders of the country club.

Maybe saying they are TERRIBLE leaders would make it easier for people to grasp. Hahahaha.

 

[IDvsEGO]

So Cuylle should have gone at 1OA?
I get what you are saying, but its not THAT rare, unless you are talking top 5% in all three areas. Cuylle is like 6'3" 215, not HUGE, fast but no McDavid of course, skilled, and again no McDavid... but he is big, fast and skilled... and there are players like that out there. We should of course try to get BIGGER/HEAVIER on the puck, FASTER, and more SKILLED... I mean obviously. But that doesn't mean EVERY player has to have all three attributes: Fox is skilled but not fast or big, so maybe a partner who has size and speed would be great... complimentary pieces. And playing heavier doesn't mean you have to be BIG. Look at Berard, fast, good skill, good aggression, not big but plays big. He's hard on the puck. GP is going to be avg sized, above average speed, ridiculous skillset. AND he plays with decent aggression. He WANTS it. Exactly what we DON'T see from our 93's and 20's these days...
Anyway, wasn't taking issue with your assessment that someone who is top tier in size, speed and skill is a 1OA, just saying you can get bigger faster and more skilled by getting players with those things in varying combination.

Cuylle developed his skills. He’s still not that talented but maximizing what he can do.
There’s always room for growth which is why teams do draft size frequently.

 

[Machinehead]

I would do the roster a lot differently, but stylistically, the 2014 team was hockey nirvana.

They played fast and direct all over the ice. They had lots of grit and exactly the right kind of it. It wasn't physically imposing but they hounded the puck and took contact to make plays.

The puck support was immaculate. They came after you in layer after layer all over the ice. Every movement was efficient and useful.

They didn't have gamebreaking offensive talent, but the lineup was infested with guys who could handle the puck.

It wasn't grit or talent, it was both, marinated in a whole lot of speed.

The guy that most embodies this currently is Brett Berard. Cuylle is a fit. Chytil is also a really good fit. He's not MacKinnon in terms of skill or Bennett in terms of grit, but he's talented enough to make zone entries and tough enough to play real hockey. This team desperately needs at least one more center who can play in the neutral zone like Chytil. Zibanejad and Trocheck are both grenade jugglers. It doesn't have to be Connor McDavid, just somebody with good NHL hands.

 

[will1066]

Really, getting value is the issue. And unless Kakko tears it up at 4 Nations he's worth more to NYR than anything we'd likely get as a return. And if he DOES tear it up at 4 Nations why would we want to trade him? It would show we need to utilize him better.

If he tears it up at 4 Nations, it's because he's playing within a structure and having a defined role and playing with elite players.

 

[McRanger92]

I would do the roster a lot differently, but stylistically, the 2014 team was hockey nirvana.

They played fast and direct all over the ice. They had lots of grit and exactly the right kind of it. It wasn't physically imposing but they hounded the puck and took contact to make plays.

The puck support was immaculate. They came after you in layer after layer all over the ice. Every movement was efficient and useful.

They didn't have gamebreaking offensive talent, but the lineup was infested with guys who could handle the puck.

It wasn't grit or talent, it was both, marinated in a whole lot of speed.

The guy that most embodies this currently is Brett Berard. Cuylle is a fit. Chytil is also a really good fit. He's not MacKinnon in terms of skill or Bennett in terms of grit, but he's talented enough to make zone entries and tough enough to play real hockey. This team desperately needs at least one more center who can play in the neutral zone like Chytil. Zibanejad and Trocheck are both grenade jugglers. It doesn't have to be Connor McDavid, just somebody with good NHL hands.

Why have we not been building at team ike that? the only Rangers squad of my lifetime that didnt fully rely on the goalie to bail them out. Its also not that hard to see the team making that shift quickly. The 2014 Rangers werent exactly brimming with talent.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

This team is starting to give dark ages vibes. Maybe an injection of youth helps, maybe it doesn't. I'd honestly rather they go in the direction of a hard working, grinding team ala the Ortmeyer/Cally/Dubinsky days. The talent and skill approach is being overshadowed by laziness and shinny style defense. At least I could root harder for a team that while not as skilled, plays their ass off every night and leaves it all on the ice.

