Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[NYR Viper]

I think we all are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Take the path of least resistance and then re-evaluate. Lindgren. Smith. Vesey. Kreider. That's HUGE change following Trouba out as well. Those are no-brainers and there will be futures coming back. Scour the league for guys who play the way Drury and his staff want the team to play and good buy-low candidates or guys the team can take on and be paid to do so for this year to help teams with their cap space. More assets.

All in all, this should bring back 4-5 draft picks (with a minimum of one 1st rounder) and a couple of prospects.

When it comes to the off-season, re-evaluate based on how the young players play and how the veterans rebound. I think that is also when you approach Panarin to see if he wants to play somewhere else and evaluate the type of season Miller had as a whole. That's another possibly (2) huge moves, beyond anything they do in UFA

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Google "Mika Zibanejad vegan" and enlighten us with all of the evidence you'll find.

Again, this board made that up just to shit on him, and when I accuse some posters of just shitting on players they go "what? Who me?"

The act is old.

Him eating something that is pretending to be something that it's not, much like he pretends he's a good hockey player or DJ.

 

[LokiDog]

Of course it's about needing someone to hate.

I'm not speaking for everyone on the board when I say that, but there's plenty of people on this board whose entire shtick is hating good players to annoy people.

Your shtick is posting gifs so that doesn't include you.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

and we’ll get Jumbo* a fake Callahan jersey

Who are you?

 

[Machinehead]

|￣￣￣￣￣￣ |
| PROVOROV |
| SUCKS. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| ＿＿＿＿＿__|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

 

[DanielBrassard]

Yeah, that really isn’t it. Some of us simply do not believe this roster CAN be salvaged and that trying to do so is only going to leave us in mediocre limbo with no clear direction or path to improve. I have ZERO faith that this team can cut the deadweight necessary and obtain - whether through trading that dead weight or FA - the pieces needed to be a winner. Once I am positive that that’s my feelings about the team, it doesn’t MATTER how good a Fox or Shesterkin or Panarin is. There’s no hate. It’s simply my belief that the team isn’t going to win with them regardless of how good they are individually. Therefore, I would RATHER trade them when their value is at its highest and accept that NO version of the current team is going to be molded into a winner, and thus we should cash out on ALL of our assets, ESPECIALLY the most valuable ones and start fresh. Do I expect it to happen? Of course not. Not in NYC. Is it still wholeheartedly what I believe to be the correct course or action to ACTUALLY building a FUTURE winner? Yes.

It has nothing to do with whipping boys or needing someone to hate. I simply don’t want to attempt a shitty “retool” STILL suck 3 years down the road and THEN be trading a broken down 30 year old Fox who has 60% of the value he has today, which we could have converted into a future cornerstone - especially when we have virtually NO other realistic avenue to acquiring one. Fox WAS a cornerstone. He can’t be a FUTURE cornerstone when we won’t be ready to compete until he’s nearly 30.

I wouldnt necessarily say they couldn't compete relatively soon. With liquidating some of the core or most of it and the amount of cap space and assets they could create it is not out of the question they could turn it around pretty quickly. Probably 2026 is the earliest but it won't have to be a long teardown and Fox will still be elite by then I would think.

 

[alkurtz]

Scapegoat Kreider all you want. Someone needs to be the focus of your dislike. I am an unabashed CK fan. What he has meant to this team is incalculable. But he is 33 years old and likely playing with a sore back. Nothing is more debilitating than a sore back. Does he need to have his minutes and role reduced? Yes...certainly. Age comes to all athletes, some sooner than later. Very, very few players, in any sport, go out at the top. For all, it must be a frightening and depressing process when your body can't do what once could do so easily (especially when you are only in your early thirties, in real life that's still young, certainly not "old.". And face it....this guy has overachieved during his career...,made himself into something special.

