Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

No, it still is.

Most of us have realized he's not going to hit his superstar power forward expectations, just like a ton of other players in each draft don't reach their expectations, but we are still rooting for him to be an effective top 6 forward and don't want to trade him for a bag of pucks.

Exactly. It's not the binary "100+ point superstar or complete bust with zero value". Theres a massive grey in between. Couldn't agree more that trading an asset like Kakko - who is a guy that realizes he needs to be better and has a great attitude - while his value is at an all time low is a terrible move. Power forwards specifically take more time to develop. He's got a great foundation in his skillset, he needs to add a little skating and most importantly some confidence into the mix. I'm very confident he'll be a valuable player in his career.

 

[Fitzy]

No, it still is.

Most of us have realized he's not going to hit his superstar power forward expectations, just like a ton of other players in each draft don't reach their expectations, but we are still rooting for him to be an effective top 6 forward and don't want to trade him for a bag of pucks.

Well I can’t speak for other posters but my position has been for a year now that whether he reaches his top 6 forward potential or not, his play style doesn’t fit our roster, style, or our needs at present.

It’d still be a big boon if he turns into a 25-25-50 guy, but then you’re also going to have to pay him like one. Circumstances differ but NYR have a history of being hesitant to pay young wingers who they don’t think fit.

I hope he succeeds and think he may well still. But he’s an obvious candidate to be moved for someone more fitting, I don’t see anyone advocating for a “bag of pucks”

My point in the earlier post is that just with a Manny Malhotra, people have a tendency to not be able to let it go when highly drafted guys top out as role players. Who was happy with Zach Bogosian?

 

[Luger]

It's mind boggling the amount of hate Kakko gets.

We wouldn't had he been a second rounder instead of second overall. We were jumping out of our chairs when the Rangers won that lottery pick. Instead, we got a guy who this year looked no better than Will Cuylle, who happens to be a year younger and had only a cup of coffee in the NHL before this season. Why are we not projecting the younger, less experienced Cuylle to bloom into a star, but KK is gold?

We don't hate KK, but we are disappointed. Even if you don't anticipate getting Malkin at #2, you hope for Barkov, Sam Reinhart, Landeskog, Hedman, Doughty, Svechnikov, Seguin. You expect a first liner, or at least a borderline first liner, not a random NHLer.

 

[Machinehead]

Beyond arrogant...

LMAO what?

 

[kovazub94]

Value is too low to even bother at this point. Rather hold onto him and hope the injury stuff is behind him and he continues to become a 50-60 point player.

From all the reports if Drury doesn’t find the right value - he’s not need to trade Kakko (because of factors around last season performance as he’s surely understand too). IMO he’s looking for a similar age player coming back who also might need a change in scenery to realized untapped potential.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

We wouldn't had he been a second rounder instead of second overall. We were jumping out of our chairs when the Rangers won that lottery pick. Instead, we got a guy who this year looked no better than Will Cuylle, who happens to be a year younger and had only a cup of coffee in the NHL before this season. Why are we not projecting the younger, less experienced Cuylle to bloom into a star, but KK is gold?

We don't hate KK, but we are disappointed. Even if you don't anticipate getting Malkin at #2, you hope for Barkov, Sam Reinhart, Landeskog, Hedman, Doughty, Svechnikov, Seguin. You expect a first liner, or at least a borderline first liner. Not a random NHLer.

It's fine to be disappointed, but when it goes to "Lets trade him for a 28 year old player who just matched his career high in points at 28, and also cost 1.6 more a season " it becomes ridiculous.

 

[kovazub94]

I think Stephenson is going to be looking to cash in, and he's going to want term as well. The last 3 years, he has outperformed his contract. I could see him signing 5 x 5 somewhere.

Colton doesn't score as much and has 3 years left at 4 mil. He might not cost a lot to acquire since Colorado is looking to clear cap space, and he's younger than Stephenson.

Either could be an option depending on what other moves we make. If we are going to upgrade the defense, we have to factor in the long-term cost. Like, if we trade for Chychrun, he will need a new contract next summer. Signing Stephenson or trading for Colton would make that a lot harder, given the other players who will need new contracts.

