Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XIII (Nanaki edition)

[IDvsEGO]

That you know of.

Lest we forget that I see the deleted posts on this forum.

You’ve stepped in I think last week or the week before because it got pretty egregious.

Do I think miller is a top 5 defenseman? Absolutely not.

He’s also a lot better than what we’d be able to get for his spot for what he’s likely to command.
He’s capable of playing in that top pair role, he’s not gonna put up tons of points because that’s not his game. He’s more defensive.
He’s physical in a very different way than Trouba, watch his battles below the net, he’s forcing players in directions that they don’t want to go, he isn’t pushed around and he’s controlling a forward without getting a penalty.

Those are defensive abilities that no one but Fox can do.

 

[RangersFan]

I would move KAM+ for a good 2C option. I would start to transition Mika to wing and plan around not having Chytil at all when he inevitably gets hurt again. This team is so thin on C when Fil is hurt and Mika being bad. I honestly would give up a decent package for solid C option.

 

[Guyute]

Why we would replace Chytil by trading for a wing always escaped me anyway.

Zegras is better at center than at wing.

I'd still consider trading for him, because I don't trust Chytil to stay healthy AT ALL.

 

[TominNC]

Yet no one here is claiming Trouba or Lindgren are anything greater than what they are. Again, this isnt whataboutism.

2nd best is debateable....most nights this season Fox, Schneider, and Jones have been better. Mancini isnt far behind....thats my eyetest. He has the potential to be better and we have seen it in the past. There is nothing consistent in his game at this moment.

We can disagree and debate these things. To infer that color of skin is any sort of reason for other opinions here....in this forum of fans....is disingenuous and outright insulting to every single fan in this forum. Do better....rack your brain to think of any other reason people might disagree with you.

Maybe your eyes lie

 

[Flan the incredible]

If you move Lindgren you do it to a team that has playoff aspirations.
I think Boston is realizing they don’t.

I think Detroit is the answer. Veleno for Lindgren.
Young center, has some room to grow.
Could be a top 6 answer.
Detroit could look at Lindgren to slot defenders into the right spots, and give Seider a real partner.

I agree and doubt Boston would take Lindgren but I am not against your Detroit trade. Personally I would love a pick for Lindgren that could be used to whomever they get as an upgrade. I can see a team trade for him on the basis that they sign him to an extension. No idea who that would be though.

 

[TominNC]

Lindgren brings Fox down. Miller doesn’t. Together Miller-Fox is a very good pair.

 

[McRanger92]

That you know of.

Lest we forget that I see the deleted posts on this forum.

In this particular instance, that's how it was brought up.

 

[bobbop]

Trocheck will bring back some value. His numbers have been slipping a little bit. Mika isn't the only problem. Maybe the other teams won't notice the decline.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5919640/2024/11/13/new-york-rangers-nhl-season-analysis/

Trading Trocheck now with his performance and (what is becoming a) sweetheart contract for the Rangers would be a huge mistake. He’s a bargain signing that will be an asset for years to come.

 

[egelband]

Kakko should be tried at Center. He has all the tools to be a pretty good center. He has a small amount experience playing Center in Liiga. He took only 23 draws last year but was 56.5%. He has the size, strength, responsibility, among other attributes to be effective. It would open up options for how you approach potential acquisition targets.

RE: Crosby

Yes he would cost quite a bit. Retention would certainly be needed. But at 50% retained they would be able to fit him and still be able to add a veteran defenseman. They could move different salaries around. 1st, 2nd, Othmann, and another prospect to get the dialogue started. Crosby between Cuylle and Kakko would be a solid, solid line. Or Trocheck there with Crosby between Laf and Panarin.

RE: BOSTON

They are a disaster right now. It was only a matter of time. Marchand is on an expiring contract. That would be my first call. Charlie Coyle. Frederic. There are guys there that could help this group.

I reckon the price for Crosby isn’t that high tbh. If he is willing to be traded he’ll give Pitt a number of teams he’s willing to go to and they’ll make it happen. It won’t be a massive bidding war. I could see it costing futures like GP and Fortescue and a first. Something like that. A high price but not exorbitant.

 

[egelband]

Then what is the injury that’s keeping him out?

Was wondering that too. Hoping it’s not just word play. Was it an *almost* concussion? Or was it a knee sprain? I guess it doesn’t matter to *us* in the long run if he comes back strong in Calgary.

 

[NYR Viper]

I’m more concerned with Miller’s next contract demands than I am his play right now. If he’s looking for $7m+ then he should be dealt. He’s a nice compliment to Fox and if the defense was built correctly, they’d have depth behind them.

