Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXIX

[rangers1314]

sounds good but idk if firsts are the goal anymore. especially playoff team firsts. I think we'd want roster players or players on the brink.

Well this is where I put on the tinfoil hat...so say the rangers trade Brady and CK and now have 3 1st's. You could in theory then use those picks for those roster/soon to be roster players at the draft OR use them as ammo to try to trade down lower into the first round.

 

[NYSPORTS]

That’s what Sather said and....

Respectfully, one has nothing to do with the other. (but we all know Sather talked a big game)

One traded a stud RP to a desperate team for their best prospect and then resigned him

the other goes out and signs a Wade Redden for a fortune, extends a Marc Staal on the back nine, signs an aging Drury and a system based Scott Gomez, etc, etc.

Sather was as bad and maximizing dollars as Don Shula was at building a defense and running game for Marino IMO. Let’s face it, the Pacific Northwest had some unknown gems and he did it even have to draft Gretzky.

 

[kovazub94]

I still have no idea why we would be trading Strome when he is under control, 26, can play any forward position on a team lacking forwards, and has great chemistry with Panarin. I dont get it.

Yup. The offer for Strome has to overwhelm for it to make sense trading him.

Assuming Gorton talked to Colorado about moving Kreider but not liking what they offer back (but now knowing whatever pieces they are willing to move), on the other hand maybe it would be a good return for Strome that Colorado is forced to make with the lost of Kadri.

 

[BHD]

I'm not sure how closely Rangers fans (in the States) follow TSN, but they caught this...

 

[NYSPORTS]

12 days until TDL, Gorton must be at least 5 cups of coffee deep rn

honestly, I feel more confident with JD as President and guaranteed there is more than Gordon’s mind running this deadline.

 

[Tossed Medal]

It is a lot yet, respectfully, the kids have to be the replacements.

Kakko has to take the place of Kreider. I think we all anticipate he will
The return for Kreider has to be significant enough to replace at least Buch
Kraskov has to be a better player than Fast (I know it’s not apples to apples style)

I don’t think we’re going to be able to pay Kreider, and extend Buch and extend Fast and then pay Kakko and company down he road. The Fox’s aren’t going to be cheap forever and we already have Panarin, Zibby and Trouba making some nice coin. You have to trust in the system and rotate the stock. Maybe not all of them but I’m thinking at least Kreider and one or the other two.

To clarify Kaako does not have an elite shot or skating . Not to say he won’t develop into a good player but his skating lacks explosiveness and his shot is a muffin . He protects the puck well I’ll give him that . He does absolutely zero around the net . I hope as he matures he can find some ground game in the blue paint because all I see is a perimeter player with nice stick handling that doesn’t have separation speed at the NHL LEVEL .

 

[hi]

All this talk of the Rangers franchise not being able to win without Kreider is bordering on hysteria at this point.

Are we talking about the same franchise that's traded Ryan McDonagh, Mats Zuccarello, Derek Stepan, JT Miller, Kevin Hayes, Rick Nash, Michael Grabner and others in the past 3 years? Because if that's the team we are talking about, that team is currently tied for the 4th most regulation wins in the NHL without all of those players. The Rangers franchise won't fold if Chris Kreider is traded.

 

[NYSPORTS]

To clarify Kaako does not have an elite shot or skating . Not to say he won’t develop into a good player but his skating lacks explosiveness and his shot is a muffin . He protects the puck well I’ll give him that . He does absolutely zero around the net . I hope as he matures he can find some ground game in the blue paint because all I see is a perimeter player with nice stick handling that doesn’t have separation speed at the NHL LEVEL .

we’ll see. I’m hoping for the best yet I’m a little uneasy that I see what you see. I was expecting a freight train, sharp shooter and elite passer.

Meanwhile in Jersey, Justin Bieber isn’t exactly reminding me of Crosby.

 

[East Coast Bias]

there's a lot up in the air with what happens with this team but I do not think you can trade all of Kreider, Fast, and Buch. We are already very short on NHL caliber forwards and some of these proposals to basically trade half of them or let them walk seem short sighted. It's not like our pool is brimming with potential replacements (even if they were it's not like Quinn would dare get creative).

This is where I'm at. I assume the goal is to get better next season. Be competitive for the playoff race.