We may not be able to address every weakness this offseason. If push comes to shove, I'd rather fix the defense, since we have prospects who can fill in on the wing. We don't have centers, but we can bring in someone on the cheap to provide some insurance there, preferably on a 1-year deal. Maybe we trade for Lars Eller, Nic Dowd or Jake Evans, or sign Teddy Blueger.

That said, I'm not sure the right fix exists for the defense, barring a trade for a player otherwise thought to be unavailable. It's easy to suggest trading Trouba and/or Lindgren, but finding the correct replacements is the real trick.

Finding partner for Fox will be the key priority. And yes - cap considerations will play a significant role in this process. However this is a positive factor that both Lindgren should have good value around the league (Kakko too if push came to shove) so if Drury is able to address this then finding essentially a vet 3RD should be a simpler task.

 

[Savant]

Same as Laf last year. Maybe laf was even worse.

Some people here are just miserable

The thing is with Laf hate (I was certainly a part of it and was won over) was a lack of reasonable evidence. But let’s also consider, Laf needed a line change (into the two six playing with two all stars) AND a position change. Kakko has already been on every line, and he doesn’t have a left wing spot to run to and try that; and he definitely isn’t going center. So does he have those (for lack of a better word) escape routes that Lafreniere had last season. Lafreniere didn’t simply wake up on the right side of the bed.

If Kakko isn’t sticking with Kreider and Zibanejad; what exactly is the plan here? Where does he go? We tried shutdown line and he was still getting healthy scratched in the playoffs. Maybe you can pull it off with a better center than Wennberg but, there aren’t a ton of signs of life either. Now Laf didn’t show a ton of signs of life either, but Laf had more options to change it up than Kakko does currently.

Now that doesn’t mean we should give Kakko away (just like we shouldn’t have given Laf away) but this sounds a lot like a change of scene guy, especially with him on a very movable contract. I think if you can find a change of scene puck moving Dman, that’s a logical place to move Kakko too; we have wingers internally that we can try in those RW spots. But we do have other holes that need to be filled and limited currency to do so

 

[UnparalledPark]

Sorry but buying out Chytil makes sense how? If he’s out all year again can’t he go on LTIR which will provide cap relief?

What if he’s not out for the whole year. You can’t use his money because you don’t know when he will be back. Then he comes back for the playoffs and is useless again. Cut your losses.

 

[kovazub94]

It's fine to be disappointed, but when it goes to "Lets trade him for a 28 year old player who just matched his career high in points at 28, and also cost 1.6 more a season " it becomes ridiculous.

Even though I disagree with this trade I can’t call these proposals hate posts. Maybe I do t see all of it but it’s incompatible to hate posts that for example Panarin or Zibanejad get

 

[Luger]

It's fine to be disappointed, but when it goes to "Lets trade him for a 28 year old player who just matched his career high in points at 28, and also cost 1.6 more a season " it becomes ridiculous.

What I don't get more is the hate for Lindgren. I get that his style takes an early hit on a body, but the guy is only 3 years older than KK. I am not suggesting we give him a 7-year deal for a massive amount, but statements like, "signing him to any contract makes it a bad summer" are ridiculous. If we can get a favorable trade for him, no problem. But I'm not dumping him for a bag of pucks if he's willing to resign for 4x4 or something in that ballpark.

 

[RangerBoy]

Sorry but buying out Chytil makes sense how? If he’s out all year again can’t he go on LTIR which will provide cap relief?

LTIR isn't the panacea people make it out to be. Even if Chytil manages to stay healthy, how productive will Chytil be? The Rangers are looking to clear money to make other moves. They are looking at their options. Buying Chytil out at 1/3 is one of their options. Who are the Rangers acquiring with Chytil's long-term IR money? Not the next version of Wennberg and Roslovic.