In saying that, his defensive gaffs and braindead plays are a concern after this long in the league

 

[effen]

I don't think anyone has criticized Miller's body language or faces. I have personally repeatedly criticized Fox's atrocious mannerisms this year. Because he's f***ing deserved it.

Miller's been responsible for a gobsmacking amount of the goals against when he's been on ice. That's the tension. That 90% of the time he lets Fox be God on iceskates so they have good fancy stats just underlines have negative Lindgren was with him. It doesn't say much about Miller, who at best is just kinda there this year.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I don't think anyone has criticized Miller's body language or faces. I have personally repeatedly criticized Fox's atrocious mannerisms this year. Because he's f***ing deserved it.

Miller's been responsible for a gobsmacking amount of the goals against when he's been on ice. That's the tension. That 90% of the time he lets Fox be God on iceskates so they have good fancy stats just underlines have negative Lindgren was with him. It doesn't say much about Miller, who at best is just kinda there this year.

I mean thats exactly what someone else did. (criticizing his body language).

Miller has 8 takeaways and 14 giveaways. ( 13 in the defensive zone)
Schneider has 2 takeaways and 20 giveaways. (17 in the defensive zone)

Miller 31 hits
Schneider 20

This is not a slight to Schneider. I like schneider, and think he's in our top 4 for a very long time.

This is pointing out, people don't seem to realize Miller is not a bad defenseman.
Some of it our style of play, outside of our bottom 6, our forwards are absolutely terrible at doing both, creating outlets for passes, and also helping defensively to break the puck out.
Some of it is just Miller making bad mistakes.

But absolutely NO ONE in this thread is attacking Schneider for his defensive play. And yet there are the numbers.

So yes, I do think there's an bias against Miller due to the color of his skin. Some people might be aware that they do it, some might not be. The first group can go F themselves, the second maybe should just take a look at why they're doing this.

 

[LokiDog]

I think Miller is still too young to give up on his athletic gifts. Yes, this looks like a bad year for him, but overall he has been good each year for his age. This is the time we start expecting to see consistency and some of the wrinkles being ironed out, but 20 bad games isn’t enough for me to close the book. Hedman - who K’Andre will never be, but similarly is a giant, gifted Dman - didn’t start really putting up big seasons until he was 25-26. Yes, he was already putting together very strong seasons at 23ish, but Miller is 24 and doesn’t have the same pedigree as Hedman. I still believe he’s got very solid #3 potential or the ability to be a very strong compliment on the top pair with a guy like Fox. He reminds me a lot of Mattias Ekholm. He will probably have his best years around 27-30 years old. I don’t want to overpay him, but maybe a down season from him is a god send in terms of getting him locked up long term at a better AAV. Personally, I don’t think Miller is untouchable by a long shot, but I wouldn’t be shopping him just to shop him. If he’s moved he should still be viewed as a very valuable asset and only as part of a package for a very genuine upgrade to our lineup.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I’m more concerned with Miller’s next contract demands than I am his play right now. If he’s looking for $7m+ then he should be dealt. He’s a nice compliment to Fox and if the defense was built correctly, they’d have depth behind them.

In saying that, his defensive gaffs and braindead plays are a concern after this long in the league

I think those are all reasonable takes.

I'd love to keep him but I dont want to give him more than 7. I think Slavin's previous contract is actually a great comp for him adjusted for increased cap. That would be a little under 6m per year.

I think Miller is still too young to give up on his athletic gifts. Yes, this looks like a bad year for him, but overall he has been good each year for his age. This is the time we start expecting to see consistency and some of the wrinkles being ironed out, but 20 bad games isn’t enough for me to close the book. Hedman - who K’Andre will never be, but similarly is a giant, gifted Dman - didn’t start really putting up big seasons until he was 25-26. Yes, he was already putting together very strong seasons at 23ish, but Miller is 24 and doesn’t have the same pedigree as Hedman. I still believe he’s got very solid #3 potential or the ability to be a very strong compliment on the top pair with a guy like Fox. He reminds me a lot of Mattias Ekholm. He will probably have his best years around 27-30 years old. I don’t want to overpay him, but maybe a down season from him is a god send in terms of getting him locked up long term at a better AAV. Personally, I don’t think Miller is untouchable by a long shot, but I wouldn’t be shopping him just to shop him. If he’s moved he should still be viewed as a very valuable asset and only as part of a package for a very genuine upgrade to our lineup.

Are we comparing Miller to a 2nd overall pick?
I also dont think we're ever going to see any kind of legit offense from Miller. He is far more of a defensive defenseman, which is one of the reasons that he works well with fox.

