Roster Building Thread - Part XII

[Lion Hound]

5 Preseason games and 2 Rookie Series into 2024/25 season and to me...The below is starting to already look much different then what I initially anticipated. Specifically #4, #9, and especially #11.

Only a couple of posters even mentioned Mancini prior to camp. Maybe the best pre-season performance I can remember for any NYR defenseman. Loving what we have seen from this kid so far. Seems to have a super high Hockey IQ, and I love that this kid doesnt give up on plays. No sure how this will pan out being Jones has also been tremendous in the preseason, but I really want to see the Rangers give this kid a shot.

Going into Camp I was high on Edstrom after we got small looks at him last season. He has been great in the preseason and out of the forward group he to me is the player that stands out the most as being NHL ready. A packed roster limits space here for this team but even w/out the Vesey injury this kid pushed the pace to make this teams opening night roster.

Im a believer in Jones, because what he has done thus far is consistently made plays that are on a higher level then the rest of the D, including players that are already penciled in. Initially i had a lot of doubts about a 5'11 offensively minded dman when the club already has another 5'11 Norris caliber dman in Fox...but Jones is showing that this can work. This depth is huge for the Rangers.



Rangers Summer 2024 Prospect Ranking

1. Gabe Perreault (F)
2. Brennan Othmann (F)
3. Brett Berard (F) +2
4. Zac Jones (D) +3
5. EJ Emery (D)
6. Adam Sykora (F) -2
7. Dylan Garand (G)
8. Matt Rempe (F) +5
9. Adam Edstrom (F) -1
10. Drew Fortescue (D) -1
11. Victor Mancini (D) +7
12. Noah Laba (F)
13. Jaroslav Chemlar (F) -3
14. Bryce McConnell-Barker (F) -3
15. Dylan Roobroeck (F) +2
16. Brandon Scanlin (D)
17. Raoul Boilard (F)
18. Matthew Robertson (D) -5
19. Brody Lamb -4
20. Kalle Väisänen (F)

 

[Synergy27]

So Panarin started but didn’t finish the game last night despite not being involved in another play that looked to potentially cause an injury? Is that where we’re at?

 

[bhamill]

The team could actually be better without Panarin since that would let them upgrade the powerplay by putting Laf on PP1.



Well it's simple. You can understand math and variance. Or you can not. And there is very little successful convincing that can be done to those who aren't very intelligent. Oh no, the PP is 2 for it's last 20. So now you think that means on the next PP they are 10% to score? Or it's that they are like 26% to score as they've shown over hundreds of games? I wonder which is correct.

If you win $1 if a coin flip comes up heads and lose $1 if it comes up tails, and you flip it six teams and it comes up tails all six times, would you go ahead and get a new coin for the 7th flip because clearly that one isn't performing well and is in a slump?

A slump is a slump. You can't predict they will snap out of it any more than anyone else can predict they won't... however if you have a non slumping alternative ready to go you certainly are not hurting your chances.
As far as math and variance, I understand it just fine. I'd wager all the advanced math classes I took at NYU give me a decent foundation.
Yes, anyone with a different view than you isn't very intelligent... hahahaha. The moment you go ad hominem and condescending it just signals you cant give a true logical retort. I mean your coin flip analogy flat out sucks. You think a powerplay relies on pure chance? Come on. Even you can't believe that.

 

[MrAlmost]

Step 1:
Panarin-Tro-Laf
Kreider-Z-Smith
Cuylle-Chytil-Kakko
Edstrom-Carrick-Rempe

Miller-Fox
Jones-Trouba
Mancini-Schneider

Step 2:

Step 3:
Win Cup

 

[IDvsEGO]

We lost games 4, 5 and 6 by one goal each... game 4 in OT... a couple of goals is a HUGE difference in the outcome. And who is to say it couldn't have gone a hot 35%... I used a low 20% to show even THAT could make a difference. We went 1 for 3 in game 4, and 0 for 4 in game 5 and 0 for 1 in game 6...
Again, in those circumstances, a couple of goals is huge, both scoreboard wise and momentum wise.