 

[Fitzy]

The rangers don’t currently have a “thing” that they are particularly apt at compared to other competitive teams from which to draw an identity from.

It really was our power play, and to a lesser degree our offense from defensemen for the last two years. This year we have neither

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Laviolette is ruining my christmas. Drury plz

 

[bhamill]

Here's what I think.
Drury is going nowhere. Dolan wants him. Get used to it.

Drury is not LOOKING to move Kakko. Kakko isn't going anywhere unless someone offers at LEAST fair value. Don't see that happening. If Kakko expresses a desire to leave, after the season, then by all means get what we can for him.

Lavi gone in the New Year if team continues like this. If he goes, or stays but utilizes Kakko better, I don't see Kakko wanting to leave.

Same for Kreider, who I have ALWAYS maintained should retire a Ranger: gone unless he and things improve. 3 5v5 points, looks like he is making no effort, showing zero passion. IF it is his back or another injury, f***ing sit for fuxsakes. Go on long term injured reserve and heal up. Otherwise I think he's gone at the TDL, the latest.

I don't see Zibs turning this around. He appears, like Kreids, to have zero passion, and very little effort to his game. Obviously he can't go anywhere if he doesn't want to. Based on his play he should be getting 3rd or 4th line minutes and PK. That's it. And that's what the coach should do. If it makes him want to waive his NMC, all the better, but either way, that's all he currently deserves. ... Maybe the young guys should start running him in practice. Maybe he will want to waive his clause, or wake up. (I'm being facetious here.)

I don't see the young core, and that includes Kakko, going anywhere, but of course if a deal that makes the team better presents itself, you've got to do it.
End of my rant.

Cuylle developed his skills. He’s still not that talented but maximizing what he can do.
There’s always room for growth which is why teams do draft size frequently.

I think his talent is underrated, but fair assessment.

If he tears it up at 4 Nations, it's because he's playing within a structure and having a defined role and playing with elite players.

Yup. Being properly utilized.

 

[McRanger92]

This team is starting to give dark ages vibes. Maybe an injection of youth helps, maybe it doesn't. I'd honestly rather they go in the direction of a hard working, grinding team ala the Ortmeyer/Cally/Dubinsky days. The talent and skill approach is being overshadowed by laziness and shinny style defense. At least I could root harder for a team that while not as skilled, plays their ass off every night and leaves it all on the ice.

Build to the strength of your roster. if we're so devoid of talent, there needs to be a commitment to defense. You can't have neither. That's how you go 3-12. Igor, Laf, Fox are here for the long haul, but they are being dragged down by circumstances.

Igor is a top goalie in the league by every metric. His contract is fair market value. He's staying, and hes not an albatross in this NHL economic climate. they need 2 minute eating, crease clearing defenseman to make his life easier. Nobody likes those players, but they are a necessary evil. Mikkola was a perfect fit and of course we let him walk in favor of Fox' buddy Lindgren, which leads me to my next point.

Fox is a Norris trophy defenseman but wear and tear is limiting him. Playing him with Lindgren has only led to more time Fox plays in the Dzone and more injuries. One of the defenseman they acquire in the coming weeks needs to be a guy capable of taking the strain off of Fox. A steady defensive guy who can skate back and retrieve the puck in his zone.

Lafreniere has a ton of talent but he needs to be put in better situations. Kreider should not be getting valuable PP minutes. We just gave Laf a 7 year deal. Kreider is old news. What are we doing here? I would also keep Laf away from Panarin the rest of this year. Let him work on his own line, at left wing, with Cuylle and Chytil. Thats a solid second line on any team.

Maximize the talent of your actual core players, and not guys in their mid-30s who will be gone in 6 months.

