Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[LOFIN]

Just popping in to say Igor needs to be traded this summer if he’s not signing a reasonable extension

For what? Look at what goalies have been fetching this summer lol. I would rather keep him as an own rental with the current landscape.

 

[bhamill]

Honestly, I have no issue with what either "side" has done or anyone on the boards who takes one side. It is a business; players, management, and fans know that. I just felt the need to defend Trouba for being a family man first, a hockey player second, and a Ranger third. As fans, we tend to put our own loyalties first. Players come and go, yet we fans stick around, year after year, decade after decade. This is an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. In an odd way, during the season, players become part of my "extended family." I care about them not just as players but as people. Players might be genetically gifted in ways that we mere "mortals" can only fantasize about. But when it comes to emotions and "everyday life" they are no different than any of us. Sure I understand that the Rangers must do what they think is best for the team. It is when fans criticize players for doing the same, that I have an issue. The whole Trouba saga, of a hockey player having a wife who is a doctor, of doing her residency in NYC, of structuring his career in a way that takes into account his wife's career is fascinating and has been a joy to watch. So again, no issue or problem with you or anyone else: we are all passionate about the team we love and want the best for them. I just felt that the conversation was one-sided and needed someone to defend Trouba who, despite his deteriorating play and the weight of his contract, is a player that I like.

You seem like a stand up guy. And I see that in Trouba as well. Unfortunate that some people are attacking his character and/or his wife. My only gripe with him is IF his agent is acting in bad faith, then some of that is HIS responsibility. But I still get it.

True, but Stepan warranted the extension when he signed it. Then he declined, and to their credit, the team got out at the right time.

If they extend Lindgren after what we just saw, it raises serious alarm bells (and it's nothing new) about how they evaluate defensemen, and makes me question if they would even notice a decline.

If they decide to give him multiple years now, they certainly didn't notice that he already got much worse in 23-24.

Fair.
Maybe they give him a “show me” contract to see if he rebounds from 23-24. I mean arbitration would be a one year deal.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

They still signed it before the flat cap ended which was this June. The timing. In the words of the great Thunderbolt Patterson, "if I only had the time, if I only....ooooooooh"

Yes, but their agents aren't stupid. Everyone knew after this past season the cap was jumping. The increased cap ceiling was part of the equation when they negotiated these deals.

Then you have Saros. Shesh is not over $5M AAV better then him.

 

[eco's bones]

FWIW Drury's career ended not great for us either. HIs last year of his term the Rangers wanted him to retire knowing he wasn't going to play due to injury and instead he refused and stuck them with his rather hefty cap hit. That was also within his rights but it also hurt the team. There is no real evidence that Trouba has acted in an underhanded way here. It might not be what his GM wants or the fans either but that's the way it is.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

FWIW Drury's career ended not great for us either. HIs last year of his term the Rangers wanted him to retire knowing he wasn't going to play due to injury and instead he refused and stuck them with his rather hefty cap hit. That was also within his rights but it also hurt the team. There is no real evidence that Trouba has acted in an underhanded way here. It might not be what his GM wants or the fans either but that's the way it is.

I don't see this as comparable at all.

Drury could barely move and had zero value across the league. His contract was insanely high for the times (14% of the cap). There was no ability to trade him as that was largely before all the shenanigans with salary retention, cap floor teams, etc were in vogue.

Trouba still has value. He is a more useful player than Drury was after the injuries and his cap hit is "only" 9%. If we retain the rumored amount it would be 6% which is reasonable for someone of his caliber.

TBH I'd rather axe Lindgren and keep Trouba for the third pair next year (assuming we can't replace both which is looking like a pipe dream at this point). There are teams that undoubtedly would want him if he's willing to go. I'd argue he'd be useful to us on the 3rd pair and we can contend with him playing a role, again --- this assumes Lindgren is upgraded.

Other than Trouba & Drury both having been captains who outgrew their value to the team, I don't see any similarities here. Drury could barely skate at the end of his tenure.