 

[NYR Viper]

It's actually conceivable that Drury could make this team MORE difficult to play against, and really not even close, if he made a few key moves:

Lindgren and Trouba out
Kakko for Colton +
Sign Joshua
Let Edstrom play
Sign Dillon as a veteran LD
Sign Roy long term

Colton had 141 hits last year after 188 the year prior
Joshua is an animal with 245 hits after 222 the year prior
Dillon had 241 hits last year after 198 the year prior
Roy had 152 hits last year after 119 the year prior
Edstrom is a physical player in general. In 11 games, he had 30 hits. That's 223 hits over 82 games in ~8:25 of ice time per game

Obviously the team would have lost Goodrow (170 hits), Trouba (191 hits) and Lindgren (114 hits) but the cumulative effect I think would be an upgrade in the physicality department pretty considerably.

That's not even talking about the better on ice product.

Panarin-Trochek-Lafreniere
Kreider-Zibanejad-Chytil
Joshua-Colton-Berard
Edstrom-_______-Vesey/________

Dillon-Fox
Miller-Roy
Jones-Schneider


If Drury wants to keep building the team both to be better and more efficient moving the puck out of the zone and keep getting more physical and pressure oriented on the puck this would fit.

I also really think that 3rd line would be an absolute menace to play against...

 

[kovazub94]

What I don't get more is the hate for Lindgren. I get that his style takes an early hit on a body, but the guy is only 3 years older than KK. I am not suggesting we give him a 7-year deal for a massive amount, but statements like, "signing him to any contract makes it a bad summer" are ridiculous. If we can get a favorable trade for him, no problem. But I'm not dumping him for a bag of pucks if he's willing to resign for 4x4 or something in that ballpark.

As playoffs clearly showed in both situations the Rangers need a roster improvement if they want to take the next step. Unlike Kakko this can’t be accomplished unless the player is moved because keeping Lindgren (via new contract) AND signing a better partner for Fox will be cost prohibitive.

 

[NikC]

If the Rangers try to trade Chytil, all other teams will assume we know something they don't because the Rangers have more access to his medicals. They will assume they are buying on a guy who is ready to retire. We won't get anything of value. Better off seeing how his injury plays out long term.

Without Chytil, we don't have a 3rd line center. We'd end up spending whatever we are saving, and perhaps more, to replace him. If healthy, Chytil is likely better than whomever we would replace him with.

It's in our best interest to keep Chytil for at least 1 more year. If he gets hurt again, we have LTIR to work with. If he isn't effective, we can still buy him out next year at 1/3rd. But if he stays healthy and returns to form, he can help us win or be a trade chip to get someone who can help us win.

We're more likely to need that cap space next summer than this summer, so we're better off waiting to buy him out, if that's the route we end up going.

There is no... "Chytil at 3rd C"... forget it. it's not happening. This player cannot stay healthy and the NYR will be in the same position again... wasting resources on losers like Wennberg

 

[GAGLine]

There is no... "Chytil at 3rd C"... forget it. it's not happening. This player cannot stay healthy and the NYR will be in the same position again... wasting resources on losers like Wennberg

Who are you replacing him with then?

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

LTIR isn't the panacea people make it out to be. Even if Chytil manages to stay healthy, how productive will Chytil be? The Rangers are looking to clear money to make other moves. They are looking at their options. Buying Chytil out at 1/3 is one of their options. Who are the Rangers acquiring with Chytil's long-term IR money? Not the next version of Wennberg and Roslovic.

If Chytil is on LTIR for the rest of his contract they can exceed the salary cap by his full cap hit every season. Not 2/3rds. 100%. And they retain control of the player if he beats the odds and gets back on track. I dont understand the buyout logic at all.

 

[NYR Viper]

If Chytil is on LTIR for the rest of his contract they can exceed the salary cap by his full cap hit every season. Not 2/3rds. 100%. And they retain control of the player if he beats the odds and gets back on track. I dont understand the buyout logic at all.

Yeah but they don't accumulate cap space for the deadline this way. LTIR is nice, but I wouldn't want to do it every year for 3 more years...

 

[Ruggs225]

The thing is with Laf hate (I was certainly a part of it and was won over) was a lack of reasonable evidence. But let’s also consider, Laf needed a line change (into the two six playing with two all stars) AND a position change. Kakko has already been on every line, and he doesn’t have a left wing spot to run to and try that; and he definitely isn’t going center. So does he have those (for lack of a better word) escape routes that Lafreniere had last season. Lafreniere didn’t simply wake up on the right side of the bed.