 

[Machinehead]

Why have we not been building at team ike that? the only Rangers squad of my lifetime that didnt fully rely on the goalie to bail them out. Its also not that hard to see the team making that shift quickly. The 2014 Rangers werent exactly brimming with talent.

The short answer is that Gorton was a moron. I'm not sure there's more to it.

He completely misidentified what made that team work, and doubled down on the issues they needed to correct.

He wanted "character," but to him that meant guys who couldn't skate. He didn't get guys that were winning battles, he got guys that visually looked like they were trying to catch up while they were losing them. That's not what character and effort is.

He kicked off an entire rebuild on the basis of "guys that look like they're trying because they have to bust a nut to keep up." You know what the biggest problem is with those guys (a problem Cuylle and Berard don't have)? No f***ing talent at all.

That forces you to use whatever grabass skill is available as a crutch, even if they're deeply flawed players. Zibanejad always was that. Kreider became that. Panarin and Trocheck to a lesser extent. The early version of Lafreniere.

You're left with a top six that can't play real hockey and a bottom six that can't play any hockey.

Gorton is with Monteal now and they're built the same way. Half the lineup is flawed talent and half the lineup is ECHL grit.

Those bullshit ass teams then overachieved and forced Drury to hitch his wagon to them way more than I would like, and probably wasted three years. I don't blame Drury. You don't survive in this business selling an ECF team. It is what it is.

Time will tell how he handles it, but it's pretty evident that Drury sees it now.

 

[McRanger92]

The short answer is that Gorton was a moron. I'm not sure there's more to it.

He completely misidentified what made that team work, and doubled down on the issues they needed to correct.

He wanted "character," but to him that meant guys who couldn't skate. He didn't get guys that were winning battles, he got guys that visually looked like they were trying to catch up while they were losing them. That's not what character and effort is.

He kicked off an entire rebuild on the basis of "guys that look like they're trying because they have to bust a nut to keep up." You know what the biggest problem is with those guys (a problem Cuylle and Berard don't have)? No f***ing talent at all.

That forces you to use whatever grabass skill is available as a crutch, even if they're deeply flawed players. Zibanejad always was that. Kreider became that. Panarin and Trocheck to a lesser extent. The early version of Lafreniere.

You're left with a top six that can't play real hockey and a bottom six that can't play any hockey.

Gorton is with Monteal now and they're built the same way. Half the lineup is flawed talent and half the lineup is ECHL grit.

Those bullshit ass teams then overachieved and forced Drury to hitch his wagon to them way more than I would like, and probably wasted three years. I don't blame Drury. You don't survive in this business selling an ECF team. It is what it is.

Time will tell how he handles it, but it's pretty evident that Drury sees it now.

Drury really needs to explore Trocheck and Kreider trades in-season. Kreider because he's exactly what a desperate contender would overpay for, and he's become redundant. Trocheck for similiar reasons, but also because his NTC is becoming an NMC this summer.

Cuylle and Berard are perfect examples of skilled grit and hard nosed play we need. They also werent top prospects. Why cant Drury turn those 2 vets into 3-4 additional young pieces who fit that mold? I think he can and absolutely should.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

I would do the roster a lot differently, but stylistically, the 2014 team was hockey nirvana.

They played fast and direct all over the ice. They had lots of grit and exactly the right kind of it. It wasn't physically imposing but they hounded the puck and took contact to make plays.

The puck support was immaculate. They came after you in layer after layer all over the ice. Every movement was efficient and useful.

They didn't have gamebreaking offensive talent, but the lineup was infested with guys who could handle the puck.

It wasn't grit or talent, it was both, marinated in a whole lot of speed.

The guy that most embodies this currently is Brett Berard. Cuylle is a fit. Chytil is also a really good fit. He's not MacKinnon in terms of skill or Bennett in terms of grit, but he's talented enough to make zone entries and tough enough to play real hockey. This team desperately needs at least one more center who can play in the neutral zone like Chytil. Zibanejad and Trocheck are both grenade jugglers. It doesn't have to be Connor McDavid, just somebody with good NHL hands.