 

[RangerBoy]

FWIW Drury's career ended not great for us either. HIs last year of his term the Rangers wanted him to retire knowing he wasn't going to play due to injury and instead he refused and stuck them with his rather hefty cap hit. That was also within his rights but it also hurt the team. There is no real evidence that Trouba has acted in an underhanded way here. It might not be what his GM wants or the fans either but that's the way it is.

The Rangers bought out Drury in the summer of 2011. He had a bad knee. Sather still bought him. Drury wasn't in the mood to fight the Rangers. The Rangers brought him back into the organization four years later. Drury is now the Rangers boss.

 

[Synergy27]

For what? Look at what goalies have been fetching this summer lol. I would rather keep him as an own rental with the current landscape.

How about expanding the potential trade with Anaheim, a team that should be looking to take a few steps forward after rebuilding.

Shesterkin, Trouba, and Kakko for Zegras, Gibson + what? I’d expect that plus to be pretty significant, but I honestly think this trade helps both teams.

Anaheim weaponizing their cap space to bring in the best goalie in the league, a veteran at a position of need, and a pedigreed winger in need of a change of scenery.

Rangers land a dynamic offensive talent in Zegras, get some cost certainty in goal for the remainder of this window, and whatever plus is fair in addition to some additional wiggle room with the cap.

Who says no?

 

[noncents]

Honestly, I have no issue with what either "side" has done or anyone on the boards who takes one side. It is a business; players, management, and fans know that. I just felt the need to defend Trouba for being a family man first, a hockey player second, and a Ranger third.

youve expressed your views clearly and with an acknowledgement of your own bias (to side with the workers always, etc), which i appreciate, but i want to offer a counter perspective - thar your assumptions about troubas motivations are as generous as they could possibly be.

It may be that Trouba is comfortable here, enjoying the luxuries and conveniences of NYC life as a wealthy pro athlete, and doesn't wanna move. I could assign as much petulance and selfishness to his purported actions as you have assigned family-first noble prioritization.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

How about expanding the potential trade with Anaheim, a team that should be looking to take a few steps forward after rebuilding.

Shesterkin, Trouba, and Kakko for Zegras, Gibson + what? I’d expect that plus to be pretty significant, but I honestly think this trade helps both teams.

Anaheim weaponizing their cap space to bring in the best goalie in the league, a veteran at a position of need, and a pedigreed winger in need of a change of scenery.

Rangers land a dynamic offensive talent in Zegras, get some cost certainty in goal for the remainder of this window, and whatever plus is fair in addition to some additional wiggle room with the cap.

Who says no?

In that scenario, ideally the plus should be Mintyukov.

 

[Fitzy]

It's only a week into free agency. But I'm stunned at how this team made exactly one UFA signing who is likely to make the opening night roster so far.

If things stay status quo everywhere else... what an opportunity for the youth, I guess is the way to put it. Where is the depth? We're a couple injuries away from Riley Nash, Ben Harpur and Jake Leshyshyn if kids like Robertson, Othmann, Berard don't rise to the occasion.

I never thought we'd repeat a Nick Bonino at 3C situation after what we experienced last year.

 

[Roo Returns]

Yes, but their agents aren't stupid. Everyone knew after this past season the cap was jumping. The increased cap ceiling was part of the equation when they negotiated these deals.

Then you have Saros. Shesh is not over $5M AAV better then him.

Tennessee has state tax advantages and it's less money to live there so that's automatically $2.5-$3 million less without even getting into performance and the whole "have to win" here thing in NY.

Personally I've been to Nashville and it's one of two cities that did nothing for me (Detroit being the other) however many people really enjoy it. (Glorified obnoxious fraternity/sorority party with people wearing country hats).

 

[Roo Returns]

It's only a week into free agency. But I'm stunned at how this team made exactly one UFA signing who is likely to make the opening night roster so far.

If things stay status quo everywhere else... what an opportunity for the youth, I guess is the way to put it. Where is the depth? We're a couple injuries away from Riley Nash, Ben Harpur and Jake Leshyshyn if kids like Robertson, Othmann, Berard don't rise to the occasion.