Alone, he is not the problem. To expect him to be "the answer" and to turn into the player he was a few years ago is unrealistic. To say he doesn't care is beyond absurd. His deteriorating play is a part of the problem, certainly. That the team as a whole is self-destructing has magnified his decline and is not allowing him to age gracefully.

I know it is normal for younger fans to condemn older players and want them gone. Well, I am an older fan but I too want younger players to play more. As much as I think he has been a fantastic player, I have no issue with trading him as long as it's for future talent.

But to say he is anything but part of our larger issue is just not realistic. To say that he doesn't care is not looking at reality. To think that what is happening to this team doesn't eat at him, is ridiculous.
His time here might be near an end, but what he has accomplished, has made him one of my all-time favorite Rangers (and I go back to Camile Henry, whose PP record Kreider is still chasing).

As a fan, it hurts to see favorite players age. I can't imagine what it is like to be that player. If his time is up...so be it. But until that day comes, I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. To expect him to lift the team on his shoulders, is not going to happen. None of us knows what truly goes on in the locker room, at practice, at team meals, on the plane. For all we know, he might be trying to encourage younger players, he has always been a mentor, to have them keep the heads high. You don't know. I don't know. No problem with him on the 4th line. If he can no longer do the job, that might be where he belongs. But I will not disparage him. He's meant to much to the team and me as a fan.

 

[SA16]

I wouldnt necessarily say they couldn't compete relatively soon. With liquidating some of the core or most of it and the amount of cap space and assets they could create it is not out of the question they could turn it around pretty quickly. Probably 2026 is the earliest but it won't have to be a long teardown and Fox will still be elite by then I would think.

The Caps just went from bad to one of the best teams in the league so far, despite being told they were bad, and bringing in "lazy, locker-room cancer, PLD. Nobody, actually knows how quickly things can turn around and to act like it is an impossibility is lazy analysis.

 

[Machinehead]

I wouldnt necessarily say they couldn't compete relatively soon. With liquidating some of the core or most of it and the amount of cap space and assets they could create it is not out of the question they could turn it around pretty quickly. Probably 2026 is the earliest but it won't have to be a long teardown and Fox will still be elite by then I would think.

I still would like to see what this team looks like without the worst offenders.

We haven't even gotten there with Trouba yet because his actual replacement is hurt and butthole like Mackey and Mancini went in instead, which nobody said would be better.

Let it cook.

 

[LokiDog]

The Caps just went from bad to one of the best teams in the league so far, despite being told they were bad, and bringing in "lazy, locker-room cancer, PLD. Nobody, actually knows how quickly things can turn around and to act like it is an impossibility is lazy analysis.

Please, go put money on the Caps to even make the conference finals. The goal isn’t to be the Caps. The goal is to finally build a team that’s going to get it done in the post season. You think the Caps are a serious contender? Not just to be contrarian or play devil’s advocate, but genuinely? I’ll put $100 down right now they don’t make it beyond the second round, if that.

 

[Mike in Houston]

|￣￣￣￣￣￣ |
| PROVOROV |
| SUCKS. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| ＿＿＿＿＿__|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

|￣￣￣￣￣￣ |
| MIKA |
| SUCKS. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| ＿＿＿＿＿__|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

This is fun!

 

[Bob Richards]

I think trading our young, elite, franchise defenseman on a good contract for reasons is a bad idea and I’d prefer if they tried literally anything else.

 

[Machinehead]

|￣￣￣￣￣￣ |
| MIKA |
| SUCKS. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| ＿＿＿＿＿__|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

This is fun!

Don't steal my gimmick

 

[SA16]

Please, go put money on the Caps to even make the conference finals. The goal isn’t to be the Caps. The goal is to finally build a team that’s going to get it done in the post season. You think the Caps are a serious contender? Not just to be contrarian or play devil’s advocate, but genuinely? I’ll put $100 down right now they don’t make it beyond the second round, if that.

If you are saying the goal is to do a complete rebuild to become a potential Stanley Cup Contender, a strategy that rarely yields results in less than 8 years, I am going to have to disagree about that being a good strategy and that being the goal.