Not being a dick, genuinely interested in your thinking: Why are you opposed to trying some new looks/configurations during the regular season? I'm not saying throw away the current PP1, I'm saying ADD to it. What do you see the downside as? You don't think it will keep us out of the playoffs, or drop us way down in the seeding, do you?

Im not opposed to trying new things.
But when you have a pp that’s consistently within the top 5 for the past few years, with a very specific configuration, and personnel it’s hard to argue “we’re bad”.
Yeah not scoring on the pp when we need a goal is backbreaking, as it’s where we are consistently good.
But 20-30% does lead to fluctuations and a small sample size of 20 powerplays it’s the difference of 2 goals. Saying we “underperformed” in a small sample size is just an argument I really don’t buy.

Plus the pp isn’t something I want to waste time on if it’s successful usually. If we drop to 15th in the league, absolutely start tinkering.

But our 5v5 offense is the culprit. If we’re consistently pressuring at 5v5 then we’re likely to get more pp time and maybe we see more chances and convert more.


Taking Mika off pp1, doesn’t feel like it’s a net positive move. We run 2 centers on the drop, and then one has to jump off? Seems like that’ll hurt possession.
Laf is absolutely deserving of pp1 time, but i really don’t see a great option to removing him yet.

The formula we have works with 4 right hand shots.
We build a different formula with 3 right hand shots, so it’s not plug and play.

The PP was just as effective when Mika was in the bumper and Panarin on the left wall. I'd honestly like Mika there, more than the poorly setup one timers from him

-----Kreider----
Panarin-Tro-Laffy
------Fox------

would be the alternate setup. I do not see Mika coming off the PP. I'm his biggest critic. It is what it is. I would rather he stay in the bumper where he had great success previously

Mika doesn’t fight through contact enough to truly be effective long term in the bumper.
If he did, he’d be a consistent 50 goal scorer, and a monster in the playoffs.

 

[Hire Sather]

Talking about other things when Panarin might be hurt.

 

[Atax]

Talking about other things when Panarin might be hurt.

The lower body injury that will be magically healed by opening day

 

[bhamill]

Im not opposed to trying new things.
But when you have a pp that’s consistently within the top 5 for the past few years, with a very specific configuration, and personnel it’s hard to argue “we’re bad”.
Yeah not scoring on the pp when we need a goal is backbreaking, as it’s where we are consistently good.
But 20-30% does lead to fluctuations and a small sample size of 20 powerplays it’s the difference of 2 goals. Saying we “underperformed” in a small sample size is just an argument I really don’t buy.

Plus the pp isn’t something I want to waste time on if it’s successful usually. If we drop to 15th in the league, absolutely start tinkering.

But our 5v5 offense is the culprit. If we’re consistently pressuring at 5v5 then we’re likely to get more pp time and maybe we see more chances and convert more.


Taking Mika off pp1, doesn’t feel like it’s a net positive move. We run 2 centers on the drop, and then one has to jump off? Seems like that’ll hurt possession.
Laf is absolutely deserving of pp1 time, but i really don’t see a great option to removing him yet.

The formula we have works with 4 right hand shots.
We build a different formula with 3 right hand shots, so it’s not plug and play.

I get that. Again I'm not saying ditch our PP1, I'm saying ADD to it. And I'm not saying it's plug and play. Get some other combos/formulas some familiarity and see where it goes during the regular season. By playoff time its too late.
And I'm certainly not saying our 5v5 doesn't need work, its not a mutual exclusivity.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I get that. Again I'm not saying ditch our PP1, I'm saying ADD to it. And I'm not saying it's plug and play. Get some other combos/formulas some familiarity and see where it goes during the regular season. By playoff time its too late.
And I'm certainly not saying our 5v5 doesn't need work, its not a mutual exclusivity.

I think you fix 5v5 and our pp becomes less important. So you’re paying attention to the cosmetic when there’s a foundational issue.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Miller - Fox is on the table ?

I think you fix 5v5 and our pp becomes less important. So you’re paying attention to the cosmetic when there’s a foundational issue.

They’ll never do anything to fix 5v5 , that ship has long since sailed

So Panarin started but didn’t finish the game last night despite not being involved in another play that looked to potentially cause an injury? Is that where we’re at?

