Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXII: “The Year of the Plague’s” last one...

[NYR Viper]

In a side conversation, I was saying that I don't feel comfortable giving up ADA plus a top prospect (be it Miller, Lundkvist, Kravtsov). To me, it's either/or.

You either get the established NHL talent, or get the potential of a top prospect. I don't like giving up both.

Admitedly, even ADA + Chytil has some serious potential to backfire. The saving grace being we have the depth to take that gamble.

Got it and that makes sense. The package concerns me but like you say, they have the depth to go for this IF they really like the player.

 

[Trxjw]

I dunno if ADA would be a top target for the Jackets. Throwing the big personality thing aside, where does he get his minutes? Are they really going to bump Jones and/or Werenski off the top PP unit when they both need new contracts in 2022? They also have Savard on their 2nd pairing, albeit only for one more year, but is Tortorella really going to roll Tony out there over Jones and Savard at even strength? In that system? Can't see it.

That being said, maybe JK knows a PLD trade will trigger a mass-exodus of his core and he's going to need replacements.

 

[Edge]

How did you view Mika before he broke out?

Similarly. Though in that case we were trading a soon to be 29 year old Brassard, so I really liked the deal.

PLD is the better, more complete player at a younger age. And could quite possibly see a similar peak as Zibanejad with time.

But that's hard "maybe" to put a premium on.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I like Dubois but I’m not keen on moving Chytil. Feel like the Rangers move him it’s going to bite them in the ass.

DeAngelo I’m fine moving for Dubois, he’s an inevitability to be moved and I’d rather it be for PLD than someone like Monahan

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Does anyone else miss when we'd get updates for trades under Sather. Gorton's a mute. Probably better for the franchise but has made following this team less interesting.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I dunno if ADA would be a top target for the Jackets. Throwing the big personality thing aside, where does he get his minutes? Are they really going to bump Jones and/or Werenski off the top PP unit when they both need new contracts in 2022? They also have Savard on their 2nd pairing, albeit only for one more year, but is Tortorella really going to roll Tony out there over Jones and Savard at even strength? In that system? Can't see it.

That being said, maybe JK knows a PLD trade will trigger a mass-exodus of his core and he's going to need replacements.

I'd be cool with Chytil+Nils as a base too.

 

[Kendo]

As we approach the opening of our window, the only real gap we have is center ice. We have a team and a half's worth of wingers, a great and youngish goalie tandem, and the defense will work itself out by in-house options over time (not that we couldn't use a stop-gap LD right now and probably for next season). So looking at our center depth:

Mika - I love the guy, and we got him in a steal even if he stayed a 2C level player and never took that step forward (that he most certainly DID). Still, his next contract starts at age 29 and there are some long term health concerns. He may very well end up a "transitional" player for us in the history books and not be a part of our next "contending" team. If we can find a young enough 2C to groom, and Mika signs for let's say 5 years, then there's probably a contract number that makes sense to have him be part of our next core.

Chytil - Great kid, but I'm just not convinced that he's an NHL center. There's still a chance that he actually learns how to take faceoffs, develops his playmaking side, and becomes that 2C behind Mika thereby solving all of our problems, but he may just stay a middle-six utility forward that you can plug in as a wing on other lines or keep in the 3C to work on that role further. A Fast with a little more offense and can maybe play C. Which wouldn't actually be a bad outcome for him individually.

Strome - He's much-maligned, but a great fit as a stop-gap guy for this and next season. I doubt Seattle would take him as a 1-yr guy, so he can be exposed easily. Not a big deal if they take him, regardless. If there's no trade to be made this deadline or next, and he goes unclaimed in expansion, I don't actually mind if he's a "self-rental" for the '22 playoffs (our first real kick at the can). He can walk with a hearty handshake and thanks.

Howden - I don't really mind if a coach has a "12th forward pet project." He's young, eager, has a bigger frame, a good motor...he's just not very good at hockey at the NHL level. He doesn't count as "center depth" when talking about the organization quite yet. I would have rather had Athanasiou as the 4C and stick Howden on the right most of the time. Fight it out with Barron.

Barron/Henriksson/Vierling/one of the NCAA UFA - We just don't have NHL center depth now or on the horizon, unless Zibanejad signs a team-friendly deal and stays relatively healthy, Chytil develops into a 2C over the next two seasons, AND one of this cluster becomes a real 3C.

We need to go out and GET someone.

 

[Edge]

I dunno if ADA would be a top target for the Jackets. Throwing the big personality thing aside, where does he get his minutes? Are they really going to bump Jones and/or Werenski off the top PP unit when they both need new contracts in 2022? They also have Savard on their 2nd pairing, albeit only for one more year, but is Tortorella really going to roll Tony out there over Jones and Savard at even strength? In that system? Can't see it.