Tell me why the Caps are not a serious contender? Because they weren't supposed to be? The lead the East in points. Their best player has missed the last month. They have youngish guys like Strome, McMichael, Protas who have improved greatly. They have the 6th best xG%, a decent PP, and a very good PK. So why are they not a a contender?

 

[DanielBrassard]

I still would like to see what this team looks like without the worst offenders.

We haven't even gotten there with Trouba yet because his actual replacement is hurt and butthole like Mackey and Mancini went in instead, which nobody said would be better.

Let it cook.

That's really not unreasonable, I mean on paper if you just replaced Mika with a legitimate #1 center and got a decent 2nd pairing LD on paper the team looks so much better even if you do nothing else. Much easier said than done obviously,and getting rid of Zibanejad is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I'm partial to taking a step back and hoping they can convince Mika to waive somehow. They need to replenish draft capital and create cap flexibility to strike over the next couple of seasons

 

[Machinehead]

Please, go put money on the Caps to even make the conference finals. The goal isn’t to be the Caps. The goal is to finally build a team that’s going to get it done in the post season. You think the Caps are a serious contender? Not just to be contrarian or play devil’s advocate, but genuinely? I’ll put $100 down right now they don’t make it beyond the second round, if that.

I just think we should have a vision of what we want the team to be, see the pieces we have now, make informed decisions on those pieces, and aggressively pursue the vision based on what's missing and the assets we have to spend.

That vision, for most people, includes an elite defenseman, so trading away the one you already have is moving backwards.

Burning it down just because it's flammable is Sabres team building.

 

[eco's bones]

yeah, but know what is even a lot worse?
paying him the full pop 8.5 and getting nothing
at least Raty, Juulsen and to lesser extent Forbert are useful.

Half a bad cap loaf > than a full one


In one technical sense you appear correct. But in another more ultimate one, I am.

Every team is subordinate to the 'we' that is its fan base, b'c without fans, no financial support, no pro hockey industry, no team.

We voice our approval/displeasure.
These are our votes.
They are real, not imaginary, even if we are not running the show
WE DO "have ... bearing as to how the Rangers conduct business" b'c without our support, there is no rangers

YOU don't get to judge me and tell me I need help.
Smartass wannabe, physican heal thyself





Kooky or not
my track record overall proves I was correct on a lot of positions taken, including as to playing Nieves as pivot and sliding Zib to 1RW

but hey, it's a free country
those who wish to be close minded, feel free to you do you

The problem of the 'we' argument is there's not even that broad of a consensus from the fan base of what exactly to do. Also 'we're' not in a room or on a phone trying to work a trade and fielding various offers. We don't get to see or judge that. We may be super interested but we're still outsiders to the real process of how whatever happens gets done. You can say trade these three to such and such team for this or that return but that doesn't mean at all that Drury or the other GM are going to do it. All it takes is one of them to say 'no' anyway and your idea falls flat.....and you can after the fact say 'I was right' all you want but if nothing ends up happening what are you right about?

Also I truly truly have doubts that the Rangers are worrying themselves as much as you may think over ticket or merch sales. f***ing Dolan is an oligarch....a billionaire. There is no end to the greed of at least most such types and I don't think he really gives a f*** about us or there's much that any given individual is going to do that's going to make him care. And you or I or we in the entirety of the Rangers HF community could all get together and boycott all his shit and I'm kind of thinking he'll be 'so what' and there will be more than enough fans who will still show up and buy the merch. We're not voting for anything.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It's incredibly enlightening to see how many people on here know exactly what's going on in that room. Young guy vs old guy rivalry, he's a quitter, he's a cancer, his wife stinks, guys trying to get the GM fired, guys purposely sucking (like Reilly Smith came here in his first year and decided to not try to spite the coach). I understand the frustration but some of you need to go outside and get some fresh air and stop tying your well being and happiness solely on the fortunes of a hockey team.