If we lose 2 or 3 of Fast/Kreider/Buch, an already weak forward core is a bad core. Unless Kakko and Chytil take huge steps forward, and Kravtsov hits the ground running. That's a lot of ifs. Otherwise you have to supplement with FA talent.

this is with UFAs walking.

X - Zib - Buch
Panarin - Strome - X
Krav - Chytil - Kakko
Lemiuex - Howden - Di Giuseppe

 

[Crease]

All this talk of the Rangers franchise not being able to win without Kreider is bordering on hysteria at this point.

Are we talking about the same franchise that's traded Ryan McDonagh, Mats Zuccarello, Derek Stepan, JT Miller, Kevin Hayes, Rick Nash, Michael Grabner and others in the past 3 years? Because if that's the team we are talking about, that team is currently tied for the 4th most regulation wins in the NHL without all of those players. The Rangers franchise won't fold if Chris Kreider is traded.

I guess my question is when do we want the Rangers to transition from rebuilding to building? Is Kreider the last guy we want the Rangers to trade for futures or are we going to be pounding this drum again in two years when Zibanejad and ADA approach free agency. At some point the Rangers will need to stop thinking about replacing production and focus on adding to it. Having guys like Kakko and Kravtsov in the system doesn't improve a bad team if you keep trading away the only productive NHLers on the roster.

 

[Tossed Medal]

we’ll see. I’m hoping for the best yet I’m a little uneasy that I see what you see. I was expecting a freight train, sharp shooter and elite passer.

Meanwhile in Jersey, Justin Bieber isn’t exactly reminding me of Crosby.

Kaako needs to do whatever Spezza and Tavares did for their skating . Although he’s a wing he has a similar build and stick handling in close quarters of both players who incidentally cane with skating being the one question mark on thete game . Kaako def needs work on his separation speed explosiveness and edge work . He def has the hands and confidence with the puck but at this point I don’t see the athleticism in his game . I know he’s only 18 but if he doesn’t improve his skating I don’t see the impact player we were hoping for . He very well may be a power play specialist and or solid top 9 forward but doesn’t seem elite . As for Hughes he has all the tools except does nit have the frame or Sid or McDavid he’s built much more slightly .

 

[Ghost of jas]

You know, the phrase ‘difficult to replace’ is not interchangeable with the term ‘irreplaceable ‘.

 

[BKGooner]

My opinion - this deadline should be the sell off.Let the stew marinate and add seasoning as it cooks.

 

[Edge]

You know, the phrase ‘difficult to replace’ is not interchangeable with the term ‘irreplaceable ‘.

I agree.

And I also agree when the former is used, and wince when the latter is used.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I guess my question is when do we want the Rangers to transition from rebuilding to building? Is Kreider the last guy we want the Rangers to trade for futures or are we going to be pounding this drum again in two years when Zibanejad and ADA approach free agency. At some point the Rangers will need to stop thinking about replacing production and focus on adding to it.

I see your point, but I really do think some of these will be a case by case basis.

But the immediate answer, in my opinion, is the Rangers need to be really careful through next season, which is cap hellish if Lundqvist remains on the books and having to deal with the teeth of the Shattenkirk buy-out. It doesn't seem pertinent to start handing out long-term deals right now.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I gotta be honest guys I’m exhausted by the discourse around trading Kreider at this point. The deadline needs to come already haha

It’s the same thing with Zucc last year

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

This reminds me of the "OMG. We're getting Sergachev for McDonagh" stuff

Well, that probably should've happened

 

[NYSPORTS]

for Hughes he has all the tools except does nit have the frame or Sid or McDavid he’s built much more slightly .

My concern with him, he doesn’t have the shot. Nobody had to train Gretzky or Crosby. That shot was there the moment they arrived to the NHL. The puck exploded off their sticks. This Hughes shot is not lighting. He himself said he had to work on his shot and that would concern me.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Hughes has already missed time this year due to getting smushed.

It's going to be an issue for him. He has a habit of getting steamrolled.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I agree.

And I also agree when the former is used, and wince when the latter is used.

And just to go back to a related discussion we've had on this topic, if you move Buchnevich and Skjei to keep Kreider, which is my preference, you only need to replace Skjei’s production. You’re either giving up Buchnevich’s production or Kreider’s, so approximately 59 points is going out the door regardless. And, I think Buchnevich is the easier player to replace, especially considering my faith in Kravtsov as a piece going forward.

 

[haveandare]

But again, is the goal to replace him?