That being said, maybe JK knows a PLD trade will trigger a mass-exodus of his core and he's going to need replacements.

I personally don't think there's going to be a ton of interest in ADA from Columbus. Part of me feels like that might be overly optmistic and a way of shielding against the possibility that an offer is likely to include some young talent we really, really like.

Not that ADA isn't liked, but I feel like most people at least have come to terms with the idea that he could be moved to fill other needs and that the Rangers have younger, cheaper talent they can backfill the blue line with.

I think it's harder for the average fan to say goodbye to, for example, Chytil and Miller at this point.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

They also have Savard on their 2nd pairing, albeit only for one more year, but is Tortorella really going to roll Tony out there over Jones and Savard at even strength? In that system? Can't see it.

No chance. The fit isn’t great you’re right

I feel like the Blue Jackets almost have to be targeting a center in return. Who is gonna be their top line center?

Domi? Does he even play center most of the time?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I personally don't think there's going to be a ton of interest in ADA from Columbus. Part of me feels like that might be overly optmistic and a way of shielding against the possibility that an offer is likely to include some young talent we really, really like.

Not that ADA isn't liked, but I feel like most people at least have come to terms with the idea that he could be moved to fill other needs and that the Rangers have younger, cheaper talent they can backfill the blue line with.

I think it's harder for the average fan to say goodbye to, for example, Chytil and Miller at this point.

How often do you see two assets like Chytil and Miller getting moved in a trade, no matter for whom? At most it's one top asset and a #1, maybe some lower assets.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Kakko is not a chip, he's a foundation.

So is PLD.

 

[duhmetreE]

Calling PLD a 40 pt player without Panarin is one of the most disingenuous things I've read on here in quite some time

I thought it was obvious. He has been a 40 pt player without Panarin ≠ he will be a 40pts player the rest of his career. Was meant to temper expectations and what it'd cost.

He's a good young center. He was good in the post season and has good potential. NOT Kakko + ADA/Lundkvist type of potential ( the literal offer that was quoted. ) If someone is offering Kakko + ADA they are romanticizing PLD into something he is not. Hence, he's been a 40pts player without Panarin.

I'm sure he'd be stoked to play with Lafreniere.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

So is PLD.

A foundation piece who wants out of his organization.

Name the last time a guy who was in his situation returned top talent?

 

[TominNC]

So is PLD.

So you trade pieces for their guy who wants out, not OUR foundation player.

 

[Edge]

t

How often do you see two assets like Chytil and Miller getting moved in a trade, no matter for whom? At most it's one top asset and a #1, maybe some lower assets.

Not often.

But in the same breath, how often do you see 22 year old players like Dubois being moved and teams with the young talent depth the Rangers do?

Typically you see someone like Dubois either moved for an established star, who is still in their pime, or a for a similarly aged player with a pedigree.

You don't normally see them traded for 21st picks who post as many total points as Dubois scores goals, and a kid 2.5 years out from being the 22nd pick in a draft and without NHL experience.

So at some point, you run into the potential for any conversations to be a little different than what is normally seen. That could happen here, but that's unknown.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I thought it was obvious. He has been a 40 pt player without Panarin ≠ he will be a 40pts player the rest of his career. Was meant to temper expectations and what it'd cost.

He's a good young center. He was good in the post season and has good potential. NOT Kakko + ADA/Lundkvist type of potential ( the literal offer that was quoted. ) If someone is offering Kakko + ADA they are romanticizing PLD into something he is not. Hence, he's been a 40pts player without Panarin.

I'm sure he'd be stoked to play with Lafreniere.

Just an FYI - There were nuisances to my my proposal that you're neglecting to consider. I had a pretty large "IF" and that was if NYR brass believe that PLD is the real deal and the #1 Center of the future, then you consider a package like what you stated here. If they see large risk, then obviously they don't go that hard after him.

The point of the post was more to just make a statement that if they are really that high on this kid, they should go after him aggressively. If they share some of the concerns of you and others, I agree, pump the brakes and don't overpay.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I thought it was obvious. He has been a 40 pt player without Panarin ≠ he will be a 40pts player the rest of his career. Was meant to temper expectations and what it'd cost.

He's a good young center. He was good in the post season and has good potential. NOT Kakko + ADA/Lundkvist type of potential ( the literal offer that was quoted. ) If someone is offering Kakko + ADA they are romanticizing PLD into something he is not. Hence, he's been a 40pts player without Panarin.

I'm sure he'd be stoked to play with Lafreniere.