I never thought we'd repeat a Nick Bonino at 3C situation after what we experienced last year.

It's not a good idea to go into the season with Chytil as 3C. We all know it. Drury doesn't come off as the delusional type. The only explanation is his hands are tied because Trouba couldn't be moved+UFA market is outrageous+he needs to finalize numbers for Lindgren and Schneider.

I'd be shocked if there aren't at least 2-3 PTOs in camp.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Tennessee has state tax advantages and it's less money to live there so that's automatically $2.5-$3 million less without even getting into performance and the whole "have to win" here thing in NY.

Personally I've been to Nashville and it's one of two cities that did nothing for me (Detroit being the other) however many people really enjoy it. (Glorified obnoxious fraternity/sorority party with people wearing country hats).

I think you are over estimating that tax benefit. It's likely closer to $1-1.5M. The tax benefit only applies to 41 games of the season and it's on the state taxes. You are still paying the same federal and agent taxes/fees.

 

[SA16]

I think you are over estimating that tax benefit. It's likely closer to $1-1.5M. The tax benefit only applies to 41 games of the season and it's on the state taxes. You are still paying the same federal and agent taxes/fees.

Such a big tax benefit that they offered more money to Stamkos than anyone (or at least, comparable, considering the contract he got is much larger than most people expected). And had to give Skjei 7x7. The state tax thing is so overblown yet everytime a player signs in one of those stats it's used as a reason and everytime they don't its ignored.

 

[majordomo]

How about expanding the potential trade with Anaheim, a team that should be looking to take a few steps forward after rebuilding.

Shesterkin, Trouba, and Kakko for Zegras, Gibson + what? I’d expect that plus to be pretty significant, but I honestly think this trade helps both teams.

Anaheim weaponizing their cap space to bring in the best goalie in the league, a veteran at a position of need, and a pedigreed winger in need of a change of scenery.

Rangers land a dynamic offensive talent in Zegras, get some cost certainty in goal for the remainder of this window, and whatever plus is fair in addition to some additional wiggle room with the cap.

Who says no?

Me.

 

[haohmaru]

I think when it comes to "market value", we tend to look at few of the examples where teams have handed out bigger contracts and say "that's the new market value for a player of that caliber", when in fact they are mostly outliers.

Not so much that Tkachuk and Barkov are under value, but Panarin and Tavares were overvalue.

Panarin can’t be “over value” when he took less (Islanders) to sign here.

 

[Synergy27]

In that scenario, ideally the plus should be Mintyukov.

I mean, ideally yeah. Is that fair? Surely not.

Panarin can’t be “over value” when he took less (Islanders) to sign here.

Flawed logic. Just because someone else was willing to throw more money at him to fail in the playoffs doesn’t mean they valued him correctly as well.

Panarin is not the elite, game breaking talent that his contract warrants. He’s a very, very good regular season performer who plays a relatively important position that can’t carry over his production into the playoffs. Having that much cap allocated to that player is one of the main reasons why this team doesn’t win.

 

[ReddestRum]

I mean, ideally yeah. Is that fair? Surely not.


Flawed logic. Just because someone else was willing to throw more money at him to fail in the playoffs doesn’t mean they valued him correctly as well.

Panarin is not the elite, game breaking talent that his contract warrants. He’s a very, very good regular season performer who plays a relatively important position that can’t carry over his production into the playoffs. Having that much cap allocated to that player is one of the main reasons why this team doesn’t win.

TIL that scoring 120 points is just "very, very good."

I would surely like our top playe's production to increase in the playoffs, but we are a no-depth team with a less than average defense with abysmal 5v5 production that survived mostly on the PP and the back of Lundqvist jr. Can't expect just three/four guys to do it all no matter how much they get paid. The Leafs taught the NHL that.

 

[Guyute]

Some rumblings the Clayton Keller isn’t happy about the move to Utah?

 

[kovazub94]

Looking at total value is kind of pointless. He can invest that 1.5 extra over 7 years and have a hell of a lot more $ than 11m in the 8th year

You’re not wrong but for the “hell of a lot part”. The difference is… $3m which is quite easy to address for example via bonus structure.

