Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part VIII: Autumn in New York

[Avery16]

Nash has been hurt. On pace for about 50 points. Regardless of injury, the ability is still there. Ridiculous to call him barely a 2nd liner. Laughable. Absolutely laughable.

He's been hurt three of the past four seasons. Why do you think his body will get more durable over time and not less?

 

[RGY]

In a vacuum, the hypothetical of moving Stepan for assets also makes this team worse in the short term. However, individual personnel decisions don't happen in a vacuum, they take into account the rest of the team. We know that we're a better team right now after moving Stepan, who was playing as a 1C. So you say the same cannot be accomplished by Gorton moving a middle six winger? That isn't logical at all.

STEPAN HELD MORE ****ING VALUE. WHAT IS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND?

Stepan to the Coyotes, is 27/28 year old CENTER with a cap hit they are hoping will look more reasonable as time goes on and other contracts are handed out. The Coyotes were also moving on from Doan and needed veteran leadership.

Stepan to the Rangers was a contract with term on it that they can get out from under now that someone is willing to pay quality assets for. They had to buyout Girardi and no one wants Staal. They didnt hold value.

This is not very hard to understand.

 

[RGY]

He's been hurt three of the past four seasons. Why do you think his body will get more durable over time and not less?

IT DOESNT ****ING MATTER. He has ONE YEAR LEFT. His cap hit is not a burden.

Give it a rest unless you have an idea of what teams would be willing to pay and who we could flip those assets for.

We will ALL wait.

 

[NickyFotiu]

No offense to anyone but even if Nash played 82 games (he has only done that 1 time in his career) he still would have scored less than 50 points in 3 of his last 4 seasons. I'm not bashing Nash but at some point you are what you are not what you might have done IF.....

His best season for us was our strike season when he put up a very good .95ppg

 

[Avery16]

IT DOESNT ****ING MATTER. He has ONE YEAR LEFT. His cap hit is not a burden.

Give it a rest unless you have an idea of what teams would be willing to pay and who we could flip those assets for.

We will ALL wait.

Dude, you can do whatever you want. I post my opinions on here, and I don't cater to requests unless I feel like it. You don't address anything I have said, and offer ALL CAPS DIATRIBES and issue ultimatums.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

No offense to anyone but even if Nash played 82 games (he has only done that 1 time in his career) he still would have scored less than 50 points in 3 of his last 4 seasons. I'm not bashing Nash but at some point you are what you are not what you might have done IF.....

His best season for us was our strike season when he put up a very good .95ppg

No value given to the fact that he's inarguably the team's best two-way player now that Stepan is gone? That's pretty valuable considering all of our centers need a map in the defensive zone.

 

[NickyFotiu]

No value given to the fact that he's inarguably the team's best two-way player now that Stepan is gone? That's pretty valuable considering all of our centers need a map in the defensive zone.

Playing good defense does have value but I was only commenting on his production because that was the way the previous conversation was leaning.

 

[nyr2k2]

No offense to anyone but even if Nash played 82 games (he has only done that 1 time in his career) he still would have scored less than 50 points in 3 of his last 4 seasons. I'm not bashing Nash but at some point you are what you are not what you might have done IF.....

His best season for us was our strike season when he put up a very good .95ppg

He was on pace for 49, 49 and 47 points in those seasons you referenced. So we can say that he projects to 48.3 points when healthy, if that changes the discussion.

 

[Hire Sather]

Nash is worth more to us than he'd fetch in a trade. All that needs to be said. I'm not punting the season in September. Have some pride.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He was on pace for 49, 49 and 47 points in those seasons you referenced. So we can say that he projects to 48.3 points when healthy, if that changes the discussion.

Fair point but do all healthy players play all 82 games a year? Last season we only had one player play all 82 games.

 

[offdacrossbar]

as an open nash critic, i have been pretty hard on him relative to production/dollar value quotient.

hes an overpaid underperformer imo.

he DOES however have value besides scoring although i think his pk skills are overplayed and do not believe he's anything close to our best pk guy.

he is what he is. an overpaid "goal scorer" who struggles to stay healthy and with perhaps one of the worst shots on the team and no ability to play the pp. he has limits and many holes in his game that are getting worse not better with age.

bottom line, he's not going anywhere. play him and hope he has a great season and then show him the door.

 

[nyr2k2]

Fair point but do all healthy players play all 82 games a year? Last season we only had one player play all 82 games.

No of course not. Almost no one plays 82 games in a year. But projections are always done based on a full season. Regardless, I wasn't being particularly serious.