Just doesn’t want to play but needs to start the game to satisfy contract stipulations?

 

[bhamill]

I think you fix 5v5 and our pp becomes less important. So you’re paying attention to the cosmetic when there’s a foundational issue.

Sure and if we "fix" the PP 5v5 becomes less important. Hahaha.
I get that WAY more of the game is played at 5v5 and thus its more important. But I'm not saying ignore the 5v5 and just concentrate on the PP. I say we work on them both... seems totally logical. I myself wouldn't refer to the power play as cosmetic. The average rate of scoring is higher on the powerplay than 5v5, I'm going to have to look and see how much of an average team's scoring is on the PP as opposed to 5v5. I wonder what the percentage/ratio is. To my mind its far from cosmetic.

Edit: Seems 22% of NHL goals are scored on the powerplay. So maybe about 70-75% at 5v5? 22% is significant, especially given how little of the game is played there. I'm not saying prioritize it over 5v5, I'm saying improve it with the playoffs in mind.

 

[NYR Viper]

Edstrom being a valuable 4th line player who can also PK and get to the front of the net may seem inconsequential but it isn't. I agree with whoever said that come playoff time, the 4th line will be playing 4-5 minutes of ES time a night but where they can, and should shine is on the PK. Carrick, Vesey and Edstrom should be primary PKers. And I would expand that to Kakko and Cuylle as well.

 

[TGWL]

And I'll say this for the people who are resistant to change. Did Panarin's 44 points on the PP mean anything when we went 1 for 14 or whatever it was when the team was fighting for their playoff lives against Florida? Status quo will lead to failure. We didnt make personnel changes so we need to make usage changes. If not, Laviolette will look good next to Hank on the TNT panel next year.

Yes, it meant we finished 1st and played a bad Washington team instead of a potential first round exist.

There seems to be 3 different talking points on the powerplay issues.
1 - split time more evenly.
2 - Try out different units for when the Zibanejad, Kreider, Fox, Panarin, Trocheck line gets cold in the playoffs.
3. Replace somebody with Laf.

#1 - Your best players need to be on the ice. If anybody thinks we have 10 amazing players, well, I guess the conversation just ends.
#2- While this point is more sensible, it requires a lot for a coach to start changing units when you're trying to win games, win your division, and generally make playoffs comfortably. Also, it's pure speculation that playing a unit to get some familiarly with each other will translate to when they are suddenly thrown together in the playoffs when things aren't going right. Personally, I'd bet against that happening.
#3- They finished top 3 last season so this is going to be a hard one to do without an injury replacement or pp1 not finding the back of the bet. And just because you replace Zibanejad/Trocheck, that doesn't just equal post season powerplay success.

 

[eco's bones]

5 Preseason games and 2 one Rookie Series into 2024/25 season and to me...The below is starting to already look much different then what I initially anticipated. Specifically #4, #9, and especially #11.

Only a couple of posters even mentioned Mancini prior to camp. Maybe the best pre-season performance I can remember for any NYR defenseman. Loving what we have seen from this kid so far. Seems to have a super high Hockey IQ, and I love that this kid doesnt give up on plays. No dies how this will pan out being Jones has also been tremendous in the preseason but i really want to see the Rangers give this kid a shot.

Going into Camp i was high on Edstrom after we got small looks at him last season. He has been great in the preseason and out of the forward group he to me is the player that stands out the most as being NHL ready. A packed roster limits space here for this team but even w/out the Vesey injury this kid pushed the pace to make this teams opening night roster.

Im a believer in Jones, becuase what he has done thus far is consistently made plays that are on a higher level then the rest of the D, including players that are already penciled in. Initially i had a lot of doubts about a 5'11 offensively minded dman when the club already has another 5'11 Norris caliber dman in Fox...but Jones is showing that this can work. This depth is huge for the Rangers.



