Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XII

[Ola]

Something cooking on the Willie Nylander front?

The TML brass are meeting with Willie in Europe, or have done so just recently.

TML has not offered Willie a short contract. Only 7 years are on the table. 6.5m per maybe. They read the CBA so they are not falling into the Slats/Gorton trap of trying to be cheap and get minimum AAV early during a players' contract. Willie had too good stats to immediately accept less than 7m per. Really young close to a PPG player. Some have taken less, some have taken more.

Will Willie take what TML are offering him to play in Toronto and get a shot at the Cup? Will they settle on a shorter deal? Will TML pay him? The deadline is December 1. Kapanen has done well with Nylander holding out. Would TML consider trading Nyls? I am sure Toronto are having some discussions with teams around the league, just get a feel of what the alternatives are.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The issue with the Rangers is being bad enough to get a better lottery pick. I totally understand the players wanting to win every game. It does not help the Rangers in the long term. Most of the players on this current roster will not be here when the team is hopefully a top Cup contender. Less than a handful might be here.

The Rangers need elite forwards and those players are found at the top of the draft. The Rangers don’t have much luck with the lottery so they need to be bad to get a top player. Finishing 8th and ending up 9th with Carolina moving up to #2 isn’t an ideal scenario. Those things don’t happen to the Rangers. Moving up 10 spots.

The Rangers are better off losing. That’s how the system is set up. They win these games and the players are so happy. The organization is going to pay the price because the team won’t be good enough to win. These guys will be long gone and we(the fans)will still be here. We were here long before Lundqvist and we will be here when Lundqvist is back in Sweden enjoying his retirement.

This team has a long way to go. You hoped some of the young guys would have played and established themselves as NHL regulars. It’s still early but Andersson is in AHL. Chytil might be joining him. Howden would be the only young guy on the roster and who knows what happens with him. Maybe they send him to the AHL too. Get slides for Andersson and Chytil. They can manipulate how many NHL games they play.

It’s like the Knicks who win meaningless games down the stretch of the season. All of the players are happy to end on a good note. It ends up hurting the franchise. Three more wins sees Golden State draft Curry one pick ahead of the Knicks and the Knicks end up with Jordan Hill. They wanted Curry but they won too many games. Those players on the Knicks were all gone by the next season. What’s the point?

So many years later. The Knicks still suck and Curry has won 3 championships and 2 MVP trophies with Golden State.

The Rangers have never picked higher than 6th with their own pick. Al Montoya in 2004. They traded up to 4th for Brendl in 2000. Their own pick. No higher than 6th. That’s why they never win. 4 Cups in their history. 1 Cup in 78 years. The fewest Cups of any original 6 franchise.

Mismanagement.

They are so concerned with not being terrible and they never end up being great. They end up being mediocre.

Trying to be competitive and rebuild at the same time is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I don't disagree, but I also find it even difficult to debate the subject since I'm convinced the Rangers will never entertain the idea of tanking. What we are seeing now is the closest they'll ever get, and its becoming sort of a half-assed re-tooling. Whats even more frustrating is theres no better time for the Rangers to really entertain biting the bullet and being terrible for a couple of years aimed at truly rebuilding. You've got a team that was very competitive for several years, rotted, many of the key players got traded away, coach got fired....what better time to truly rebuild? You've got 2 potentially generational players at the top of the draft next year but, you're right, the Rangers will draft 6-12th again.

I guess the philosophy is to build a core through trades/the draft and import the elite talent. Maybe sign Panarin this off-season, etc. It's the same old formula from a decade ago, and it didn't produce a championship.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Oh my God, the players actually are trying and want to win games. THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN.

There’s a difference between not being good enough and not trying. We all know this team isn’t good enough, but f*** that garbage idea that they shouldn’t be trying to win. Complacency is death. You can’t have guys you want gone at the deadline suck ass and then expect them to have value.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

The issue with the Rangers is being bad enough to get a better lottery pick. I totally understand the players wanting to win every game. It does not help the Rangers in the long term. Most of the players on this current roster will not be here when the team is hopefully a top Cup contender. Less than a handful might be here.

The Rangers need elite forwards and those players are found at the top of the draft. The Rangers don’t have much luck with the lottery so they need to be bad to get a top player. Finishing 8th and ending up 9th with Carolina moving up to #2 isn’t an ideal scenario. Those things don’t happen to the Rangers. Moving up 10 spots.

The Rangers are better off losing. That’s how the system is set up. They win these games and the players are so happy. The organization is going to pay the price because the team won’t be good enough to win. These guys will be long gone and we(the fans)will still be here. We were here long before Lundqvist and we will be here when Lundqvist is back in Sweden enjoying his retirement.

This team has a long way to go. You hoped some of the young guys would have played and established themselves as NHL regulars. It’s still early but Andersson is in AHL. Chytil might be joining him. Howden would be the only young guy on the roster and who knows what happens with him. Maybe they send him to the AHL too. Get slides for Andersson and Chytil. They can manipulate how many NHL games they play.