If Kakko isn’t sticking with Kreider and Zibanejad; what exactly is the plan here? Where does he go? We tried shutdown line and he was still getting healthy scratched in the playoffs. Maybe you can pull it off with a better center than Wennberg but, there aren’t a ton of signs of life either. Now Laf didn’t show a ton of signs of life either, but Laf had more options to change it up than Kakko does currently.

Now that doesn’t mean we should give Kakko away (just like we shouldn’t have given Laf away) but this sounds a lot like a change of scene guy, especially with him on a very movable contract. I think if you can find a change of scene puck moving Dman, that’s a logical place to move Kakko too; we have wingers internally that we can try in those RW spots. But we do have other holes that need to be filled and limited currency to do so

Nobody has stuck with kreider and zib.

Maybe the answer is ti split them.

Also fwiw i think kakko has looked good with Chytil mostly. Kakko also has had injury problems.

I still think he can have a breakout year this year. He was trending that way the year before.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

People thinking both Trouba AND Lindgren will be moved in the same off-season are on some really good stuff.

 

[NYR Viper]

Who are you replacing him with then?

With my lineup above and using AFP projections, could the Rangers fit in Lafreniere, Miller and Shesterkin the following year? Obviously some of this will depend on what Cuylle and Edstrom get but would it be possible? Or does Colton + Joshua + Dillon + Roy make that impossible?

Those (3) players make ~$11.77m now. Worst case scenario, are we thinking:
$10m for Shesty
$8.5m for Lafreniere
$6m for Miller
= $24.5m total
So we need ~$13m in additional space

Of which, probably half of that comes from the cap increase right? So we need ~$6.5m in cap space

Does that sounds right?

 

[GAGLine]

If Chytil is on LTIR for the rest of his contract they can exceed the salary cap by his full cap hit every season. Not 2/3rds. 100%. And they retain control of the player if he beats the odds and gets back on track. I dont understand the buyout logic at all.

It's not exactly 100%. It varies based on how much the team is spending at the time he is placed on LTIR. And there are negatives to using LTIR cap space, which is why we've seen teams trade players who are LTIR-Retired.

LTIR isn't the panacea people make it out to be. Even if Chytil manages to stay healthy, how productive will Chytil be? The Rangers are looking to clear money to make other moves. They are looking at their options. Buying Chytil out at 1/3 is one of their options. Who are the Rangers acquiring with Chytil's long-term IR money? Not the next version of Wennberg and Roslovic.

Who are they acquiring with the money from a buyout?

I agree that a buyout is an option, I just don't think it's on the table this summer.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

It's not exactly 100%. It varies based on how much the team is spending at the time he is placed on LTIR. And there are negatives to using LTIR cap space, which is why we've seen teams trade players who are LTIR-Retired.


Who are they acquiring with the money from a buyout?

I agree that a buyout is an option, I just don't think it's on the table this summer.

Was just assuming Rangers will always spending to the cap

 

[GAGLine]

With my lineup above and using AFP projections, could the Rangers fit in Lafreniere, Miller and Shesterkin the following year? Obviously some of this will depend on what Cuylle and Edstrom get but would it be possible? Or does Colton + Joshua + Dillon + Roy make that impossible?

Use CapFriendly while you can to run the numbers. You mentioned Lindgren and Trouba out, though, and seem to be assuming nothing coming back in either of those deals. That could be true with Lindgren, but I highly doubt it's possible with Trouba.

The deal I've suggested and seen posted elsewhere is Trouba for Holl, who makes 3.4 mil for 2 more years. He could be bought out in year 2, saving a big more.

At least some of the players you are signing are likely to get more than AFP projects.

 

[mas0764]

There's really no reason to move Kakko unless he's part of a package for a headliner piece.

Flipping him to clear a whopping $2.4m in salary is pointless. Any replacement costs just as much.

Flipping him for a much older middle sixer is pointless. You are just getting a player who is at best a little bit better, a little bit better fit, perhaps, than what Kakko already is.

You have a lottery ticket that might turn into much, much more. Don't throw it away for marginal improvement.