This fanbase sucks, a bunch of whiny entitled dispshits who wouldn't know a hockey stick from a pogo stick, and this place has become a giant hell hole of anger.

 

[SA16]

That's really not unreasonable, I mean on paper if you just replaced Mika with a legitimate #1 center and got a decent 2nd pairing LD on paper the team looks so much better even if you do nothing else. Much easier said than done obviously,and getting rid of Zibanejad is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I'm partial to taking a step back and hoping they can convince Mika to waive somehow. They need to replenish draft capital and create cap flexibility to strike over the next couple of seasons

I would like to see the defense with Ruhwedel and Vaakanainen in and Lindgren and Jones out. Replacing Trouba with Mancini/Mackey was obviously always going to be a downgrade because despite how bad people make Trouba out to be he is not as bad as they say (still a good move though given they were somehow able to get out of that contract for positive value).

 

[smoneil]

Kreider -
I did explain in overview, you simply do not accept my answers.
That he has only 1G in last 13 or whatev games is consistent w/my appraisal that the rest of the team is dragging him down, not the other way around.
Revelation of back issues, not to be dismissed, is new and disconcerting as it comes with the territory. Fortunately my understanding is with treatment he can manage and continue.

Look at it this way. Either I'm right or I'm wrong.
If I'm right Kreider has game, he has value. We can deal him now or deal him later. There is no urgency to dealing him now when the most cancerous guy is zib, and moving him and others should be the move, not Kreider.
If I'm wrong, Kreider will have min value. Other clubs will not buy due to rep. They will gamble that the issue is the back and it can be overcome. But by definition, CK having no-min value presumes his back etc situation is so severe that he cannot expect best case rebound scenario. In such event, any return for him is minimal. Ergo, best option is hold CK, deal older vets, reassess.

Zib
We have a deal for Zib where it is plausible he will waive.
But we need to have real expectations.
Peeps saying we are going to get dollar/top dollar are wrong
there has already been too much damage for too long for anything that gives us a good return. We must accept this is addition by subtraction, and bite the bullet.
Posters here insisting on keeping this arrogant sleeze b'c they can't let him go otherwise w/o a substantial return need to get real, and admit I am right.

Zib - I said give him away cheap to VAN not for JT Miller [unrealistic] but to give VAN depth while JT was away.
Now that he has returned while that is not the same impetus [other than if JT has to suddenly get up and go once again], adding zib for depth works for nucks
Howev, he is a head case and has to be extremely discounted.
This also works for us because taking a min return is a slap to zibs face

zib max reduced to 4.25
for
Raty, Juulsen, Descharnais + if they are ok, also Forbot

Desch is huge useless pylon zero mobility thru next season
Jettisoning him works for them and removes bad cap
Raty is ok+ for bottom 6 pivot but they can short term surrender in this circumstance
Juulsen playing surprisingly well but is bottom 6
Forbot also ok but expiring
thing here is can they pick up cheap Ds after this deal

Zib at half they can live w/b'c at 4.25, can retain further and deal to bottom feeder if nec
Zib waives to avoid all this and play w/EPetterssen

Again Zib HAS TO go before Kreider to break Zib
THAT IS NON NEGOTIABLE

Bern, this whole thing is bonkers. It's a logic pretzel to get you to where you want to be (pretending that there is any justification for not trading Kreider).

On Kreider-- Your argument is that no team will give value because of a vague rumor about a back injury, so we shouldn't trade him because he can rehab this supposed back injury. That's absurd. Kreider has one more season left after this one. He can easily be retained down to ~$4m per. He's scored between 40 and 50 goals for the last three seasons. He's got LOADS of playoff experience, most recently playing hero-ball with the hat trick against Carolina. Teams would EASILY give up a 1st and a very good prospect for two playoff runs with Kreider.