 

[Gardner McKay]

In a vacuum, the hypothetical of moving Stepan for assets also makes this team worse in the short term. However, individual personnel decisions don't happen in a vacuum, they take into account the rest of the team. We know that we're a better team right now after moving Stepan, who was playing as a 1C. So you say the same cannot be accomplished by Gorton moving a middle six winger? That isn't logical at all.

We moved Stepan because we had someone we believed can take that spot with Zibanejad, because we got a good return (although I didn't feel that way at the time), and created tons of capspace in order for us to sign Shattenkirk. We aren't a better team if we don't use that space to sign Shattenkirk.

The return for Nash won't make us a better team now or anytime in the near future. The return for Stepan made us a better team now and in the near future (although it did hurt our offensive depth for the time being). The capspace created will not be used this season. Why trade him when have a team that will likely be a contender? Most importantly, if you aren't sure that we are a contendor why not wait until the trade deadline to see where we are as a team and when more teams will be able to afford his cap hit? That is the point and it is logical.

 

[Hire Sather]

And yeah he's overpaid. So what. Say we magically replace him and save 4 mill. Where we spending that? FO doesn't want Jagr and haven't for years.

 

[Off Sides]

The resistance to the Rangers adding in more prospects who plausibly project to be more than depth at the NHL level by moving Nash is ?

This is Nash, it's not Messier, Leetch or Lundqvist or some player who literally has the talent and drive to put a team on their back and lead them several playoff round wins.

If the Rangers can get a 1st for Nash, and have two 1sts this next draft to add to what they just picked up, to add to Zibanejad, Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Skjei, Deangelo, Vesey, Hayes, etc while McD, Shattenkirk, are still here.

That is a pretty solid mix of younger vets and up and coming talent who have a plausible chance to not only make the NHL but to play above the 3rd line or 3rd pair.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Dude, you can do whatever you want. I post my opinions on here, and I don't cater to requests unless I feel like it. You don't address anything I have said, and offer ALL CAPS DIATRIBES and issue ultimatums.

You can. The rest of the board can also criticize your opinions as much as they want (as long as it doesn't break the rules).

 

[nyr2k2]

And yeah he's overpaid. So what. Say we magically replace him and save 4 mill. Where we spending that? FO doesn't want Jagr and haven't for years.

That's the question. I don't want to trade him for picks, unless we're out of it. If we're trading him now it needs to be in a deal that makes us better now or allows for an immediate acquisition to make us better. I don't want to just move him now for prospects later because I think we're going to be very competitive this year, and removing him without replacing him wouldn't make sense.

 

[East Coast Bias]

No value given to the fact that he's inarguably the team's best two-way player now that Stepan is gone? That's pretty valuable considering all of our centers need a map in the defensive zone.

This is going to be an interesting theme going into this season.

Though it will probably all be blamed on Shattenkirk.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The resistance to the Rangers adding in more prospects who plausibly project to be more than depth at the NHL level by moving Nash is ?

This is Nash, it's not Messier, Leetch or Lundqvist or some player who literally has the talent and drive to put a team on their back and lead them several playoff round wins.

If the Rangers can get a 1st for Nash, and have two 1sts this next draft to add to what they just picked up, to add to Zibanejad, Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Skjei, Deangelo, Vesey, Hayes, etc while McD, Shattenkirk, are still here.

That is a pretty solid mix of younger vets and up and coming talent who have a plausible chance to not only make the NHL but to play above the 3rd line or 3rd pair.

It also weakens the teams chances of making the playoffs this season which, for better or for worse, is always the ultimate year to year goal of this franchise.

 

[haveandare]

The resistance to the Rangers adding in more prospects who plausibly project to be more than depth at the NHL level by moving Nash is ?

This is Nash, it's not Messier, Leetch or Lundqvist or some player who literally has the talent and drive to put a team on their back and lead them several playoff round wins.

If the Rangers can get a 1st for Nash, and have two 1sts this next draft to add to what they just picked up, to add to Zibanejad, Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Skjei, Deangelo, Vesey, Hayes, etc while McD, Shattenkirk, are still here.

That is a pretty solid mix of younger vets and up and coming talent who have a plausible chance to not only make the NHL but to play above the 3rd line or 3rd pair.

Literally nobody on this team is that type of player, maybe Hank but doubtful at this point. There are maybe a dozen of those players in the entire league the way things have flattened out recently. That doesn't mean the vast majority of players are of no value and would be better off being moved for picks.