The odds of finding another first line LW to play on our second line aren't high. But does it have to be a first line LW who fills that role? And does it have to be a 7x7 player, or someone who brings exactly what Kreider brings?

I'm not sure the best path forward is having someone who is over-qualified for the LW, and is paid for being over-qualified, as opposed to having resources in different positions. Because at the end of the day, all things are not equal --- including price tags.

The goal should be to have two top 6 LWs in the top 6. Panarin is one. Kreider is another. Behind Kreider we have what? Howden? Lemieux? Maybe Kravstov in some time if he pans out to that level and switches wings? Aside from Kravstov with some serious ifs, we have nobody even in the organization today that might be able to fill the spot. And based on what values are being suspected for rentals this year, the odds of getting that player and a first in return for Kreider are slim at best.

I don’t think he’s overqualified. He’s a 50ish point player who brings some unique skills. Those qualifications are very much in line with his role. We’re not talking about a ppg player here.

If this team is going to improve and be competitive in a few years, imo keeping Kreider is very important to that.

 

[Edge]

And just to go back to a related discussion we've had on this topic, if you move Buchnevich and Skjei to keep Kreider, which is my preference, you only need to replace Skjei’s production. You’re either giving up Buchnevich’s production or Kreider’s, so approximately 59 points is going out the door regardless. And, I think Buchnevich is the easier player to replace, especially considering my faith in Kravtsov as a piece going forward.

Eh, I don't agree with that.

I think that works if you're trading them for nothing, because you're going to get salary back for those guys. So I think there's this illusion that trading them brings all kinds of freedom, and if it's a good trade that actually helps this club, I don't think it brings that much.

I also don't agree with the belief that trading Skjei is merely a matter of production, or that this roster is necessarily better having Kreider over Skjei and Buch (or how they would be used in roster moves moving forward.)

 

[Edge]

The goal should be to have two top 6 LWs in the top 6. Panarin is one. Kreider is another. Behind Kreider we have what? Howden? Lemieux? Maybe Kravstov in some time if he pans out to that level and switches wings? Aside from Kravstov with some serious ifs, we have nobody even in the organization today that might be able to fill the spot. And based on what values are being suspected for rentals this year, the odds of getting that player and a first in return for Kreider are slim at best.

I don’t think he’s overqualified. He’s a 50ish point player who brings some unique skills. Those qualifications are very much in line with his role. We’re not talking about a ppg player here.

If this team is going to improve and be competitive in a few years, imo keeping Kreider is very important to that.

Kreider is a first line LW no?

A $7 million contract is first line LW money no?

So you are neither getting a second line LW, nor paying for one at that price. That is why it's a challenge. If he were a second line LW, we would not be debating this point because he would not be commanding $7 million on the open market and the Rangers would've already signed him for a second line money.

And here's the funny thing, in one breath we're talking about a 50ish point player with some unique skills, who clearly isn't a ppg player, in the next I have people talking about we can never find someone like him, or that replacing him is going to be some monumental task.

The player you just described in the first part of the last paragraph, does not match the description that a handful of people are trying to sell others on in the second part of that paragraph.

 

[kovazub94]

In the first 25 games of the season before December Buchnevich had 19 points, 0.76 ppg.
During "no puck luck" December he played 14 game and had a total of 2 points, 0.14 ppg.
So far since the start of 2020 Buchnevich played 16 games with 12 points, 0.75 ppg.
Overall 33 points in 55 games, 0.6 ppg, at age 24 (even with December being a BIG outlier).

P.S. Compare to Kreider's age 24 production.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Eh, I don't agree with that.

I think that works if you're trading them for nothing, because you're going to get salary back for those guys. So I think there's this illusion that trading them brings all kinds of freedom, and if it's a good trade that actually helps this club, I don't think it brings that much.

I also don't agree with the belief that trading Skjei is merely a matter of production, or that this roster is necessarily better having Kreider over Skjei and Buch (or how they would be used in roster moves moving forward.)

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say? If you move Kreider, you need to replace 50+ points, which is near what you need to replace if you move Buchnevich to keep Kreider. That’s basically a wash production-wise. If you have to move Skjei to keep Kreider, that’s the production that needs to be replaced. If you end end getting another player on ELC, then even that production could possibly be replaced.

As for Kreider as opposed to Skjei/Buchnevich making the Rangers a better team, we’ll just agree to disagree.