I don't know why we got away from that recipe. Speed and/puck hounders are what we should be doing. Berard reminds me of Hagelin with more offensive skill. He's always noticeable. To a lesser extent, Brodzinski fits this mold as well.

For me the most glaring thing is the defense though. That's just going to take years to rebuild. I'm not sure we have one piece right now that's legitimate.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I would do the roster a lot differently, but stylistically, the 2014 team was hockey nirvana.

They played fast and direct all over the ice. They had lots of grit and exactly the right kind of it. It wasn't physically imposing but they hounded the puck and took contact to make plays.

The puck support was immaculate. They came after you in layer after layer all over the ice. Every movement was efficient and useful.

They didn't have gamebreaking offensive talent, but the lineup was infested with guys who could handle the puck.

It wasn't grit or talent, it was both, marinated in a whole lot of speed.

The guy that most embodies this currently is Brett Berard. Cuylle is a fit. Chytil is also a really good fit. He's not MacKinnon in terms of skill or Bennett in terms of grit, but he's talented enough to make zone entries and tough enough to play real hockey. This team desperately needs at least one more center who can play in the neutral zone like Chytil. Zibanejad and Trocheck are both grenade jugglers. It doesn't have to be Connor McDavid, just somebody with good NHL hands.

that team also had an almost flat hierarchy. it actually rolled four lines, almost evenly, with fourth liners like Boyle and Moore having preeminent roles on the PK and the PP divided up between two two units. That team was a machine because nobody got a cushier assignment than anybody else, and everybody had a meaningful role. You look at their shift length and it's every single player between 45-40 seconds. Forwards 1-9 all had 25-22 shifts a game.

Just to compare shift lengths from last years team:

2023 Panarin - 56s
2023 Trochek - 53s
2023 Lafreniere - 50s
2013 B. Richards - 50s
2023 Zibanejad - 49s
2023 Kreider - 48s
...
2013 Brassard - 44s
2013 Stepan - 44s
2023 Kakko - 44s
...
2013 Nash - 42s

Talking about shifts per game. There were 5 forwards on our team last year who averaged over 19 shifts per game. In 13-14 there were 11!

I know those margins don't seem massive but in the aggregate they're significant, and in how they hierarchize and divide up the game among the team tells two starkly different stories that are very obvious to anybody who watched both teams. I mean, who was the best forward on that 13-14 team? I think the easiest answer is Rick Nash, and that guy played almost 2mins less a game than Kreider did last year.

 

[pld459666]

These guys are more mad at a GM making smart moves than they are after getting embarrassed by Tampa after being up 2-0 and losing to Florida after being up 2-1

They are more mad at losing two terrible hockey players than they are at getting out played regularly only to be bailed out by Igor.

The fact they they are this OK with losing is the problem

They are not interested in winning, they are just here to play hockey.

I don't want that sort of player or person and if Fox falls into that definition, I want him gone as well.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Did it 18 times as a 21 year old. I'm thinking it's within the realm of possibility, but I see him rounding into more of a 25 goal scorer with proper usage and a little regular pp time.

You, my brother, are the eternal optimist. Wish I could agree with you.

 

[Machinehead]

Drury really needs to explore Trocheck and Kreider trades in-season. Kreider because he's exactly what a desperate contender would overpay for, and he's become redundant. Trocheck for similiar reasons, but also because his NTC is becoming an NMC this summer.

Cuylle and Berard are perfect examples of skilled grit and hard nosed play we need. They also werent top prospects. Why cant Drury turn those 2 vets into 3-4 additional young pieces who fit that mold? I think he can and absolutely should.

I'm coming around on dealing Trocheck but I want it to be for somebody with better hands. Go in a more skill direction with that spot. Our centers handle the puck like they're trying to open a coconut.

With a shrewd trade, I think there's another Brassard out there. Hell, Brassard had some edge too. I'm not expecting Eichel. A 50-60 point center who can play hockey. It's out there somewhere.