It’s like the Knicks who win meaningless games down the stretch of the season. All of the players are happy to end on a good note. It ends up hurting the franchise. Three more wins sees Golden State draft Curry one pick ahead of the Knicks and the Knicks end up with Jordan Hill. They wanted Curry but they won too many games. Those players on the Knicks were all gone by the next season. What’s the point?

So many years later. The Knicks still suck and Curry has won 3 championships and 2 MVP trophies with Golden State.

The Rangers have never picked higher than 6th with their own pick. Al Montoya in 2004. They traded up to 4th for Brendl in 2000. Their own pick. No higher than 6th. That’s why they never win. 4 Cups in their history. 1 Cup in 78 years. The fewest Cups of any original 6 franchise.

Mismanagement.

They are so concerned with not being terrible and they never end up being great. They end up being mediocre.

Trying to be competitive and rebuild at the same time is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Tim Hardaway's big game against the Orlando Magic to end the season in 2015, cost the Knicks Karl-Anthony Towns.

I will never forget that.


Agreed. Players don't tank. It's up to the management if they want a top/elite talent to put the team in position. There are ways to manipulate it. The coach could help too but he would have to have job security and the okay from management.

 

[silverfish]

We don't want the "Edmonton rebuild", but, we need to lose more to rebuild...

 

[True Blue]

I totally understand the players wanting to win every game. It does not help the Rangers in the long term.

What do you propose they do?

Trying to be competitive and rebuild at the same time is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

They are all in on a rebuild. If they happen to win along the way, that would be icing on the cake. I do not get the notion that Gorton is doing what you suggest.

 

[True Blue]

I guess the philosophy is to build a core through trades/the draft and import the elite talent. Maybe sign Panarin this off-season, etc. It's the same old formula from a decade ago, and it didn't produce a championship.

Wow. Where did you get the notion that ANY of this is what is happening? Just what is it that you want to see that will evidence that they are all-in on a rebuild??

 

[DutchShamrock]

The philosophy of building a contender from this point on has been hashed and rehashed. The only question is how do they go about it. They need buyers right now.

They sent two scouts to a leafs pens game. Was it to address Schultz's injury in Pitt? Is it to build a bigger Nylandet deal? Other than that, not many buyers out there.

My hope is a few teams step up in November and add them before they are out of a playoff spot by the artificial Thanksgiving deadline. Almost no one claws back into a spot after that. Pressure is on with a handful of teams. Carolina, Arizona, Calgary, St. Louis.

This is an evolving league. I wonder if the Nash deadline deal is a dying move. A huge price paid and its arguable that he was more impactful in Boston than spooner. But at the same time, teams may adopt a Rutherford ideal of earlier trades. We at least have a plan for the future so we wont hang onto guys just to make a run. November and December will most likely be quiet but maybe some things break our way.

 

[Inferno]

I agree with rbs sentiment tho....winning doesn't really help. In the end I've always felt like this was a bottom 7 team ..not a bottom 3 team...they're gonna need to really dismantle at the deadline to make up the lost ground. I think they're gonna be maybe even better than I was expecting...which, like rb says...is not a good thing.

 

[DutchShamrock]

I agree with rbs sentiment tho....winning doesn't really help. In the end I've always felt like this was a bottom 7 team ..not a bottom 3 team...they're gonna need to really dismantle at the deadline to make up the lost ground. I think they're gonna be maybe even better than I was expecting...which, like rb says...is not a good thing.

I see the goal for the draft. But Quinn has them playing hard. They'll get a better system. Some young guys look good. Let's not overlook why they are better than expected. It's not Zuccarello and Hayes dragging them to success.

 

[Irishguy42]

Coaches and players will ALWAYS try to win. Yes, they all know losing helps them more long-term. But they are paid to win and they WILL try every single night.

If you're mad about that, stop watching team sports because you clearly don't get it.

 

[True Blue]

I think they're gonna be maybe even better than I was expecting...which, like rb says...is not a good thing.

If they are better, maybe it is due to the way that Quinn has them playing and the goaltending of Hekne? Should they just put him on waivers? Or maybe demote Howden, bench Kreider? What should they have done or what do you believe they should be doing?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Oh my God, the players actually are trying and want to win games. THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN.

There’s a difference between not being good enough and not trying. We all know this team isn’t good enough, but **** that garbage idea that they shouldn’t be trying to win. Complacency is death. You can’t have guys you want gone at the deadline suck ass and then expect them to have value.

So is mediocrity.

 

[Leetch3]

We don't want the "Edmonton rebuild", but, we need to lose more to rebuild...

yes losing for 1-2 years is definitely the same as being poorly managed for 20 years

 

[silverfish]

yes losing for 1-2 years is definitely the same as being poorly managed for 20 years

Your assumption is that we'll begin winning again 2 years from now. Which might be a fair assumption, but I'm no prophet.