Rangers Summer 2024 Prospect Ranking

1. Gabe Perreault (F)
2. Brennan Othmann (F)
3. Brett Berard (F) +2
4. Zac Jones (D) +3
5. EJ Emery (D)
6. Adam Sykora (F) -2
7. Dylan Garand (G)
8. Matt Rempe (F) +5
9. Adam Edstrom (F) -1
10. Drew Fortescue (D) -1
11. Victor Mancini (D) +7
12. Noah Laba (F)
13. Jaroslav Chemlar (F) -3
14. Bryce McConnell-Barker (F) -3
15. Dylan Roobroeck (F) +2
16. Brandon Scanlin (D)
17. Raoul Boilard (F)
18. Matthew Robertson (D) -5
19. Brody Lamb -4
20. Kalle Väisänen (F)

It really started with Victor last year at Omaha Nebraska. I think there were several here who were suggesting that Mancini could surprise a lot of people at camp this year. Coming off a great year at Omaha-Nebraska and very smooth transition to Hartford at the end of last year. It's also seen in how he jumped 7 spots in the poll which is quite something for a guy known pretty much as a stay at home defensemen. Also the offense he began to display against the Flyers rookies was kind of unexpected but it also didn't look like the points he was getting were an accident. He was making smart offensive plays.

 

[TGWL]

Reworking the power play is something we SHOULD do. The setup is a one trick pony and thus predictable. Hence Zibs PPGs, looking at the last two seasons, dropping 40%, from 20 to 12. Developing a reworked PP doesn't mean we can't primarily use our existing PP1, either. WHATEVER IS WORKING. Options are good. And the regular season is the time to get that familiarity, not just throw them together when PP1 is failing in the post season... Stagnate and die, adapt and survive.

You can call it a one-trick pony but everybody adopted the 1-3-1 because of how successful it was. I suppose the argument can be used that NYR don't use the bumper enough to draw attention away from the play they're trying to make. You have 3 deadly options with this format
1. A deflection. (which we do)
2 - A bumper point blank shot (Maybe we can be better at this, but last season we started to use this with Trocheck circling in an out)
3- One-timer because the defender can't just stand near the circle.

Call it predictable but I'd argue that last season they started to go for the bumper shot a lot more during the second half of the season. If Zibanejad hit 12 more goals on the powerplay, does anybody have a problem with the setup and predictability of it, or are we just mad that we didn't score? Zibanejad took less shot attempts than the previous year and missed the net more. 135 shot attempts. 42 missed the net. You can't have nearly 40% of your shots miss the net. Nobody will argue that.

 

[cwede]

Scanlin, Domingue, Blidh, Fitzgerald all clear waivers



Groulx was waived today

Very few waivers-vulnerable guys left in NYR Camp who might be demoted
Nash once healthy would need waivers to demote

Mackey, possibly Ruwhedel, less likely Brodzinski or Carrick

both Erne and Bowey have been assigned to Pack,
IF they signed NYR contracts (NOT Pack AHL contracts)
they would need Waivers to be sent to Hartford

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

You can call it a one-trick pony but everybody adopted the 1-3-1 because of how successful it was. I suppose the argument can be used that NYR don't use the bumper enough to draw attention away from the play they're trying to make. You have 3 deadly options with this format
1. A deflection. (which we do)
2 - A bumper point blank shot (Maybe we can be better at this, but last season we started to use this with Trocheck circling in an out)
3- One-timer because the defender can't just stand near the circle.

Call it predictable but I'd argue that last season they started to go for the bumper shot a lot more during the second half of the season. If Zibanejad hit 12 more goals on the powerplay, does anybody have a problem with the setup and predictability of it, or are we just mad that we didn't score? Zibanejad took less shot attempts than the previous year and missed the net more. 135 shot attempts. 42 missed the net. You can't have nearly 40% of your shots miss the net. Nobody will argue that.

Zib only shoots when it’s a one timer and he’s often far from the net so of course he’s going to miss a lot. Can’t chalk it up to bad luck.

 

[SA16]

You can call it a one-trick pony but everybody adopted the 1-3-1 because of how successful it was. I suppose the argument can be used that NYR don't use the bumper enough to draw attention away from the play they're trying to make. You have 3 deadly options with this format
1. A deflection. (which we do)
2 - A bumper point blank shot (Maybe we can be better at this, but last season we started to use this with Trocheck circling in an out)
3- One-timer because the defender can't just stand near the circle.