And again--his replacement is already on the roster. Say for the sake of argument that you also move Panarin for a haul (a concept I'm not opposed to). You still have Laf, Kakko, Cuylle, Perrault, Berard, Othmann, Sykora. We are miles deep on LWers and LW prospects. It makes ZERO logical sense to hold onto Kreider unless your love for the player is blinding you.

Similarly, I think your hatred for Zib is also blinding you. I also think he's a massive problem, but he's not a moveable problem. He has a much higher cap hit and 5x the term that Kreider has. NOBODY is going to trade for Zibanejad unless he rebounds and/or has fewer years left on his contract. You thought Vancouver would take on 5 years of a bad cap hit to cover for a player being out for a MONTH? That doesn't even happen in video games. You think the Rangers, who rarely retain, will saddle themselves with a nearly $5m dead cap hit for five years? Never in a million years.

The ONLY way for the Rangers to dump Zibanejad is to hope that he'll waive his NMC, retain on his contract, and pay a premium to the other team. And...where does that leave us? With two second line centers (Trocheck and Chytil---one of whom is an injury waiting to happen) and a whole bunch of 4th line centers. Nobody trades top 6 centers. Could we get one in FA? Maybe, but with Kreider's cap hit still on the books and half of Zibanejad's cap hit still on the books, we won't be able to afford one. For the short term, it's in the team's best interest to try and fix Zibanejad. It's not because I want them to do that. I've wanted Zib gone since last season, when he had his back turned to the OT GWG against, because he took himself out of the play to complain to the ref. We just don't have any other logical choice.

In a perfect world, we would let a player like Kreider retire a Ranger. The world isn't perfect. They need to move on from as much of the old core as possible to re-stock the prospect pool for the next core (which, unlike last time, with the letter, much of the next core is already in place).

 

[Machinehead]

That's really not unreasonable, I mean on paper if you just replaced Mika with a legitimate #1 center and got a decent 2nd pairing LD on paper the team looks so much better even if you do nothing else. Much easier said than done obviously,and getting rid of Zibanejad is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I'm partial to taking a step back and hoping they can convince Mika to waive somehow. They need to replenish draft capital and create cap flexibility to strike over the next couple of seasons

I'm definitely here for taking this year "off."

It adds incentive for the more entrenched guys to move on and ups our draft pick in a year where it's the right time for that.

If we pick, I don't know 10th(?) and get another Perreault at center, and that guy is ready to take the ice opening night 2026, you can't tell me we couldn't be competitive that year. The idea that tanking until another Crosby is coming out of the Q is the only way doesn't add up.

Minnesota has a really good young team and they didn't bottom out. Rossi went 9th and Boldy went 12th. They just didn't act stupid and give up 1st's at the deadline to maybe win a round.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Bern, this whole thing is bonkers.

You literally could've stopped there. I didn't read any further & I still believe you 1000%

 

[Siddi]

If you are saying the goal is to do a complete rebuild to become a potential Stanley Cup Contender, a strategy that rarely yields results in less than 8 years, I am going to have to disagree about that being a good strategy and that being the goal.

Tell me why the Caps are not a serious contender? Because they weren't supposed to be? The lead the East in points. Their best player has missed the last month. They have youngish guys like Strome, McMichael, Protas who have improved greatly. They have the 6th best xG%, a decent PP, and a very good PK. So why are they not a a contender?

Because in some peoples minds. Being a contender means that you have to actually win the cup.

 

[SA16]

Because in some peoples minds. Being a contender means that you have to actually win the cup.

If you asked me if I would rather have 9 terrible/bad years and one guaranteed cup or 10 straight years of making the playoffs as a wild card with a low (but of course non-zero chance) of winning the cup I would sign up for option B every time.

 

[Boris Zubov]

If you asked me if I would rather have 9 terrible/bad years and one guaranteed cup or 10 straight years of making the playoffs as a wild card with a low (but of course non-zero chance) of winning the cup I would sign up for option B every time.

Many of us would choose the opposite.