With the position we're in, it might by a three lines by committee like the 2014 team was, unless we get lucky with somebody. And hell, maybe that's not good enough. I'd take a competitive team THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD(!!!!), plays satisfying hockey, and maybe wins some rounds. The rest is luck.

Just stop doing this.

 

[Machinehead]

that team also had an almost flat hierarchy. it actually rolled four lines, almost evenly, with fourth liners like Boyle and Moore having preeminent roles on the PK and the PP divided up between two two units. That team was a machine because nobody got a cushier assignment than anybody else, and everybody had a meaningful role. You look at their shift length and it's every single player between 45-40 seconds. Forwards 1-9 all had 25-22 shifts a game.

Just to compare shift lengths from last years team:

2023 Panarin - 56s
2023 Trochek - 53s
2023 Lafreniere - 50s
2013 B. Richards - 50s
2023 Zibanejad - 49s
2023 Kreider - 48s
...
2013 Brassard - 44s
2013 Stepan - 44s
2023 Kakko - 44s
...
2013 Nash - 42s

Talking about shifts per game. There were 5 forwards on our team last year who averaged over 19 shifts per game. In 13-14 there were 11!

I know those margins don't seem massive but in the aggregate they're significant, and in how they hierarchize and divide up the game among the team tells two starkly different stories that are very obvious to anybody who watched both teams. I mean, who was the best forward on that 13-14 team? I think the easiest answer is Rick Nash, and that guy played almost 2mins less a game than Kreider did last year.

Poor Rick Nash probably didn't get used as much as he should have, and people criticized his counting stats because of it.

The guy was a pro and didn't say boo to a f***ing goose about it. Compare that to the guys complaining about ice team this year.

And I know people liked Kakko speaking up because they just want something, but you better go out there and dunk on people if you speak up. Kakko falling all over the ice last night was not the follow-up he needed.

 

[Mr Mxmzptlk]

They went to the ECF last year, had tons of come from behind wins, were absolute gamers all season long despite their flaws. The locker room was fine. This country club bullshit comes from idiot fans and has no basis in reality.

Do you honestly believe that kind of play was sustainable? If you have to have "tons of come from behind wins" you are not playing good hockey. This team got as far as it did due to god-like goaltending and the power play. As we have seen, teams are taking far fewer penalties as well as using the one method that has given us fits for years: speed and heavy forechecking. As for the lockerroom, of course it was "fine" -- players wanted things their way and were having coaches fired to get it.

 

[McRanger92]

I'm coming around on dealing Trocheck but I want it to be for somebody with better hands. Go in a more skill direction with that spot. Our centers handle the puck like they're trying to open a coconut.

With a shrewd trade, I think there's another Brassard out there. Hell, Brassard had some edge too. I'm not expecting Eichel. A 50-60 point center who can play hockey. It's out there somewhere.

With the position we're in, it might by a three lines by committee like the 2014 team was, unless we get lucky with somebody. And hell, maybe that's not good enough. I'd take a competitive team THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD(!!!!), plays satisfying hockey, and maybe wins some rounds. The rest is luck.

Just stop doing this.

2013-14 Derick Brassard would, no bullshit, change everything for this current team (much like he idi in 12-13 when he came in). Talented guy who thrived on a team that needed guys who raise their level of play in big spots. These are the intangibles and toughness (mental and physical) that the team is missing. It doesnt matter that Brass was 5'10, no one pushed him or that rangers team around. Drury should be able to identify undervalued guys on other rosters who fit that mold, because he's done it well in house.

 

[will1066]

Do something, Chris. Make a move. I'm tired.

 

[Filip Chytil]

At the time we wanted 3 & 5 or 3 & Tkachuk, was the rumor. Imagine getting an offer where Stutzle, Tkachuk or even Sanderson was only part of the return for Laffy now? Franchise is genuinely cursed. Makes you wonder what someone did to deserve this.

If we dealt #1 for 3 and 5 that year, with our luck we would've taken Drysdale and Holtz