 

[NYR Viper]

It's an interesting thought when you think about it this way:

Assume the Rangers could trade Hayes right now for a 1st, however at the deadline, they assume they could get a 1st + decent prospect (say similar in value to a Lindgren). Would it make more sense to move Hayes now, assuming that also helps the team lower themselves in the standings for a better draft pick, while taking lesser value for Hayes?

So basically:

XXX 1st + moving up in the draft X number of spots

vs

XXX 1st + prospect + draft pick 2-3 spots later in the draft

We can have a similar discussion in regards to many other players

 

[NYR Viper]

Your assumption is that we'll begin winning again 2 years from now. Which might be a fair assumption, but I'm no prophet.

In playing the odds game, it would be a higher percentage play to bottom out and get better picks for a year or two rather than picking at 7-10 though. I think that is RB's point.

 

[NYR Viper]

Coaches and players will ALWAYS try to win. Yes, they all know losing helps them more long-term. But they are paid to win and they WILL try every single night.

If you're mad about that, stop watching team sports because you clearly don't get it.

I don't think RB is saying the players shouldn't try and win. I think what he is saying is that Gorton has the ability to almost take that opportunity out of their hands by making the right personnel moves.

 

[Irishguy42]

I don't think RB is saying the players shouldn't try and win. I think what he is saying is that Gorton has the ability to almost take that opportunity out of their hands by making the right personnel moves.

Then he should say that instead of grand-standing like he always does. No point.

 

[silverfish]

In playing the odds game, it would be a higher percentage play to bottom out and get better picks for a year or two rather than picking at 7-10 though. I think that is RB's point.

It's certainly his point, and it's fine, but to get on his soapbox and complain that the players on the ice and the coaching staff are trying to win is kind of insane.

If his point was: "The FO made this team too good to be a complete bottom-feeder" [< this sentence is so weird, but you all know what I mean] then he'd have a good point.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

I see the goal for the draft. But Quinn has them playing hard. They'll get a better system. Some young guys look good. Let's not overlook why they are better than expected. It's not Zuccarello and Hayes dragging them to success.

If they are better, maybe it is due to the way that Quinn has them playing and the goaltending of Hekne? Should they just put him on waivers? Or maybe demote Howden, bench Kreider? What should they have done or what do you believe they should be doing?

Yep. All true. Coaching makes a difference.
One reason why the Knicks was terrible enough to get Porzingis that year, was due to Fisher's horrible coaching.

 

[GAGLine]

In playing the odds game, it would be a higher percentage play to bottom out and get better picks for a year or two rather than picking at 7-10 though. I think that is RB's point.

I don't disagree with his point, but I don't think we need to be worried about how much this team is winning. Not yet, at least. We're tied with LA for 5th worst. The teams behind us, other than Detroit, have played less games, and other than Detroit, they all have expectations of making the playoffs. We play LA and Florida in 2 of our next 4 games. It won't take much for us to be 2nd worst.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

It's an interesting thought when you think about it this way:

Assume the Rangers could trade Hayes right now for a 1st, however at the deadline, they assume they could get a 1st + decent prospect (say similar in value to a Lindgren). Would it make more sense to move Hayes now, assuming that also helps the team lower themselves in the standings for a better draft pick, while taking lesser value for Hayes?

So basically:

XXX 1st + moving up in the draft X number of spots

vs

XXX 1st + prospect + draft pick 2-3 spots later in the draft

We can have a similar discussion in regards to many other players

I rather the first. Cause the prospect you get back in a trade, isn't going to be of the same caliber you have shot at if your picking 1 or 2 overall.

 

[Mac n Gs]

So is mediocrity.

That’s great, but I’m not advocating for going for it and being stuck in the middle. The roster is already bad and they’re going to end up as a bottom-5 team. What I will never advocate for is not trying and putting in effort to fit a new identity and play a better brand of hockey. If they aren’t trying to learn under Quinn and to prepare to be a better hockey team in the upcoming years, then what’s the point?

The roster sucks, has no offensive depth, and the defense is greener than grass in the spring. Gorton already positioned them to be a bad team that loses games.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

That’s great, but I’m not advocating for going for it and being stuck in the middle. The roster is already bad and they’re going to end up as a bottom-5 team. What I will never advocate for is not trying and putting in effort to fit a new identity and play a better brand of hockey. If they aren’t trying to learn under Quinn and to prepare to be a better hockey team in the upcoming years, then what’s the point?

The roster sucks, has no offensive depth, and the defense is greener than grass in the spring. Gorton already positioned them to be a bad team that loses games.

Do people want us to lose 82 games? We’re 2-4-1, that’s a pretty bad record. Do people think we’re going to get better as the season goes along, and injuries start to set in? When contenders separate from pretenders?