 

[kovazub94]

It's only a week into free agency. But I'm stunned at how this team made exactly one UFA signing who is likely to make the opening night roster so far.

If things stay status quo everywhere else... what an opportunity for the youth, I guess is the way to put it. Where is the depth? We're a couple injuries away from Riley Nash, Ben Harpur and Jake Leshyshyn if kids like Robertson, Othmann, Berard don't rise to the occasion.

I never thought we'd repeat a Nick Bonino at 3C situation after what we experienced last year.

You appropriately stated about only a week into free agency. However with the move for Smith Drury effectively set the teams top-9 at forward while leaving 4th line and 13th forward to be a combination of Vesey, Carrick, Brodzinski and Rempe. Next, internally they have Edstrom, Othmann and Berard. So how can we lament here if Drury will only go dumpster shopping for another one or two depth forwards around league minimum?

On D we still don’t know what Drury’s plan is re 1LD but he clearly is in a regroup phase after Trouba fiasco.

Only one week indeed.

 

[kovazub94]

Such a big tax benefit that they offered more money to Stamkos than anyone (or at least, comparable, considering the contract he got is much larger than most people expected). And had to give Skjei 7x7. The state tax thing is so overblown yet everytime a player signs in one of those stats it's used as a reason and everytime they don't its ignored.

Let’s throw some numbers there: average state tax rate is about 7%-8%. During offseason players can establish residence in tax free states so for 9 months this rate (as in extra expense) then is down to 5%-5.5%. Then games away are taxed similarly so let’s adjust it further (I’m going to even allocate more to 41 home games, let’s say 60%). Adjusting for home / away games brings the no-state-tax advantage to 3%-3.5%. Still something but far from overblown thing it has become in the eyes of fans and media.

 

[LOFIN]

Such a big tax benefit that they offered more money to Stamkos than anyone (or at least, comparable, considering the contract he got is much larger than most people expected). And had to give Skjei 7x7. The state tax thing is so overblown yet everytime a player signs in one of those stats it's used as a reason and everytime they don't its ignored.

I'm willing to say, that the tax advantage is a thing for the middle and low class players in the league. They aren't offered these structured contracts, they are probably not in a position to use different ways to fiddle with their taxes. For those players, it really does make a difference where you play.

For the star players, who get these big AAV and term contracts? The taxes are way overblown.

 

[SA16]

Let’s throw some numbers there: average state tax rate is about 7%-8%. During offseason players can establish residence in tax free states so for 9 months this rate (as in extra expense) then is down to 5%-5.5%. Then games away are taxed similarly so let’s adjust it further (I’m going to even allocate more to 41 home games, let’s say 60%). Adjusting for home / away games brings the no-state-tax advantage to 3%-3.5%. Still something but far from overblown thing it has become in the eyes of fans and media.

There have been many comments from agents saying there are things they can do to mitigate the difference yet everytime it's brought up you just have fans/media taking the state income tax rate and multiplying it by the salary to show the difference which is very clearly incorrect.

 

[CTTribe73]

Let’s throw some numbers there: average state tax rate is about 7%-8%. During offseason players can establish residence in tax free states so for 9 months this rate (as in extra expense) then is down to 5%-5.5%. Then games away are taxed similarly so let’s adjust it further (I’m going to even allocate more to 41 home games, let’s say 60%). Adjusting for home / away games brings the no-state-tax advantage to 3%-3.5%. Still something but far from overblown thing it has become in the eyes of fans and media.

An easier way to think about it is 1/2 their game check income escapes state income taxes while the other half (road games) will be subject to same, at statutory rates. So your math is generally correct assuming that’s their only source of income. Gets trickier for the dual country residents or guys here on visas.

This was Derek Jeter’s fight with New York State/City for pretty much the entirety of his Yankee career because he owned a place in Manhattan as well as his, um, ‘house’ in Tampa. IIRC Jeter eventually beat them clean.