Call it predictable but I'd argue that last season they started to go for the bumper shot a lot more during the second half of the season. If Zibanejad hit 12 more goals on the powerplay, does anybody have a problem with the setup and predictability of it, or are we just mad that we didn't score? Zibanejad took less shot attempts than the previous year and missed the net more. 135 shot attempts. 42 missed the net. You can't have nearly 40% of your shots miss the net. Nobody will argue that.

These are very routine numbers for someone in that role.

Zibanejad hit the net on 71/135 shots at 5v4 last year (52.5%).

Since 2007 Ovechkin has hit the net on 1741/3485 shot attempts (50.0%).

Stamkos on 1036/1898 (54.6%)

Pastrnak on 610/1174 (51.9%)

This is back to the classic observation bias thing. People here watch Zibanejad play 82 games per year on the PP and they see him missing shots. They don't watch 82 games of the other guys in comparable roles so they don't realize they miss the net almost just as often.

 

[Coffee]

Who’s the most sophisticated Rangers fan on these boards ?

We’re doing a tournament

 

[IDvsEGO]

These are very routine numbers for someone in that role.

Zibanejad hit the net on 71/135 shots at 5v4 last year (52.5%).

Since 2007 Ovechkin has hit the net on 1741/3485 shot attempts (50.0%).

Stamkos on 1036/1898 (54.6%)

Pastrnak on 610/1174 (51.9%)

Routine while also comparing them to 3 of the best shots in the league…
And Mika isn’t far behind.

 

[SA16]

Routine while also comparing them to 3 of the best shots in the league…
And Mika isn’t far behind.

Well yea, comparing him to the other guys who play the exact same left circle shooting role on the PP. Those are some of the guys who have done it the longest. And Zibanejad has more PPG than all of them the last 5 years. There aren't really too many lesser players in that role because if they didn't have a premier shot they would not be put in a spot like that on the PP.

Kucherov plays that role on the right side. 51%.
Rantanen often plays that role on the right side. 56%.
Mike Hoffman used to play that role when he was good 54.7% from 2015 to 2020.

Everyone is very close.

The difference between the worst (Ovechkin) and best (Rantanen) over 135 shot attempts (what Zibanejad had last year) would equate to 8 shots a game or a total of about 1.4 goals for a season.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Who’s the most sophisticated Rangers fan on these boards ?

We’re doing a tournament

bernmeister

 

[Coffee]

bernmeister

I thought it was @Filthy Dangles but he’s too unserious

 

[EdJovanovski]

I thought it was @Filthy Dangles but he’s too unserious

bernmeister is a very sophisticated man, I picture him wearing a suit everyday and reading the newspaper with a monocle

 

[bhamill]

You can call it a one-trick pony but everybody adopted the 1-3-1 because of how successful it was. I suppose the argument can be used that NYR don't use the bumper enough to draw attention away from the play they're trying to make. You have 3 deadly options with this format
1. A deflection. (which we do)
2 - A bumper point blank shot (Maybe we can be better at this, but last season we started to use this with Trocheck circling in an out)
3- One-timer because the defender can't just stand near the circle.

Call it predictable but I'd argue that last season they started to go for the bumper shot a lot more during the second half of the season. If Zibanejad hit 12 more goals on the powerplay, does anybody have a problem with the setup and predictability of it, or are we just mad that we didn't score? Zibanejad took less shot attempts than the previous year and missed the net more. 135 shot attempts. 42 missed the net. You can't have nearly 40% of your shots miss the net. Nobody will argue that.

And it was successful for us. Until it wasn't and we got bounced. Of course if Zibs scored 12 more on the PP, doubling his regular season output, we'd have less problem with it. But if it still shit the bed come playoff time, its something, ALONG with OTHER stuff concerning our 5v5 play, I'd say needed to be addressed.
I get the feeling people think I want to scrap PP1, never to be seen again, when really all I'm advocating for is to have fresh options ready to roll out if/when needed. Specifically in a 7 game series when you don't normally have the luxury of letting a PP play through a slump...