It takes all kinds of players to have a good team, especially when you don't have one of the few dominant game breaking guys. The resistance to moving Nash for a 1st needlessly is that we don't have much forward depth this year and he's still a good, useful player with 1 year left on his deal.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Nash has more value to us in the Rangers lineup than what he would fetch in a trade at this time.

If we're talking as a rental, the only way that happens is if we're out of it and not going to make the playoffs and start tanking. Does anyone really think this is going to happen or want it to happen?

Ideally, Nash bounces back and has a great season for the Rangers and is a key player in the postseason. That is where he has the most value for us.

 

[Gardner McKay]

The resistance to the Rangers adding in more prospects who plausibly project to be more than depth at the NHL level by moving Nash is ?

This is Nash, it's not Messier, Leetch or Lundqvist or some player who literally has the talent and drive to put a team on their back and lead them several playoff round wins.

If the Rangers can get a 1st for Nash, and have two 1sts this next draft to add to what they just picked up, to add to Zibanejad, Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Skjei, Deangelo, Vesey, Hayes, etc while McD, Shattenkirk, are still here.

That is a pretty solid mix of younger vets and up and coming talent who have a plausible chance to not only make the NHL but to play above the 3rd line or 3rd pair.

The logic behind trading a top 6 player when you hope to compete for a cup is???

The logic behind trading a top 6 player prior to the trade deadline so you can see where you are as a team is???

(hint, there isn't any).

 

[nyr2k2]

The resistance to the Rangers adding in more prospects who plausibly project to be more than depth at the NHL level by moving Nash is ?

This is Nash, it's not Messier, Leetch or Lundqvist or some player who literally has the talent and drive to put a team on their back and lead them several playoff round wins.

If the Rangers can get a 1st for Nash, and have two 1sts this next draft to add to what they just picked up, to add to Zibanejad, Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Skjei, Deangelo, Vesey, Hayes, etc while McD, Shattenkirk, are still here.

That is a pretty solid mix of younger vets and up and coming talent who have a plausible chance to not only make the NHL but to play above the 3rd line or 3rd pair.

If we're out of it at the TDL I don't think anyone would be opposed to moving him for futures.

It seems that most of us believe the team can compete in a big way this year. If you believe that then it doesn't make sense to trade Nash for futures because you're weakening the team.

If there was a deal now involving Nash that made us better I'd definitely consider it. No one has really proposed one though. Nor has anyone proposed a series of events involving moving him now that make us better.

For those of us that think we can win a Cup, trading Nash now is illogical.

 

[Avery16]

We moved Stepan because we had someone we believed can take that spot with Zibanejad, because we got a good return (although I didn't feel that way at the time), and created tons of capspace in order for us to sign Shattenkirk. We aren't a better team if we don't use that space to sign Shattenkirk.

The return for Nash won't make us a better team now or anytime in the near future. The return for Stepan made us a better team now and in the near future (although it did hurt our offensive depth for the time being). The capspace created will not be used this season. Why trade him when have a team that will likely be a contender? Most importantly, if you aren't sure that we are a contendor why not wait until the trade deadline to see where we are as a team and when more teams will be able to afford his cap hit? That is the point and it is logical.

You can. The rest of the board can also criticize your opinions as much as they want (as long as it doesn't break the rules).

Ziabnejad was a replacement for Brassard, not for Stepan. Hayes is being elevated to 2C despite the lack of knowledge as to whether he can hold that position. A hole was created in our top-2 C to address another, actually glaring hole, RHS PPQB. Nash likewise could be moved to free up cap room, and that cap room could facilitate another deal for someone we project as middle-six C.

I never told anyone to not criticize my posts. Criticize away. I haven't criticize anyone for being critical of what I post. But don't tell me what to post and what not to post (as long as IAW applicable rules) and expect me to take you seriously. And if a criticism isn't responsive to something I actually said, yeah I might not respond because it wouldn't really make sense to adopt another person's adaptation of my argument.

 

[Gardner McKay]

If we're out of it at the TDL I don't think anyone would be opposed to moving him for futures.

It seems that most of us believe the team can compete in a big way this year. If you believe that then it doesn't make sense to trade Nash for futures because you're weakening the team.

If there was a deal now involving Nash that made us better I'd definitely consider it. No one has really proposed one though. Nor has anyone proposed a series of events involving moving him now that make us better.

For those of us that think we can win a Cup, trading Nash now is illogical.

I guess that is the thing...

We aren't all going to agree on whether this will be a competitive team or not which is absolutely fair. I can see why some folks may have doubts.

But, whether you believe we will be competitive or not, trading Nash well before the TDL doesn't make sense either way.