 

[LokiDog]

I think those are all reasonable takes.

I'd love to keep him but I dont want to give him more than 7. I think Slavin's previous contract is actually a great comp for him adjusted for increased cap. That would be a little under 6m per year.


Are we comparing Miller to a 2nd overall pick?
I also dont think we're ever going to see any kind of legit offense from Miller. He is far more of a defensive defenseman, which is one of the reasons that he works well with fox.

Well, I said he will never be Hedman and the entire rest of my post was essentially advocating for Miller. The only reason I used Hedman as a comp was ginormous size and physical tools and how long it took - even for a #2 - to truly hit their stride/peak. I believe that moving Miller is a mistake unless his contract is unreasonable or he’s moved in a genuine blockbuster package. So I think we’re on the same side in this discussion?

 

[IDvsEGO]

Well, I said he will never be Hedman and the entire rest of my post was essentially advocating for Miller. The only reason I used Hedman as a comp was ginormous size and physical tools and how long it took - even for a #2 - to truly hit their stride/peak. I believe that moving Miller is a mistake unless his contract is unreasonable or he’s moved in a genuine blockbuster package. So I think we’re on the same side in this discussion?

Sure. We kinda are. I just don’t love the comp.
Again Slavic to me is the better comp.

 

[LokiDog]

Sure. We kinda are. I just don’t love the comp.
Again Slavic to me is the better comp.

I wasn’t comparing the types of players they are. I was comparing very large athletically gifted D men potentially taking loner to truly figure it out and become consistent, perhaps due to their immense size and over reliance on athletic gifts that worked at lower levels but require some adjusting and learning at the NHL level. It was never about Miller and Hedman being comparable players. It was about really big, physically gifted players learning to not rely solely on their athleticism and size at this level and how it may take longer than usual.

 

[effen]

But absolutely NO ONE in this thread is attacking Schneider for his defensive play. And yet there are the numbers.

???????????????????

K'Andre Miller is -4 in 16 games
Braden Schneider is +14 in 16 games.

You are *way* down a rabbit hole.

 

[RangersSince11]

Yes it's true the stats don't backup Miller. In terms of actual goals. I would argue actually that Lindgren get's a lot of underserved hate when he's been on the ice for 5 goals for and 5 goals against this year.

On Evolving Hockey's GAR model Miller ranks well below Schneider and even Lindgren. Both this year and last year. I guess analytics are racist too.

 

[noncents]

Yes it's true the stats don't backup Miller. In terms of actual goals. I would argue actually that Lindgren get's a lot of underserved hate when he's been on the ice for 5 goals for and 5 goals against this year.

On Evolving Hockey's GAR model Miller ranks well below Schneider and even Lindgren. Both this year and last year. I guess analytics are racist too.

man good thing you made this account today to deliver this crucial message.

 

[UnSandvich]

man good thing you made this account today to deliver this crucial message.

Maybe they're someone who got banned for the racist posts Machinehead mentioned.

 

[bhamill]

Miller is a frustrating player because the parts of his game, his talents, his attributes are more than the sum of the parts. You look at his physical attributes, his athletic ability, and his skill and then you look at his 2pts (3 now), his glaring (if not extremely numerous) giveaways and his -4, while playing regularly now with one of the very best defensive partners in the league, and you are underwhelmed. The good news is he’s still only 24, and big Dmen tend to take the longest to reach their potential. (As someone else pointed out)
Does he deserve a bunch of hate? Of course not. Is it unreasonable to be frustrated with HIS game (as opposed to he and Fox as a PAIR)? Of course not.

 

[noncents]

Miller is a frustrating player because the parts of his game, his talents, his attributes are more than the sum of the parts. You look at his physical attributes, his athletic ability, and his skill and then you look at his 2pts (3 now), his glaring (if not extremely numerous) giveaways and his -4, while playing regularly now with one of the very best defensive partners in the league, and you are underwhelmed. The good news is he’s still only 24, and big Dmen tend to take the longest to reach their potential. (As someone else pointed out)
Does he deserve a bunch of hate? Of course not. Is it unreasonable to be frustrated with HIS game (as opposed to he and Fox as a PAIR)? Of course not.

as i said, the issue is expectation.

you expect miller to be something he's not, so you can't evaluate his play outside of that lens. that lens magnifies mistakes - which ever player makes - and obfuscates strong play.

 

[bhamill]

as i said, the issue is expectation.

you expect miller to be something he's not, so you can't evaluate his play outside of that lens. that lens magnifies mistakes - which ever player makes - and obfuscates strong play.

Part of the issue, yes. But the 3pts, and other problems are real too. Just magnified by the expectations/frustration.