My point is he had a 48 point rookie season, then 49 in 70 last year (which would put his pace at 4 points less than the season he played with Panarin), if you're trying to temper expectations with calling him a 40 point player you're just going as far in the opposite direction

 

[Trxjw]

I personally don't think there's going to be a ton of interest in ADA from Columbus. Part of me feels like that might be overly optmistic and a way of shielding against the possibility that an offer is likely to include some young talent we really, really like.

Not that ADA isn't liked, but I feel like most people at least have come to terms with the idea that he could be moved to fill other needs and that the Rangers have younger, cheaper talent they can backfill the blue line with.

I think it's harder for the average fan to say goodbye to, for example, Chytil and Miller at this point.

Yeah, I think you're right in that. ADA has certainly solidified himself as "the" trade piece in the eyes of a lot of people based on previous rumors and the RHD depth.

Having a hard time wrapping my head around the Jackets settling for pieces in this deal though. I feel like they'll hold out until the fall at the very least if they can't get a comparable talent back in a "hockey trade" like they did with Jones/Johansen.

I'm also really curious about which teams spoke to PLD this summer. If Gorts was one of the guys who spoke to him, planting that "take your pick of Panarin, Lafreniere, Kreider, and Kakko as your line mates" seed into his head must've been pretty sweet.

 

[duhmetreE]

t

Not often.

But in the same breath, how often do you see 22 year old players like Dubois being moved and teams with the young talent depth the Rangers do?

Typically you see someone like Dubois either moved for an established star, who is still in their pime, or a for a similarly aged player with a pedigree.

You don't normally see them traded for 21st picks who post as many total points as Dubois scores goals, and a kid 2.5 years out from being the 22nd pick in a draft and without NHL experience.

So at some point, you run into the potential for any conversations to be a little different than what is normally seen. That could happen here, but that's unknown.

Like it was said before... Zibanejad

I think Chytil would have to be 100% a part of the deal. They'd need a long term controllable asset. I think Torts could make him into a great hockey player. All players would need to be controllable even though PLD is 'controllable' but wants out.

Chytil, Reunanen/Hajek and Henrikson seems fair to me

 

[Edge]

So is PLD.

The question could also come down to where do you see both guys in three years, six years, nine years.

Dubois has the experience under his belt. We've seen him score 27 goals and 61 points. On the flipside, we've also seen him score 18 goals and 49 points.

Kakko is the unknown, but was/is seen as being a Barkov type player. But he isn't there yet. He could also be half that type of player.

So ultimately, it depends on how one values upside vs. production thus far, and how one views the finished product.

Does one believe Kakko's upside is indeed 30 goals and 90 points? Is he less than that? More than that?

Does one believe Dubois' upside is 30 goals and 80 points? Is he less than that? More than that?

Those are the factors to consider from a talent perspective. Beyond that, one has to factor in contracts and whether you'd like to start paying Dubois $8 million in a couple of years, or see if you can push similar numbers out to about 2026 with Kakko?

I don't have an answer for that, but it's some of what the Rangers will have to decide on.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

@Edge how much does the fact that CLB desperately needs to restock their cupboard here because of their ill fated chips push in play into this? They have one of the worst prospect pools in the league and didn't necessarily make a splash during the 2020 draft.

 

[duhmetreE]

@Edge how much does the fact that CLB desperately needs to restock their cupboard here because of their ill fated chips push in play into this? They have one of the worst prospect pools in the league and didn't necessarily make a splash during the 2020 draft.

It's only going to get worse with Jones leaving as an UFA in 2 years time. I dont see a reason for him to stay there, when he can go wherever he wants

 

[Edge]

@Edge how much does the fact that CLB desperately needs to restock their cupboard here because of their ill fated chips push in play into this? They have one of the worst prospect pools in the league and didn't necessarily make a splash during the 2020 draft.

So even before PLD became a thing, there was some divided opinion on the Blue Jackets.

You'd talk to some people who insisted the Blue Jackets were in a win-now mode and needed pieces to capitalize on the prime, or advancing toward prime talent they had.

You'd talk to other people who felt the team had already been gutted somewhat and needed to do a more extensive re-tool that brought in depth of talent. In a nutshell to take 2-3 players and turn them into 6-10 really intriguing assets.

Personally, I leaned toward the latter even before the PLD situation. In the aftermath of recent news, I can't help but feel that they're probably better off pursuing young talent that is start to take off, or that can step into the NHL immediately or soon, and then be set to really climb in a year or two.

But I can say that without my ass being the one that's on the line.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

It's only going to get worse with Jones leaving as a UFA in 2 years time. I dont see a reason for him to stay there, when he can go wherever he wants

Yeah I don't see them retaining either him or Werenski at this point, especially if Torts is still there. It's right at the time where the players start tuning him out. His schtick only goes so far these days.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Columbus needs to dump torts.... its time.